We Have a Grievance...

[evilsquirrel]

I salute Legion and welcome them as brothers in arms against Athens. Hang tough Legion. Never forget you have one friend at the 57th

[Locke]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1297053798' post='2623257']
Mine, personally? Go ahead broski.
[/quote]
No, since you were attacking his AA, I'll be attacking yours and say you've moved clear up to MK's trachea.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1297049139' post='2623085']
Speaking as the only member of that 'small part of the government' left in the Legion today... sup?

Airme, you're obnoxious.

Geoffron X, you need to read up on your history. We bloody well pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Saying that Pacifica 'saved' us is about as offensive and ignorant as what Airme said.

[/quote]

I am obnoxious? My life goals are complete and I can retire now. The fact remains that you did try to disband and fail. That doesn't negate anything that I said. And is base on facts. Offensive? Sure maybe it can damage ones pride. I can accept that. But not ignorant, given that it is based in fact.

Edited February 7, 2011 by AirMe

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297054273' post='2623288']
No, since you were attacking his AA, I'll be attacking yours and say you've moved clear up to MK's trachea.
[/quote]
It's like you have a camera filming ODN and MK's interactions~

[dev0win]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1296988482' post='2621945']
So, if we search your post history, can we find evidence of you decrying Legion and their little flying monkeys for their "gangbang"?

Thought not.
[/quote]
No, because GOONS actually deserve it. Your ridiculous past policies and coalitions repeated gang-bangs have lead to marked degradation of game-play. I rather enjoy the idea of you tasting your own medicine for once.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1297009144' post='2622186']I seem to remember DAWN honoring an oA (I think) to attack CnG with no CB and then justifying it because they were going to roll with their friends.[/quote]You remember wrong. We have never said that rolling with our friends was our main reason to enter the war.

[quote]That said, there is also something ironic about people screaming at DH for not entering the war via correct treaty chaining and then turning around and yelling at CnG for.... following their treaty chains correctly. Double Standards much?[/quote]Show me where, in the context of this thread or this war, I said anything about treaty chaining.


[quote]Personally, I don't care much about 'morality' BS. Every alliance *always* thinks they are on the moral side. Morality is a subjective term. Arguments over CB are also equally pointless. 99 percent of the time, the debate will split based on sides. At the end of the day, all that matters is if you will stand by your friends (LOST for ODN in this case) and honor your word to them if they turn to you for help.

I will tell you what *my* personal moral code is. It is that I will guard my friends backs, even if such a defense sees me destroyed. It is that I wont e-lawyer my way out of an obligation if my friends call on me for help. If you are surprised to see LOST honoring their MDP, you do not know LOST well. If you are surprised to see CnG rolling together, than you do not know CnG well.

The time to evaluate the 'morality' of your allies is not when they are in the middle of a war and calling on you for help. I have zero problem with canceling treaties because you decide you are moving in separate directions. Thats why 'eternal' treaties are lame in my book. But I do have a problem with not honoring a legit call for help during war. That seems to be the fundamental difference in our views. To us, our friends come before the often subjective ((and usually lame from an OOC perspective)) 'moral' judgment. And while there is that time to evaluate treaties... that time is NEVER in the heat of battle.

You are free to disagree with that assessment. But personally, I wouldnt want a treaty connection with anyone who did not feel the same way.[/quote]Your excuse for a moral code allows others to dictate your foreign policy.
The Legion's attack on GOONS was a direct result of GOONS' attack on the NPO. With your incredible "morality", you were led to attack the Legion by a chain of events you had no influence on and without being allowed, at any point, to consider your actions. You know that I like you personally, but if this is how you understand the sovereignty of your alliance, I am really sorry for you and the ODN.

[Style #386]

Kick ass, C&G.

[quote name='Maccers The Great' timestamp='1297007169' post='2622160']
I have to say this is pretty amazing. ODN vs Legion. 3+yrs ago when I was in ODN i would never have thought it possible. We even had membership exchanges and joint military units. A lot has changed.
[/quote]
And it's all my fault!

Apparently.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297057580' post='2623520']
Your excuse for a moral code allows others to dictate your foreign policy.
The Legion's attack on GOONS was a direct result of GOONS' attack on the NPO. With your incredible "morality", you were led to attack the Legion by a chain of events you had no influence on and without being allowed, at any point, to consider your actions. You know that I like you personally, but if this is how you understand the sovereignty of your alliance, I am really sorry for you and the ODN.
[/quote]

Golan, G&G moved as a single entity. My left leg is not a slave of my right leg. My right arm is not an unwilling participant in the scheming of my left. None of us were pawns, nor were any coerced. We were compelled to react, and so we reacted.

Our sovereignty is not reduced by our commitment to the Union. On the contrary, our trust in one another is the ultimate guarantor of our individual liberty.

-Craig

Edited February 7, 2011 by Comrade Craig

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1297058994' post='2623600']
Golan, G&G moved as a single entity. My left leg is not a slave of my right leg. My right arm is not an unwilling participant in the scheming of my left. None of us were pawns, nor were any coerced. We were compelled to react, and so we reacted.

Our sovereignty is not reduced by our commitment to the Union. On the contrary, our trust in one another is the ultimate guarantor of our individual liberty.

-Craig
[/quote]Commitment to the union of CnG is one thing. Blindly following others is another.
I respect you enough to believe that you are not trying to fool the readers of this thread, so my sad conclusion is that you fell to the trap (to which many in this world fall) of confusing commitment to friends and loyalty with completely giving up your autonomy as a thinking person and alliance.
In this case it's worse, because you are collaborating with alliances and actions of the worst kind this world has seen.

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1297055231' post='2623334']
I am obnoxious? My life goals are complete and I can retire now. The fact remains that you did try to disband and fail. That doesn't negate anything that I said. And is base on facts. Offensive? Sure maybe it can damage ones pride. I can accept that. But not ignorant, given that it is based in fact.
[/quote]

A portion of the government failed at their goal of successfully disbanding the Legion. The rest of us had no such goal and thus did not fail. The disbanders were not representative of the Legion as a whole, thus your statement is false. Which also happens to be why it was offensive: you're implying that I wanted the alliance to disband.

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297060506' post='2623665']
Commitment to the union of CnG is one thing. Blindly following others is another.
I respect you enough to believe that you are not trying to fool the readers of this thread, so my sad conclusion is that you fell to the trap (to which many in this world fall) of confusing commitment to friends and loyalty with completely giving up your autonomy as a thinking person and alliance.
In this case it's worse, because you are collaborating with alliances and actions of the worst kind this world has seen.
[/quote]
I [i]think[/i] you don't know what you're talking about, but who knows? I'm just a Doomhouse puppet, right?

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297060506' post='2623665']
Commitment to the union of CnG is one thing. Blindly following others is another.
I respect you enough to believe that you are not trying to fool the readers of this thread, so my sad conclusion is that you fell to the trap (to which many in this world fall) of confusing commitment to friends and loyalty with completely giving up your autonomy as a thinking person and alliance.
In this case it's worse, because you are collaborating with alliances and actions of the worst kind this world has seen.
[/quote]

You've bought into a narrative: the poor, rehabilitated Pacifica was walking down the street, whistling happily and minding its own business, only to be set upon by a pack of vicious thugs -- and you're implying that anyone who rejects your narrative is either a dupe ("fell into the trap") or lying. I'd like to believe that I'm not the former, and I know with certainty that I'm not the latter.

Setting aside issues of "loyalty" or "friendship" for a moment -- and speaking only for myself -- it is absolutely clear to me that it is in the immediate [i]self-interest[/i] of the International that our close allies prevail in this conflict. Choosing sides was not difficult, and I'm not losing any sleep worrying about the morality of our actions.

Hundreds of millions of INT soldiers have fought and died to preserve the glorious workers' alliance, and if it is necessary then a hundred million more will gladly make the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our proletarian revolution.

-Craig

Edited February 7, 2011 by Comrade Craig

[lamuella]

[quote name='dev0win' timestamp='1297056566' post='2623430']
No, because GOONS actually deserve it.
[/quote]

so basically you have different standards of what is acceptable for those who you think "deserve it".

So do we. Glad to see you agree with us.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1297032981' post='2622799']
Actually Legion, don't. I want to see this happen.
[/quote]
Ive already promised Mandellav a nuke if i ever get down there

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1297062120' post='2623745']I [i]think[/i] you don't know what you're talking about, but who knows? I'm just a Doomhouse puppet, right?[/quote]Come back when you have something meaningful to say.

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1297062290' post='2623747']You've bought into a narrative: the poor, rehabilitated Pacifica was walking down the street, whistling happily and minding its own business, only to be set upon by a pack of vicious thugs -- and you're implying that anyone who rejects your narrative is either a dupe ("fell into the trap") or lying. I'd like to believe that I'm not the former, and I know with certainty that I'm not the latter.

Setting aside issues of "loyalty" or "friendship" for a moment -- and speaking only for myself -- it is absolutely clear to me that it is in the immediate [i]self-interest[/i] of the International that our close allies prevail in this conflict. Choosing sides was not difficult, and I'm not losing any sleep worrying about the morality of our actions.

Hundreds of millions of INT soldiers have fought and died to preserve the glorious workers' alliance, and if it is necessary then a hundred million more will gladly make the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our proletarian revolution.

-Craig[/quote]Craig, the narrative you are talking about, which we have already discussed elsewhere is completely irrelevant to the main point I raised and you obviously don't need me to tell you this.
The trap I was talking about has nothing to do with it either. It's a common notion in this world that treaties should take precedence over any other consideration. This view was nurtured by the old hegemony to justify the backing of any atrocity. Now it's a widely accepted axiom. I am not suggesting that all people who accept it are generally and necessarily immoral or fools, but the idea that once signing a treaty you give your friends a carte blanche is distorted logic and morality and undermines alliances' sovereignty.
Anyway, supporting the attack on the NPO is not the reasoning you (CnG) provided until now for entering this war. If it is, stop hiding behind treaties to justify it.
The reason you stated for the attack on the Legion was a chain of treaties. Now, assuming that this is the reason, let's look what happened here:
GOONS attacked the NPO. As a result GOONS were attacked by (among others) the Legion. LOST were bound by a treaty (which they at least chose to sign) to come to GOONS help. Other CnG signatories were bound to help LOST. None of these treaties was a secret to anyone. GOONS decided for you whether you would enter this war and you (bound to honour all treaties without question) had no choice.
If you see no problem with this, then we have a very different understanding of the terms sovereignty, independence and freedom.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Golan 1st

[Stefano Palmieri]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1297065248' post='2623798']
Ive already promised Mandellav a nuke if i ever get down there
[/quote]
=/ Now I'm torn between you nuking Londo or Mandellav.. Any chance I could have both?

Edited February 7, 2011 by Stefano Palmieri

[Trikoupis]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1297062290' post='2623747']
Setting aside issues of "loyalty" or "friendship" for a moment -- and speaking only for myself -- it is absolutely clear to me that it is in the immediate [i]self-interest[/i] of the International that our close allies prevail in this conflict. Choosing sides was not difficult, and I'm not losing any sleep worrying about the morality of our actions.

-Craig
[/quote]

If I know Craig a bit, he is 100% percent honest when he says this.

Both international law and morals would risk to lose their relevance, if we were to stop bending them both and bringing them together. What would fire power be good for if it had no ideals to back and what would ideals matter without fire power to back them? You can't do politics if you root only for morals or only for calculating reason. You have to root for both. You have to be an armed prophet, for all unarmed prophets are bound to doom.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Trikoupis' timestamp='1297074137' post='2623881']
If I know Craig a bit, he is 100% percent honest when he says this.

Both international law and morals would risk to lose their relevance, if we were to stop bending them both and bringing them together. What would fire power be good for if it had no ideals to back and what would ideals matter without fire power to back them? You can't do politics if you root only for morals or only for calculating reason. You have to root for both. You have to be an armed prophet, for all unarmed prophets are bound to doom.
[/quote]

There is no morality, there is only war. And war is [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E8m-ADUAhg"]good[/url]

[AirMe]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1297061913' post='2623742']
A portion of the government failed at their goal of successfully disbanding the Legion. The rest of us had no such goal and thus did not fail. The disbanders were not representative of the Legion as a whole, thus your statement is false. Which also happens to be why it was offensive: you're implying that I wanted the alliance to disband.
[/quote]

No, I am implying that the alliance tried to disband. If I thought you personally "wanted" the alliance to disband I would have said "You wanted to disband." All I said is you tried and didn't succeed.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297060506' post='2623665']
Commitment to the union of CnG is one thing. Blindly following others is another.
I respect you enough to believe that you are not trying to fool the readers of this thread, so my sad conclusion is that you fell to the trap (to which many in this world fall) of confusing commitment to friends and loyalty with completely giving up your autonomy as a thinking person and alliance.
In this case it's worse, because you are collaborating with alliances and actions of the worst kind this world has seen.
[/quote]
Commitment to CnG is everything Golan, it overrides the personal misgivings some of us clearly have. If we commies where not serious about our commitment to the bloc we are members of we would not have joined in the first place. There is no alternative when a ally goes to war, you are duly obliged to follow them no matter what otherwise one should not be signing up to such treaties.

And while I do have serious misgivings about the war on Pacifica lets not try pass it off as the worst kind of thing this world has ever seen, because I have suffered far worse in the past (on more than one occasion). Not that two wrongs make a right, but again commitment to allies and the duty to them must be a [b]necessity [/b]not an [b]optional course of action[/b]. If I was scared of having to do something unpalatable then I would have joined GPA a long time ago.

[itseZe]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297065500' post='2623802']
If you see no problem with this, then we have a very different understanding of the terms sovereignty, independence and freedom.
[/quote]
Apparently we do. We could have chosen to let GOONS hang out there (and we wouldn't even have been the only one doing that to their allies this war), but that's not who we are.
Just because we defend our allies doesn't mean we don't have sovereignty, and I'm not sure why you would even think something like that.

What's even more disturbing is this pseudo-moralism coming from you, considering your attack on us last year. But I guess you could say you didn't follow "blindly", afterall you had a spy in place

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1297088086' post='2623978']
Commitment to CnG is everything Golan, it overrides the personal misgivings some of us clearly have. If we commies where not serious about our commitment to the bloc we are members of we would not have joined in the first place. There is no alternative when a ally goes to war, you are duly obliged to follow them no matter what otherwise one should not be signing up to such treaties.

And while I do have serious misgivings about the war on Pacifica lets not try pass it off as the worst kind of thing this world has ever seen, because I have suffered far worse in the past (on more than one occasion). Not that two wrongs make a right, but again commitment to allies and the duty to them must be a [b]necessity [/b]not an [b]optional course of action[/b]. If I was scared of having to do something unpalatable then I would have joined GPA a long time ago.
[/quote]

All very nice. Have you got any trot nations around 10k NS? I've got a couple of free slots if you'd be so kind to send them my way.

[iamwalrus]

I can not support this war. GOONS are guilty of many crimes against humanity, and their unprovoked attack against NPO is just a large scale continuation of their disregard of national dignity which is carried out daily through their wars over tech.

While I support my comrades in The International and have proven that support through fighting off two alliances for them, I must state publicly my disdain for this decision.

I understand that treaties are meant to be honored and so I wish little harm to our comrades in The International. May national dignity still be in tact once all these wars are fought and done. I would hate for there to be a world in which wars need no provocation rather than "I don't like you" or "I want your resources".

Edited February 7, 2011 by iamwalrus

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1297093121' post='2624027']
All very nice. Have you got any trot nations around 10k NS? I've got a couple of free slots if you'd be so kind to send them my way.
[/quote]
Probably (not all of us are Trots you know), and tbh you could always get off your rear end and declare on them

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1297051644' post='2623169']
Your view of the war is distorted as a result of your eyes being in Pacifica's gastrointestinal tract.
[/quote]

Incorrect. My view is crystal clear. You and your cohorts are rogue alliances, and will be treated as such.