And Then There Was Silence...

[unpronounced]

[quote name='Mark Ashton' timestamp='1297177967' post='2625689']
meh becomes my favourite word in this game: meh.

I don't think it's smart to compare the losses of two uneven alliances in two uneven situations. If you want to compare them you'd need to take the percentage of each nation taking out and receiving damage. (to the TFD guy)

However MHA really has no ground to brag about this victory. I mean come on..
[/quote]

Mission: Take the heat off Sparta. - Mission accomplished. That's all I brag (no NS and stats talk).

[darkfox]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1297173495' post='2625645']
There's 13 pages right here showing you that Carpe Diem was planning a 3rd wave and were given the impression that you were too. Remind me never to take any military advice from you. Ta.
[/quote]

Generally an alliance only puts a fraction of their nations in peacemode for a later blitz. CD came in with most their upper tiers in peacemode. Does that mean they weren't planning another wave? Course not. However I don't see the wisdom in limping in and blitzing with your stronger nations later on in this situation. Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to try to do a lot of damage right away to give the defending alliance something to think about?



The only thing I see here is bad communication between Aztec/TFD and CD. I am also pretty disappointed in CD's behavior in this thread. If you didn't want peace then why are your signatures up there? There are claims that you had no say. Had you even tried to contact any of the alliances fighting prior to this to get the low down? Shoot you even have the ability to reenter if your treaty partners get hit. Its just bad form and you guys should be better than this.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='unpronounced' timestamp='1297178858' post='2625704']
Mission: Take the heat off Sparta. - Mission accomplished. That's all I brag (no NS and stats talk).
[/quote]

Mission: Take the heat off NV. - Mission accomplished.

I guess we can all be smug then?

Edited February 8, 2011 by Mayzie

[Joe32320]

Correct me if I'm wrong, CD was preparing to go onto the NPO front, when WAPA was hit by MHA, hence why their upper tier was in PM.

Beyond that IDK what happened but thats why CD upper tier was in PM at the start

[OldSelf]

As CD never talked to us at any time whatsoever (that I'm aware of) there's little source for these impressions. Any plans they had are a matter for themselves and whomever they were talking to, I've already said my piece and won't begrudge them further.

Also, Ta.

[Walker Texas Ranger]

[quote name='The Iggy' timestamp='1297151306' post='2625487']
Had a good fight with MHA, my opponents all fought well except for one notable exception who made a false surrender to me I am taking up with MHA gov and trust an amenable solution. Big MHAil to them.


I'm not going to quote the numerous CD posts, so I present a response in prose;

Kindly get out. You talk about non-consultation and helping your allies. You did neither. you declared late (I suppose you were busy getting every.single.nation into peace mode). While WAPA, Colossus and TFD were fully engaged (TFD alone had 300-400 wars with MHA) you were sitting in peace mode. I bet you enjoyed watching MHA charts plummet, comtemplating your victorious ride. Too bad you couldn't do anything for days after your declaration because you 100% peacemoded against an already engaged MHA. And frankly, you wouldn't have done anything if that is any indication of your competency. The damage was meted out by nations going all out. As for whether you signed the peace agreement or not, I have no idea, you had your chance to get involved and blew it- That's on your own heads. Perhaps you'll learn your lesson for another an ally you'll likely be positioned to assist later.

You went to foot around the matter of a destructive war and you got the respite you so wanted. After that, you have no position to come in here and $%^@#.
[/quote]

And you're a fool. We entered this war believing it would be a long-term war, for at least several weeks, if not a month or more. You don't drop your entire alliance into a war right off the bat. Maybe TFD would have done better if they had learned to stagger their attacks. We were backup. We declared a DAY late. Apparently that was an awful long time to wait!

As for "blowing" our chance, you apparently lack the ability to read the previous posts. We had no choice. It was either sign or be left to fight MHA alone. We're crazy, not stupid.

[erikz]

[Dr. Phill mode]
Congrats on peace y'all!
[/Dr. Phill mode]

[OldSelf]

I made posts since you should read, but do keep in mind I harp on my own government as much as I do anyone else

I always sympathise with reasons for things going awry, but that's what redundancies and keeping your options open are about. You had your problems, but don't blame us for them. And indeed we can always do better, but it was little to do with staggering concerns.

[darkfox]

[quote name='Walker Texas Ranger' timestamp='1297179288' post='2625717']
As for "blowing" our chance, you apparently lack the ability to read the previous posts. We had no choice. It was either sign or be left to fight MHA alone. We're crazy, not stupid.
[/quote]

So you are saying WAPA would leave you in the war had you not signed? Did you guys not do any protests? Hell did you guys even bother talking to the other alliances on your side involved in this [s]surrender[/s] peace?

AZTEC, NATO and TFD entered to get Sparta off NV's back. Sparta backed off. I don't see why CD is so angry. AZTEC and Co accomplished their goal and you guys can bow out gracefully with a couple scratches and are ready to help any ally who needs it. Yet here you are whining and complaining about not being able to fight longer. Or are you guys just mad that you weren't included more?

Edited February 8, 2011 by darkfox

[pigsticker]

[quote name='Dr.Gamer' timestamp='1297171788' post='2625629']
Lets see. TFD is an alliance of 150. MHA is an alliance of 600-something.
TFD lost 1.2 million NS throughout our entire conflict (11 days), MHA lost 2 million within four or five days.
You were 8 times our NS, yet we did more damage to you than you did to us on the front.
Not only did you have an average 3 MHA'ers to 1 TFD'er, but the TFD'er also had a Spartan opponent or two.
I think its the other way around Mister. Plus, many MHA'ers had awful warchests, work on that next time, k? Thanks.
[/quote]
That is correct, but when nukes come into play, there's really not much strategy in play.
On a 3 on 1 situation with the 1 turtling, the most the 3 can do is 6 air attacks, 6 cruise missiles and a single nuke.
In contrast, that one guy can nuke all 3 opponents, send 6 air attacks and 6 cruise missiles.
(Ok, i didn't factor in SDIs but that would really be too much effort)

In a conventional war, I would agree that these stats are awful. But in a nuclear war? The nukes are the great equaliser.

I guess i could state average NS lost per nation per day, going by your stats, the average TFD nation lost around 727ns per day
while the average MHA nation lost between 666-833ns (average 740) per day. So whose victory is that?
Stats are good, anyone can twist them to present the viewpoint they are trying to reinforce as I have done here.

But as Duncan King pointed out, the longer the war continued, TFD would only suffer more than MHA.
I'm already in a position to nuke all your lower-tier nations w/o nukes. Is that what you want for your alliance?
We may lose more ns than you but we definitely have the greater capability to recover much faster than you.
In the end, continuing the war will just be a pyrrhic victory to TFD.
We [b]may[/b] lose the war, but it will be a long time before you could even fight at your current level.

Anyway, peace is great. Now i can go back to my hobby of hugging my precious infra

Cheers

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Walker Texas Ranger' timestamp='1297179288' post='2625717']
And you're a fool. We entered this war believing it would be a long-term war, for at least several weeks, if not a month or more. You don't drop your entire alliance into a war right off the bat. Maybe TFD would have done better if they had learned to stagger their attacks. We were backup. We declared a DAY late. Apparently that was an awful long time to wait!

As for "blowing" our chance, you apparently lack the ability to read the previous posts. We had no choice. It was either sign or be left to fight MHA alone. We're crazy, not stupid.
[/quote]


If you are so mad about this why dont you reconsider and ask to have CD signature out of the peace terms? I believe you would be allowed to continue war since this is what you want.

Simple right?

[GearHead]

Well, CD, I dunno what to say.

First you start your amazing crusade with most of your AA in peace mode - most of which just jumped in.
Secondly, you failed to attend the peace negotiations, forfeiting any ability to object in real time.
Thirdly, as one of the main negotiators for our side taking requests and orders for the terms from all parties, I never heard any complaints from or about CD at any time before this announcement was posted.
Finally, the terms were signed and sigs delivered without a peep from your mouths. If you sign something, don't go and complain about it afterwards - *especially* if you never objected before you signed it.

Look, you failed to properly communicate any of these pent up feelings when it could have perhaps made a difference. Bashing those who negotiated on our side's behalf after the fact is just retarded. Go home guys. Without contributing to peace talks or even to the war, you have no leverage here.

With that rant done, I'd like to give a very large thanks and hail to our allies and friends we did fight alongside, as well as a courteous nod to our opponents. It's been fun. o/

[The Last Imperial]

MHA it was fun fighting you even though it didnt last that long.

And now to those of you wondering why CD has so much to say on this, do you not realize that we did enter this fight to defend our allies, and love to defend all of our allies, and just because WAPA got peace dose not mean all our allies got peace, NSO and ASU both are still fighting in a war, that has nothing to do with the fight we just peaced out of, but because of these terms we can not go and fight for NSO or ASU, we are forced to sit here now and wait till either they get peace and we aid them or for someone else to attack them..... but let me get this right because GR entered with C&G on the other side of the fight and we in CD are allied to them as well, CD is now allowed to enter the fight with GR with out anyone declaring on GR because there side was not stated on the terms....... how dose that make sense..... how is that fare......

CD want to defend our allies but our hands are tied to only helping GR, but me, being involved in the KARMA war disagrees with preemptive attack on any alliance unless a good CB...... and GR entered on a side thats CB is BS

yes we could of stayed in this war, but as stated before me MHA is at peace with WAPA so there was no point in keeping the fight going with MHA, but we would love do defend one of our other allies..... but these terms are stupid and we cant change that

And to Sparta, CD did ask for peace either it was force upon us

Edit: We were never asked into peace talks so get your info right

Edited February 8, 2011 by The Last Imperial

[Lusitan]

[quote name='The Last Imperial' timestamp='1297181533' post='2625751']
MHA it was fun fighting you even though it didnt last that long.

And now to those of you wondering why CD has so much to say on this, do you not realize that we did enter this fight to defend our allies, and love to defend all of our allies, and just because WAPA got peace dose not mean all our allies got peace, NSO and ASU both are still fighting in a war, that has nothing to do with the fight we just peaced out of, but because of these terms we can not go and fight for NSO or ASU, we are forced to sit here now and wait till either they get peace and we aid them or for someone else to attack them..... but let me get this right because GR entered with C&G on the other side of the fight and we in CD are allied to them as well, CD is now allowed to enter the fight with GR with out anyone declaring on GR because there side was not stated on the terms....... how dose that make sense..... how is that fare......

CD want to defend our allies but our hands are tied to only helping GR, but me, being involved in the KARMA war disagrees with preemptive attack on any alliance unless a good CB...... and GR entered on a side thats CB is BS

yes we could of stayed in this war, but as stated before me MHA is at peace with WAPA so there was no point in keeping the fight going with MHA, but we would love do defend one of our other allies..... but these terms are stupid and we cant change that

And to Sparta, CD did ask for peace either it was force upon us
[/quote]

I suggest you re-read the peace terms your government agreed to. You can't go into war without anyone further declaring on GR, NSO or ASU.

[Khyber]

Great to hear guys.

o/ our allies in Argent.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1297127169' post='2624805']
Well that was fun. Good war everyone, see you in 6 months.
[/quote]
Well you must be the biggest optimist.

[Centurius]

[quote name='GearHead' timestamp='1297180276' post='2625735']
Well, CD, I dunno what to say.

First you start your amazing crusade with most of your AA in peace mode - most of which just jumped in.
Secondly, you failed to attend the peace negotiations, forfeiting any ability to object in real time.
Thirdly, as one of the main negotiators for our side taking requests and orders for the terms from all parties, I never heard any complaints from or about CD at any time before this announcement was posted.
Finally, the terms were signed and sigs delivered without a peep from your mouths. If you sign something, don't go and complain about it afterwards - *especially* if you never objected before you signed it.

Look, you failed to properly communicate any of these pent up feelings when it could have perhaps made a difference. Bashing those who negotiated on our side's behalf after the fact is just retarded. Go home guys. Without contributing to peace talks or even to the war, you have no leverage here.

With that rant done, I'd like to give a very large thanks and hail to our allies and friends we did fight alongside, as well as a courteous nod to our opponents. It's been fun. o/
[/quote]

In addition to this, there were 2 days between the final terms agreed upon and the posting of the announcement, every step we as a coalition took was up for debate. You didn't take that chance at any point and signed the terms without objections. You had your chance and didn't take it.

[quote name='The Last Imperial' timestamp='1297181533' post='2625751']
MHA it was fun fighting you even though it didnt last that long.

And now to those of you wondering why CD has so much to say on this, do you not realize that we did enter this fight to defend our allies, and love to defend all of our allies, and just because WAPA got peace dose not mean all our allies got peace, NSO and ASU both are still fighting in a war, that has nothing to do with the fight we just peaced out of, but because of these terms we can not go and fight for NSO or ASU, we are forced to sit here now and wait till either they get peace and we aid them or for someone else to attack them..... but let me get this right because GR entered with C&G on the other side of the fight and we in CD are allied to them as well, CD is now allowed to enter the fight with GR with out anyone declaring on GR because there side was not stated on the terms....... how dose that make sense..... how is that fare......

CD want to defend our allies but our hands are tied to only helping GR, but me, being involved in the KARMA war disagrees with preemptive attack on any alliance unless a good CB...... and GR entered on a side thats CB is BS

yes we could of stayed in this war, but as stated before me MHA is at peace with WAPA so there was no point in keeping the fight going with MHA, but we would love do defend one of our other allies..... but these terms are stupid and we cant change that

And to Sparta, CD did ask for peace either it was force upon us

Edit: We were never asked into peace talks so get your info right
[/quote]

Everyone on our side was asked into peacetalks and everyone on our side was able to make demands for the talks.

[The Last Imperial]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1297181777' post='2625757']
I suggest you re-read the peace terms your government agreed to. You can't go into war without anyone further declaring on GR, NSO or ASU.
[/quote]
really, because it was even stated before in this topic that Sparta can still stay in this war on PB side, and thats because it says "Surrounding NpO/NPO" and nothing about PB side

[Gingervites]

well that was fun, now I actually have something to do.
time to rebuild

[Lusitan]

[quote name='The Last Imperial' timestamp='1297182451' post='2625766']
really, because it was even stated before in this topic that Sparta can still stay in this war on PB side, and thats because it says "Surrounding NpO/NPO" and nothing about PB side
[/quote]

Like I said, just read it again.

[AvengingAngel256]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1297181922' post='2625761']
Well you must be the biggest optimist.
[/quote]
It's sad that hoping for war in the next 6 months is being optimistic.
(It's true, but sad all the same.)

[Bionic redhead]

Okay CD troll squad, that's enough.

Not that it's particularly relevant, but here's how I first found out about peace talks:

[quote]<@BrotherInArms> yes?
<@BrotherInArms> LintWad:
<~LintWad> You guys currently in talks?
<@BrotherInArms> if so I haven't heard about it. Let me check the gov forum
<@BrotherInArms> LintWad: the only talks I see invlove asking for targets
<~LintWad> Hrm. Kay.
<~LintWad> <AtheistRep[NATO]> 3. The parties of NV, GLOF, WAPA, Colossus, Quantum, AB, CD, TFD, NATO, TNG, DDM, and TPC
agree to not re-enter on any point in the current conflict surrounding NpO or NPO. These parties may defend
against an alliance who DoWs (or equivalent) against their treatied allies after these terms are posted.
<@BrotherInArms> but I've been away all day, and no one else is on to update me
<@JakeLiebenow> Well
<@JakeLiebenow> There goes AZTEC
<@BrotherInArms> we just got a new list of targets from WAPA about 5 hours ago. With no one on, I sincerely doubt we were
involved in anything that produced that
<@BrotherInArms> I'm trying to get a hold of Cairna, he'd know more, being the active apostle
<@BrotherInArms> *Oracle[/quote]

For those who don't spot the problem there, that's NSO gov quoting the peace terms. Now you can't say that we couldn't have been contacted; CD gov info isn't hard to find and I have been sitting in the Sparta/MHA/Aztec front channel on IRC since the 30th January. Yet the first time I find out about discussions is from a secondary source once terms have been decided.

I also have logs of me complaining about the terms on the 6th of feb in the afforementioned IRC channel. Furthermore, gearhead, for saying that we didn't contribute anything to the war, may I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

But like I said earlier on, this is all irrelevant. We got our friends in WAPA out of trouble and the members of CD did me proud.

[The Last Imperial]

Edit:Never mind I will listen to you BR

Edited February 8, 2011 by The Last Imperial

[King Louis the II]

I think if CD is not happy with the peace arrangements, she could ask to have her name removed from the agreement and continue the war.

[Auctor]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1297184587' post='2625797']
I think if CD is not happy with the peace arrangements, she could ask to have her name removed from the agreement and continue the war.
[/quote]

Thank you for this original and creative thought and for really raising the bar on profound political discourse in our time.