We Have a Grievance...

[rsoxbronco1]

The Legion types are definitely right here. This is clearly an aggressive move because C&G was going to hit Legion even if they had never attacked GOONS.

[Volgan]

And a few years from now.

A small boy sits at a table reading a history book and asks "daddy, what was legion" whereapon his daddy replies "it was, it was someeething out of history Son. Why dont you go and check the tinternet" the little boy says "I have daddy, theres no sign of it anywhere". "Ahhh", says the young boys daddy "the ODN must have wiped the floor with them clean out of existance".

[The Corrupt Teacher]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1296970770' post='2621499']
Good sir, I must protest.

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Haters_gonna_hate.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Dear god somebody cover Hombre up.

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297005088' post='2622119']
Might want to change your treaty to MADP then considering the effects for you seem to be the same anyway.
[/quote]

Do you really want GOONS as part of CnG and DH? The Neo-Hegemony would truly be complete then.

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1297016156' post='2622345']
So why is MK not in C&G anymore?
[/quote]

CnG had to cut its weakest link, cull out the weak so the strong survive duh

[Believland]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1296970770' post='2621499']
Good sir, I must protest.

[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Haters_gonna_hate.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Has Hombre been working out lately?

[lamuella]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297016921' post='2622366']
I'll let Goldie's post explain that for you. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98284&view=findpost&p=2622276
You are still [i]tecnically[/i] on an oA. That is how MDoAPs work. Sure you can enter but you are under no obligation by your treaty to do so.
[/quote]

well, except for the fact that our treaty, which I wrote, says that they were. It doesn't mention chaining. it doesn't mention extenuating circumstances. It says:

[img]http://i35.tinypic.com/2jh0u8.jpg[/img]

"If one of us is attacked, we both defend".

Nothing about chains. Nothing about other treaties. Don't you dare presume to tell me how the treaty that I wrote applies between my alliance and our allies.

We were attacked. =LOST= are helping us defend and I am very grateful for that.

[quote]
And If you want to go by your logic, Legion and GOONS were in a state of war when GOONS along with DH attacked NPO due to our MDP.
[/quote]

Sorry, but that doesn't follow. The Treaty of the Purple Star says "Should one signatory alliance come under attack, it is the obligation of the other alliance to come to their aid militarily", not "Should one signatory alliance come under attack, the other should consider itself to also be under attack".

[quote]
Nice handwriting.
[/quote]

if you mean that seriously, thank you. If you mean that sarcastically, thank you.

[Mandellav]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297013515' post='2622260']
Yeah very different situation...


NEW attacks DF without any [b]RATIONAL[/b] reason.
DF's allies attack NEW in defense.
PC and iFOK claims it is an agressive move and don't activate their [b]oA[/b] treaty clause with NEW
You:



[b]Now: [/b]

DH attacks NPO without any [b]RATIONAL[/b] reason.
NPO's allies attack GOONS in defense of NPO
=LOST= active oA treaty clause with GOONS and attacks Legion
You:



And you guys still be mad when I call you hypocrites, I really can't understand.
[/quote]

When did PC adn iFok either become =LOST= or join CnG? I missed that announcement.

=LOST= honors treaties.

[Shoofly]

For anyone with historical perspective, this declaration saddens me.

All I have to say is that you'd better give us your best shot and make it count ODN.

You're going to have to kill us all before we let this one go.

[silentkiller]

[quote]Sorry, but that doesn't follow. The Treaty of the Purple Star says "Should one signatory alliance come under attack, it is the obligation of the other alliance to come to their aid militarily", not "Should one signatory alliance come under attack, the other should consider itself to also be under attack".[/quote]

Article 3: MY HAPPY HOUSE
If one of the signatories is directly attacked, the other two are obligated to defend them, unless the defense comes as a result of a chaining obligation. If one of the signatories is attacking aggressively, the others have the ability to join in too.

From DOOMHOUSE treaty. MK/Umbrella/GOONS have been claiming that an attack on one of them is an attack on all three. So I guess the same principle works with our Legion treaty?



[quote]if you mean that seriously, thank you. If you mean that sarcastically, thank you.
[/quote]

Yes I was serious, considering it is much better than mine

Edited February 6, 2011 by silentkiller

[lamuella]

[quote name='Shoofly' timestamp='1297021152' post='2622471']
For anyone with historical perspective, this declaration saddens me.

All I have to say is that you'd better give us your best shot and make it count ODN.

You're going to have to kill us all before we let this one go.
[/quote]

I agree.

ODN, kill them all.

Raze their cities, obliterate their infrastructure, pillage their land and tech. Let not a stone rest upon a stone in the sheet of radioactive glass that is where the Legion used to be. Let the word "Legion" lose all meaning as a name, and instead simply be either a way of referring to a thousand of something, or the punchline of cautionary jokes about what happens when someone really screws the pooch. Let small children think that "The Legion" was a myth, a fable, the kind of thing mentioned in nursery rhymes about foolish people. At most, let drunks in pubs tell each other "Legion jokes".

Let history wash away this mistake of an alliance. Let the slumbering ages forget what it was. This worlddeserves better than Legion has given them, and we are the agents of history in correcting this cosmic mistake. Deep down, even they beg for their own end. You can see it in their eyes.

Let this remnant of a worse world fade out like the last ember of a ruinous housefire. Let flowers grow from the ashes of this ridiculous purple folly.

The world will be better. We will all be happier.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lamuella

[lamuella]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297021269' post='2622475']
Article 3: MY HAPPY HOUSE
If one of the signatories is directly attacked, the other two are obligated to defend them, unless the defense comes as a result of a chaining obligation. If one of the signatories is attacking aggressively, the others have the ability to join in too.

From DOOMHOUSE treaty. MK/Umbrella/GOONS have been claiming that an attack on one of them is an attack on all three. So I guess the same principle works with our Legion treaty?
[/quote]

wow, you really are skipping around from point to point on this, aren't you? I was talking about the treaty between =LOST= and GOONS. You know, the one I wrote and the one you're presuming to interpret.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297021837' post='2622496']
wow, you really are skipping around from point to point on this, aren't you? I was talking about the treaty between =LOST= and GOONS. You know, the one I wrote and the one you're presuming to interpret.
[/quote]

Yeah allright.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98284&view=findpost&p=2622379

I love how you ignored the DOOMhouse article though.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1297015314' post='2622317']
You can interpret chains and oA's however you want it seems, but there is nothing as concrete as deciding not to activate when your MDoAP ally is hit. Unless, of course, Legion fully accepts VE's rationale that VE is fighting the defensive war, in which case we agree with them for not oA'ing in with Polar like their other allies did.
[/quote]


Actually if you noticed I have not commented in this entire thread about the legalities or interpretations of anyone's treaties. What I was however pointing out was the simple double standard in play in Sardonic's post where he can claim no one has the right to tell others how to interpret their treaties and at the same time start a war over Legion not interpreting its Polar treaty the way you all wanted them to (and thus bringing in NPO via more standard means).


As to why Legion did not activate with Polar that, in the end, is between Polar and Legion and you are just as free as any other members of the peanut gallery to speculate. However if one takes a stance that any third party attempting to tell another aa how and when they should activate a treaty is "pathetic", one should also assume that same person would be loathe to sign their name to the document I quoted given that it does just that.

[Hombre de Murcielago]

[quote name='The Corrupt Teacher' timestamp='1297020944' post='2622462']
Dear god somebody cover Hombre up.
[/quote]



[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1297021008' post='2622466']
Has Hombre been working out lately?
[/quote]

It's about times someone notices...

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1297004659' post='2622111']
Send them to the depths of the sanction race C&G
[/quote]

You have uncovered the plot. CnG was quietly contracted by those hilarious cactuars at RIA to beat Legion below them, so RIA will gain sanction. The cat is now out of the bag! AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ON OUR SIDE! OPSEC MAN ... OPSEC!

[Kevanovia]

There goes ORRPLE.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1297023684' post='2622533']
You have uncovered the plot. CnG was quietly contracted by those hilarious cactuars at RIA to beat Legion below them, so RIA will gain sanction. The cat is now out of the bag! AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ON OUR SIDE! OPSEC MAN ... OPSEC!
[/quote]

GATO leaks like a sieve, sorry

[lonewolfe2015]

So when does Doomhouse get bored destroying everyone and realize they didn't wait long enough for a credible threat to arise and have effectively put another year long wait on the next war?

[Goldie]

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1297022156' post='2622506']
Actually if you noticed I have not commented in this entire thread about the legalities or interpretations of anyone's treaties. What I was however pointing out was the simple double standard in play in Sardonic's post where he can claim no one has the right to tell others how to interpret their treaties and at the same time start a war over Legion not interpreting its Polar treaty the way you all wanted them to (and thus bringing in NPO via more standard means).


As to why Legion did not activate with Polar that, in the end, is between Polar and Legion and you are just as free as any other members of the peanut gallery to speculate. However if one takes a stance that any third party attempting to tell another aa how and when they should activate a treaty is "pathetic", one should also assume that same person would be loathe to sign their name to the document I quoted given that it does just that.
[/quote]

I wouldn't go so far as to say what he is saying alludes to any sort of double standard, but it is on a similar track. What the world should understand is that treaties are only open for interpretation by the two parties (or more) who sign them. How LOST views its treaty with GOONS is fairly conventional, they decided to chain to defend them, just as countless other alliances have chained to defend people. The way your logic drifts is that how Legion views its treaty with NpO is very unconventional, in that there is no defense where defense is mandated. You are right in that clearly LOST had the 'option' of chaining in on GOONS' front (not sure how the treaty is worded, but I would assume some form of optional non-chaining is present), but they are more than welcome to observe the treaty as literally as they want, and in that case, Legion hit GOONS, LOST is hitting Legion. How it got to that point is clearly of less concern to LOST than the mere fact that GOONS was attacked and the treaty activated.

[kinofp]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297021742' post='2622491']
I agree.

ODN, kill them all.

Raze their cities, obliterate their infrastructure, pillage their land and tech. Let not a stone rest upon a stone in the sheet of radioactive glass that is where the Legion used to be. Let the word "Legion" lose all meaning as a name, and instead simply be either a way of referring to a thousand of something, or the punchline of cautionary jokes about what happens when someone really screws the pooch. Let small children think that "The Legion" was a myth, a fable, the kind of thing mentioned in nursery rhymes about foolish people. At most, let drunks in pubs tell each other "Legion jokes".

Let history wash away this mistake of an alliance. Let the slumbering ages forget what it was. This worlddeserves better than Legion has given them, and we are the agents of history in correcting this cosmic mistake. Deep down, even they beg for their own end. You can see it in their eyes.

Let this remnant of a worse world fade out like the last ember of a ruinous housefire. Let flowers grow from the ashes of this ridiculous purple folly.

The world will be better. We will all be happier.
[/quote]

you're trying way to hard.

oh and +1

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Volgan' timestamp='1297020430' post='2622449']
And a few years from now.

A small boy sits at a table reading a history book and asks "daddy, what was legion" whereapon his daddy replies "it was, it was someeething out of history Son. Why dont you go and check the tinternet" the little boy says "I have daddy, theres no sign of it anywhere". "Ahhh", says the young boys daddy "the ODN must have wiped the floor with them clean out of existance".
[/quote]

I found it depressing how the sentiments of alliance members change according to the wills of the leaders and the recent political games. This always comes to my mind when I see old allies biting each others throat: “[i]Oceania is at war with Eastasia, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". [/i]Get a spine people; Legion was an alliance very close to you, not too long ago. Wishing for its destruction by your own hands is like condemning your whole history, or accepting that you were never good allies.

[prather6]

Give them hell !!! CnG Give them helll.. ..

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1297005649' post='2622125']
The difference is that you will most likely not get peace until all your nations have faced war So hiding in peace-mode is not really a viable option if DH choose to go down that route.
[/quote]
Wow, things really have changed the last few years.

[quote name="Bakunin's Dream" date='30 April 2008 - 01:57 AM' post='572317']
Not even the vaunted hippy shield will save the cowards now.
[/quote]
Oh wait, guess not.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1297005685' post='2622127']
Are people really arguing semantics over this being oA or MD, when this war is against the Legion, which [b]ignored a direct ally being hit[/b]? Don't bust LOST's balls over this, when clearly Legion went out of it's way to let a MD ally burn. They deserve a myriad of stompings for that, I for one am excited to see them get one here.
[/quote]
Something about glass houses here.

Considering what VE did to Polaris while they were MADP partners (setting them up to be the targets in a global war), do you really feel you have the necessary moral standing to stand in judgment over Legion-Polar relations?

[quote name='Tiggah' timestamp='1297008935' post='2622184']
We in the ODN learned our lesson in that war and that lesson is that you don't discard your friends to honour your enemies.
[/quote]
Oh yeah?

Let's do a quick recap of ODN public statements over the last few years.

Oh wait. Don't really have to go very far to find a good example of discarding friends in favour of cementing yourselves in the power structure.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85216

The funny part is I actually remember when ODN tried its best to be honourable; they made mistakes but Diomede and the others had genuine good intentions.

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1297010280' post='2622207']
ODN fighting Legion... Who'da thunk it back in the day.
[/quote]
Anyone who spoke to Arsenal in the months leading up to Karma.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1297010466' post='2622211']
Please do not be putting the words in my mouth. That was an entirely different situation.
[/quote]
No, it wasn't. NEW attacked Dark Fist because they had an old grudge against them, and thought they had an opportunity to get some vengeance. Doomhouse and FAN attacked NPO for the exact same reason.

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1297020161' post='2622439']
The Legion types are definitely right here. This is clearly an aggressive move because C&G was going to hit Legion even if they had never attacked GOONS.
[/quote]
Well, actually...

I suppose you guys have no complaints to make about Kamichi then?

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297021742' post='2622491']
ODN, kill them all.
[/quote]
Oh Lam, I missed your little griefer heart around here. Where've you been?

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1297024368' post='2622564']
So when does Doomhouse get bored destroying everyone and realize they didn't wait long enough for a credible threat to arise and have effectively put another year long wait on the next war?
[/quote]
Roughly six months, then they hit someone else again.

[Tiggah]

[quote name='Balkan Banania' timestamp='1297024994' post='2622582']
I found it depressing how the sentiments of alliance members change according to the wills of the leaders and the recent political games. This always comes to my mind when I see old allies biting each others throat: “[i]Oceania is at war with Eastasia, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". [/i]Get a spine people; Legion was an alliance very close to you, not too long ago. Wishing for its destruction by your own hands is like condemning your whole history, or accepting that you were never good allies.
[/quote]

I don't know that Volgan was ever close to Legion, so I don't think it really has anything to do with him having, or not having, a spine.

EDIT: Haf.. how does signing a treaty with Sparta have anything to do with abandoning an ally?

Edited February 6, 2011 by Tiggah

[Raider]

[quote name='Alexander Kerensky' timestamp='1296970115' post='2621427']
Wow, GOONS really needed to be saved it would seem.
[/quote]
Saved? Bah! Merely getting relieved after holding the line.

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1296979006' post='2621840']
-words-
[/quote]
Thanks for the support comrade. It's good to fight along side you again.

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1296981638' post='2621872']
So, the ODN and INT are rushing to fight for GOONS.
That's nice

Indeed, the style and wording are good. The content is the problem.
Are you also pleased to fight alongside your GOONS brothers once more?
Are you pleased to backup an unprovoked attack by this world's worst bullies?
[/quote]
I'm a highly respected former member of INT, so course they rushing to assist GOONS (at least that's what I like to tell myself). If Cata was here GATO would be declaring on The Legion too. They so love him.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1297024368' post='2622564']
So when does Doomhouse get bored destroying everyone and realize they didn't wait long enough for a credible threat to arise and have effectively put another year long wait on the next war?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I believe the purpose of this war is to do just that. NPO never wanted any credible threats to arise. PB/Doomhouse is no different.[/color]