A Recognition of Hostility

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295343247' post='2581005']
The whole tone of the conversation was non-serious on Dajobo's part. The fact Lennox used this to get his own back at Polar I guess came as a surprise to him. Someone who you considered a friend comes in blathering about spying on someone it is not unusual to assume they are talking !@#$ and to play along with it.
[/quote]
So you concede the point about why he chose VE/MK over MHA?

I'm not buying the "non-serious" part, he even gave Lennox false names to use, and then accepted info later.

[Cairna]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295374639' post='2581624']
So you concede the point about why he chose VE/MK over MHA?

I'm not buying the "non-serious" part, he even gave Lennox false names to use, and then accepted info later.
[/quote]

On the last note, give me a break. At that point, who wouldn't accept the info? Otherwise there wouldn't be much reason to contact VE over something you originally thought was a joke.

As for the name thing, I have on several occasions had joking conversations with people I know about roguing, made jokes about who to target and why, and even on occasion spying. The rogue things sometimes happened, the spying not so much because [b]frankly[/b] in today's CN environment it's useless.

It really is. Pretty much harmless. Sure, a good excuse to whack someone if you catch a spy ring. But give me a break, This wasn't a good reason to escalate and put your friends in the positions VE has put theirs in.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295352862' post='2581143']
That story only works out if he had actually gone to VE with them. (spoiler: he didn't)
[/quote]

This fallacy keeps being repeated over and over in this thread. The indisputable fact is that he did go to VE and he did so within a reasonable time frame. I fail to understand how informing VE within less than a day that they had a spy in their ranks equates to failure to provide them with prompt disclosure. What time frame does equal adequate alacrity? 10 hours? 1 hour? 1 minute?

I am tempted to say that even if Dajobo had been in a simultaneous query with VE gov at the time that Lennox provided the screenies and he immediately transmitted them, VE would still have claimed "SPYING IS A CB!!!" and declared.


Also.....

we already have our winner for the 2011 Most Hypocritical Alliance award. Congratulations, VE.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295374639' post='2581624']
...I'm not buying the "non-serious" part, he even gave Lennox false names to use...[/quote]


LOL, yeah. Including one that directly linked the spy to Polar. You can tell that he was exercising full opsec and not joking at all......

[Monster]

[quote name='Mustakrakish II' timestamp='1295374024' post='2581611']
Most BS defense ever. Even if you got fake screens, if want to avoid a !@#$ storm your first step should have been to inform VE and your govt. And warchests not being able to be accessed by newer members? What? you crazy. Nation check ins most often take place in a finance or a general member public hall so that everyone can check in, except in instances of training programs where or partial membership is involved.

It will be sad if Polaris brings in allies. Even in those logs you still appear guilty, especially when combined with VE logs.
[/quote]
Glad someone is pointing this out. That is always the first step in that kind of situation, especially if you're an alliance leader.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Cairna]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1295375716' post='2581655']
Glad someone is pointing this out. That is always the first step in that kind of situation, especially if you're an alliance leader.
[/quote]
Generally one likes to verify that it's actual information. Human curiosity wins out in this situation. And they weren't exactly given a whole lot of time to go to VE.

Like Letum points out, when OV received info they didn't even go to the alliance being infringed upon.

They wanted a war. They'll grasp at whatever straw they can get at.

[Margrave]

Impy has never struck me as a man given to much heavy thinking. Also, his grammar in IRC is rather poor. I don't know if this accusation by Polaris is true or not; however, Random has always struck me as an honest person, though he someone I don't like. Impy though...you just strike me as lacking any intellectual gifts. Sorry dude.


Doesn't matter to me who wins, really. I will be entertained regardless.

[kReaktor]

0/ Polaris!

[Manis B]

since VE and NpO dont have a treaty, why should NpO even bother telling them they had a spy to begin with? Common Courtesy it looks like...only to have it thrown back in their face.

[Mandellav]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1295344814' post='2581037']
Ironically enough, it wasnt even a raid, unless my memory is failed. It was a simple in-game gather-intel spy op. It had happened nearly a month earlier, while on the app AA. Polar did nothing. Weeks later, after the nation was flying LOST, Npo proceded to ZI the nation with not one word to LOST, even though, he was at the time, a member of LOST.
[/quote]

You are correct Rush. It was an gather intel spy operation by a newbie. Now I remember why I was so mad at Polaris for the way they treated =LOST=.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1295372111' post='2581574']
There was no need for this, we all know you are at war. Why should you post a thread stating "Hey we're at war and we disagree with the CB"? Doesn't every defensive side disagree with the CB?[/quote]

Generally speaking, they at least have their own slant on it. Whether they have legitimate cause to disagree or not is another matter entirely.

It's early which means the story is now clouded, and with time will become clearer, but initial reports certainly do make this sound very reminiscent of a certain dust-up that started over Ordo Verde...

[Margrave]

Indeed. And after hearing some of the backchatter...I wouldn't trust VE at all. As weird as it is to say this...good luck, Polaris.

[Weezy]

Good luck NpO.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Mustakrakish II' timestamp='1295374024' post='2581611']
Most BS defense ever. Even if you got fake screens, if want to avoid a !@#$ storm your first step should have been to inform VE and your govt. And warchests not being able to be accessed by newer members? What? you crazy. Nation check ins most often take place in a finance or a general member public hall so that everyone can check in, except in instances of training programs where or partial membership is involved.

It will be sad if Polaris brings in allies. Even in those logs you still appear guilty, especially when combined with VE logs.
[/quote]

Except from what I understand they did to go VE. Isn't that what these logs are of?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Margrave' timestamp='1295377440' post='2581745']
Impy has never struck me as a man given to much heavy thinking. Also, his grammar in IRC is rather poor. I don't know if this accusation by Polaris is true or not; however, Random has always struck me as an honest person, though he someone I don't like. Impy though...you just strike me as lacking any intellectual gifts. Sorry dude.


Doesn't matter to me who wins, really. I will be entertained regardless.
[/quote]

From where I'm sitting, literally, that's funny. As I've said time and time again, I can afford to let paralegals, secretaries, and little squiggly colored lines take care of spelling and grammar for me. No offense though if minutia is your thing; feel free to put in an application actually.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Margrave]

To be an authority, one should speak with authority, Impy. Also, not a crass individual without even the good grace to come up with a believable CB. Mien Gott, when will any of you man up and simply declare war for your real reasons? Honesty is refreshing, friend, and will set you free of the burden of lies. Be honest, tell the 'Verse that you engineered this paper thin CB so you could try to roll Polaris, and save your own reputation...or be remembered as yet another cowardly liar and schemer.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1295379687' post='2581824']
Except from what I understand they did to go VE. Isn't that what these logs are of?
[/quote]
Yeah they went to VE after they knew VE found them out and were getting ready to roll them. That was real stand up of them!

[Margrave]

Oh hush King Sqrt and come back to \m/ already.

[Necromancer V4L]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295380411' post='2581848']
Yeah they went to VE after they knew VE found them out and were getting ready to roll them. That was real stand up of them!
[/quote]

Well, since VE most likely knew of the whole thing all along, you're correct. It was stand up of Dajobo to approach VE with the information even though he was operating under the impression that, up to that point, it was all a joke put on by an old friend. Kudos to VE for using our Regent's friendly demeanor to find an excuse for war. They are so much better than the old hegemony, who would have used someone's mean demeanor instead!

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1295352569' post='2581131']
There aren't many announcements where it hasn't been used.
[/quote]
It wouldn't come up so much if you and your friends weren't constantly bringing it up and saying things like "this is just as bad as what NPO used to do" and "doing what you fought to stop in Karma". I'll bet if you look in 4 out of 5 situations where it comes up it is someone on your side, or someone trying to smear us, bringing up the comparison first. At which point it is only intentional that we point out that they are wrong.

[quote name='gantanX' timestamp='1295367921' post='2581471']
for an alliance who has 4k++ nukes it is quite disappointing that almost 100% of Polaris war is defensive, i mean come on you have 12M NS against 19M, that's a fair fight tbqh..

Have fun in the war guys
[/quote]
Not surprising, they did the same thing in noCB.

[quote name='Cairna' timestamp='1295374979' post='2581630']
On the last note, give me a break. At that point, who wouldn't accept the info? Otherwise there wouldn't be much reason to contact VE over something you originally thought was a joke.

As for the name thing, I have on several occasions had joking conversations with people I know about roguing, made jokes about who to target and why, and even on occasion spying. The rogue things sometimes happened, the spying not so much because [b]frankly[/b] in today's CN environment it's useless.

It really is. Pretty much harmless. Sure, a good excuse to whack someone if you catch a spy ring. But give me a break, This wasn't a good reason to escalate and put your friends in the positions VE has put theirs in.[/quote]
This wasn't speculative, like those conversations are. He was re-rolling and clearly in a position to act on it.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Necromancer V4L' timestamp='1295380765' post='2581861']
Well, since VE most likely knew of the whole thing all along, you're correct.[/quote]
And you base that on what again? Oh that's right absolutely nothing!

[quote]
It was stand up of Dajobo to approach VE with the information even though he was operating under the impression that, up to that point, it was all a joke put on by an old friend. Kudos to VE for using our Regent's friendly demeanor to find an excuse for war. They are so much better than the old hegemony, who would have used someone's mean demeanor instead!
[/quote]
It would have been stand up for him to tell VE that Lennox was only joining with the express purpose of spying but instead he waited until the last second to try and save his ass before he said a word.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1295343173' post='2581004']
If they are so technologically advanced as to have a parser, then why do they still have open sign ins?
[/quote]
I'm not quite sure I understand the question.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Personally, I'm quite happy to see Polaris burn to the ground. I'm all for the extinction of Polar bears.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295380916' post='2581867']
I'm not quite sure I understand the question.
[/quote]
The point was made that if you have a parser an attack could easily be prepared in 20 hours. However, I find it quite funny that they have a parser, but still hold open sign ins. A bit incompetent, wouldn't ya say?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295380885' post='2581866']
And you base that on what again? Oh that's right absolutely nothing!


It would have been stand up for him to tell VE that Lennox was only joining with the express purpose of spying but instead he waited until the last second to try and save his ass before he said a word.
[/quote]

I want you to tell me you believe that a guy who nobody knows joins VE, and is then granted full membership and acess to military info ovemight and is allowed to skip the academy on the word of Impero did not have some prior relashionship with them? Come one nobody is stupid enough to buy that. VE just needs to come out and say yeah we set you up so what? I mean nobody is buying it. People who do not like Polar and want to see them burn are not even pretending to buy any of it. They just say they are happy. Why even bother with this silly debate when even VEs own members have said so what if it was a set up? I mean sure its bad Karma but its not like VE has not destroyed its reputation before this. VE needs to own up and enjoy being the bad guy while they have a chance. The time for them to do so is coming to end.

Edited January 18, 2011 by The Big Bad