Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[King Chill I]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1295315917' post='2579298']
Sounds like sethb

Interesting times indeed.
[/quote]

I actually agree.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1295371122' post='2581542']
No, you still would have cried about it.
[/quote]
And how do you know that? I wanted a war and I admit that VE delivered, but imo they and Lennox wern't too honest on this CB. At least a CB of "I don't like you" is honest as we can see in this thread.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295364050' post='2581359']
IT boils down to one's understanding of what actually happened here. In the barest sense of the concept, is this a valid reason to go to war? Of course, any alliance is free to sponsor [i]agents provocateur[/i] in order to facilitate a preemptive strike. But, anyone that thinks this was not a setup is just woefully ignorant.
[/quote]

You do understand that Dajobo not only suggested spy targets to Lennox, but accepted the screen shots knowing that they were the result of spying, right? Dajobo was doing it wrong and he got his alliance hurt because of it. All he has to do is declare the bait unappetizing, as he should have, and none of this happens.

That aside, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that[i] someone[/i] had to send VE those logs, that there are only two people who could have assured it was accomplished, and that Dajobo wasn't one of them unless he's the best mole in Planet Bob history. Lennox made sure the logs got to VE. The only question remaining is did Lennox go to VE first and discuss trapping NpO? Lennox knows, but I'm guessing he's not talking and VE certainly will erase any and all evidence of such contact ever existed, assuming it did.

Better to explore the amusing prospect of people trying to say that VE is fighting a [i]defensive[/i] war...while war is a valid response to an act of aggression, so is diplomacy, ZIing only the spies, or a dozen other possible responses. Defensive war implies that you are fighting against military aggression specifically. A few screen shots of what is probably a low level members only area doesn't equate.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1295369899' post='2581514']
Just think that more diplomacy should have been given more thought. And I don't really like seeing curbstomps much.
[/quote]


Why you should give more diplomacy when you don't like your opponent? The only reason I see for VE giving more chance to diplomacy was in consideration for RoK and GOD.


To friends everything. To Foes the words of the law....

Edited January 18, 2011 by King Louis the II

[Hereno]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295370977' post='2581540']
Not my alliance that needed to grow a pair, unfortunately.
Also, it is worth noting that some of the players so keen on war against Polar were... not so keen on war against certain other [i]agents provocateur[/i].

Thus, I call a double standard. But nice try (not) at making a relevant entry to the thread.
[/quote]

"NO U" is the best counter you could come up with?

It's also worth noting that some of the players so keen on not going to war against SLCB despite the best CB ever are now warmongering in this thread and calling alliances far better than their's cowards. Thus, I call a (gasp) [i]double standard[/i]. But, nice try at making yourself not look like a complete tool.

[shahenshah]

Funny how some ppl are talking about diplomacy when they had no issue about it lacking when their friends rolled TPF and NSO.


[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295371725' post='2581558']
Why you should give more diplomacy when you don't like your opponent? The only reason I see for VE giving more chance to diplomacy was in consideration for [b]RoK[/b] and [b]GOD.[/b]
[/quote]

When both these alliances last adventures included torpedoing diplomacy to get the war they wanted.

Edited January 18, 2011 by shahenshah

[Arrnea]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295371684' post='2581556']Better to explore the amusing prospect of people trying to say that VE is fighting a [i]defensive[/i] war...while war is a valid response to an act of aggression, so is diplomacy, ZIing only the spies, or a dozen other possible responses. Defensive war implies that you are fighting against military aggression specifically. A few screen shots of what is probably a low level members only area doesn't equate.[/quote]
Pretty much what I said earlier regarding Ragnarok's treaty obligations to defend Polar, since their ally has come under "aggressive military attack", regardless of the reasons behind that attack. [b]Well said.[/b]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1295371726' post='2581559']It's also worth noting that some of the players so keen on not going to war against SLCB despite the best CB ever are now warmongering in this thread and calling alliances far better than their's cowards. Thus, I call a (gasp) [i]double standard[/i]. But, nice try at making yourself not look like a complete tool.[/quote]
You [b]do[/b] understand the concept of a "trap", right? As much as you'd like to see us walk into one, I suppose you don't.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295370284' post='2581523']
Excessive diplomacy is the reason we haven't had a war in so long. There comes a few times in our lives when one must say: $%&@ Diplomacy. A second in command of an alliance aiding and abetting a spy after nearly a full year of blue balls is absolutely one of those times.

Unless you'd rather we all just sit around and talk at each other until the end of the world?

[/quote]

Thank you for finally seeing things my way. T-shirts are available in the lobby.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295371684' post='2581556']
You do understand that Dajobo not only suggested spy targets to Lennox, but accepted the screen shots knowing that they were the result of spying, right? Dajobo was doing it wrong and he got his alliance hurt because of it. All he has to do is declare the bait unappetizing, as he should have, and none of this happens.

That aside, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that[i] someone[/i] had to send VE those logs, that there are only two people who could have assured it was accomplished, and that Dajobo wasn't one of them unless he's the best mole in Planet Bob history. Lennox made sure the logs got to VE. [b]The only question remaining is did Lennox go to VE first and discuss trapping NpO?[/b] Lennox knows, but I'm guessing he's not talking and VE certainly will erase any and all evidence of such contact ever existed, assuming it did.

Better to explore the amusing prospect of people trying to say that VE is fighting a [i]defensive[/i] war...while war is a valid response to an act of aggression, so is diplomacy, ZIing only the spies, or a dozen other possible responses. Defensive war implies that you are fighting against military aggression specifically. A few screen shots of what is probably a low level members only area doesn't equate.
[/quote]I don't understand why this is a question worth asking.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295371811' post='2581562']
You [b]do[/b] understand the concept of a "trap", right? As much as you'd like to see us walk into one, I suppose you don't.
[/quote]

Of course I understand the concept of a "trap". Most SOS Brigade members fit the bill, actually.

The real question is, do you understand the concepts of sticking up for yourself, or actually making something happen?

[Cairna]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295371881' post='2581566']
Thank you for finally seeing things my way. T-shirts are available in the lobby.
[/quote]
This will only need to endless tip-toeing around to avoid a war. People need to start playing the political game. Just starting a war using you're bored as an excuse does NOT make the game more fun. I'm surprised you don't share that view, Hal.

I don't care that VE started the war. I care that they did so maliciously, and any ally of the NpO that feels they've been put in a tough situation in which they have to pick should know that they were put there maliciously.

At the very least it was a known setup. When presented with this argument most of the war's supporters just whine about how the world needs more war and less diplomacy. It doesn't. It needs people to care about the political game and vie to be top-dog in their own ways. VE chose the time to make it's power play - and if people actually gave a damn about the game a proper resistance would be mounted because they played the wrong card.

If there was any hope left in this game, it would show. OOC, I know, but if everyone's going to do it, I might as well.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295372075' post='2581572']I don't understand why this is a question worth asking.[/quote]
It's worth asking because if it's true then VE has deliberately set NpO up here. If it's false, then Lennox has deliberately set NpO up here.

In the first case, VE would have lost all appropriate reasoning for stating that they have been attacked by NpO (since they orchestrated the op from start to finish in that case). In the second case, it is simply a case of Dajobo being a bit too trusting of Lennox and VE being a bit hasty in executing war.

[Pollard]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295371811' post='2581562']
You [b]do[/b] understand the concept of a "trap", right?
[/quote]


Yes. Shut your trap and stop making everything about you.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295371881' post='2581566']
Thank you for finally seeing things my way. T-shirts are available in the lobby.
[/quote]

+2 Consistency points from last week to now. Color me shocked.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Smooth' timestamp='1295363410' post='2581347']
Says a man actively sucking NPO's teat. It's called time and place. Let me know when you take down NPO's vicegrip on the world.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I was PZIed by the NPO for eight months for daring to take a stand against them and do the right thing. I joined the NSO long before it was even allied to them, and I'm still not the NPO's biggest fan. Believe me, I suck nobody's teat. Besides, they are so powerless these days there isn't anything to suck on.

And NPO's vicegrip on the world? It exists only in your head these days, bud. Get over it. I managed to.

And time and place, yes, opportunists and scoundrels such as yourself and your alliance live by that. Remember your outrage when NpO attacked an ally of yours? Remember when you said that simply receiving information wasn't a CB? Get back to me when your sorry excuse for an alliance displays some consistency.[/color]

[quote name='Alaric' timestamp='1295355652' post='2581189']
my last attempt at using "CN logic"

why doesn't VE roll NSO since that is where Lennox has been a member these last months?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Lennox hasn't been a member since last fall, but he was a member at one time, so I guess that's close enough.[/color]

Edited January 18, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[Cairna]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295371725' post='2581558']
Why you should give more diplomacy when you don't like your opponent? The only reason I see for VE giving more chance to diplomacy was in consideration for RoK and GOD.


To friends everything. To Foes the words of the law....
[/quote]

That is exactly what they should have done in a good world. And if they hadn't, if things were proper then RoK and GOD shouldn't be taking it with a simple "Oh, welp I guess we're neutral dudes!"

An ally hit an ally within 20 hours of being given the simplest of reasons, with a pathetic display for diplomacy and reasoning.

They should have because they have friends that would be put in tough situations. But they didn't. And so their friends positions really aren't as tough as they make it seem.

[Monster]

How do you know they did not go to either alliance first? Think this war would have gone through if that had not happened?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295360736' post='2581264']
I thought the argument was over whether this makes VE hypocrites or not. I haven't seen anyone dispute the claim that what NpO did was spying.
[/quote]
Lots of people have argued that what Dajobo did was similar to what sethb did.

[Monster]

Deputy Minister of FA vs #2 in command of an alliance? Surely, it's the same thing and this really would have gone to war if it had been the Deputy Minister of Truth.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Cairna' timestamp='1295372492' post='2581583']
That is exactly what they should have done in a good world. And if they hadn't, if things were proper then RoK and GOD shouldn't be taking it with a simple "Oh, welp I guess we're neutral dudes!"

An ally hit an ally within 20 hours of being given the simplest of reasons, with a pathetic display for diplomacy and reasoning.

They should have because they have friends that would be put in tough situations. But they didn't. And so their friends positions really aren't as tough as they make it seem.
[/quote]

You are right. However, this is between VE, RoK and GOD. My point is Polaris should not had expected diplomacy.

[Cairna]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1295372551' post='2581584']
How do you know they did not go to either alliance first? Think this war would have gone through if that had not happened?
[/quote]

It doesn't matter. Then NpO's allies have betrayed them and are just as culpable.


[quote]You are right. However, this is between VE, RoK and GOD. My point is Polaris should not had expected diplomacy.[/quote]

Because diplomacy isn't a precedent in cases like these?

Hell. If it had been FAN at least it would have made sense.

My main problem with VE is the fact that these guys just seem to have no personality. No character. Can't stick to a damn thing.

Same goes for Sparta, though. At least the orders, and even MHA, stay the course in their dealings.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Cairna

[abdur]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295370284' post='2581523']
Excessive diplomacy is the reason we haven't had a war in so long. There comes a few times in our lives when one must say: $%&@ Diplomacy. A second in command of an alliance aiding and abetting a spy after nearly a full year of blue balls is absolutely one of those times.
[/quote]
I love war.
What I like even better is an even war. Having a curbstomp once every 6 months or so isnt really my idea of 'keeping things interesting'.

[603Redneck]

I dont see why people are crying that VE didnt give polar a chance. There is obvious tension and dislike, they get evidence of spying and finally have a legit excuse to roll them. Seems pretty cut and dry to me

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295372264' post='2581578']
It's worth asking because if it's true then VE has deliberately set NpO up here. If it's false, then Lennox has deliberately set NpO up here.

In the first case, VE would have lost all appropriate reasoning for stating that they have been attacked by NpO (since they orchestrated the op from start to finish in that case). In the second case, it is simply a case of Dajobo being a bit too trusting of Lennox and VE being a bit hasty in executing war.
[/quote]
It's not worth asking, because if the drug dealer is a cop and you buy the product, you're still in the wrong. There's a difference between a bust and entrapment. Dajobo suggested VE. Dajobo opened and looked at the screenshots (asking them to be rehosted so he could see them). Dajobo thanked Lennox for the information. Dajobo went on to casually discuss warchests. He also proceeded to not be worried about having received spied information, or warn or talk to VE about it.

Even if VE had set it up (which is insanely unlikely since the suggestion to spy VE was Dajobo's idea, not Lennox'), it still wouldn't matter. Now, having been there I know it wasn't a set up by VE. Whether you believe that or not, I don't particularly care. But even if it was, Dajobo's actions were still the wrong ones. And he created a valid CB against NpO by happily accepting spy information and doing nothing about it. He doesn't get a free pass to do stupid things just because there's a minute possibility the dealer was a cop.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1295372617' post='2581586']
Lots of people have argued that what Dajobo did was similar to what sethb did.
[/quote]

Lots of people are incorrect then it seems.

NpO is at war now because its 2nd in command helped orchestrate a spy infiltrating VE. OV was put to war because established spies gave someone unassociated screenshots. If you can not see that the second example falls short of the first, then it is your comprehension at issue, not mine. Yes, Dajobo accepted screenshots, but did so as a part of a structured spy infiltration and continued operation.

If at any one time Dajobo stopped and said "hmm, I should probably not get involved with this and contact VE so they know what is up, that a spy is in their alliance because we had a talk about how best to go about doing it, and I mentioned VE/MK as well as gave some advice", then there wouldn't be a war right now, and the same people who hate us for causing this war will hate us for not growing a pair and causing this war, so I'm not too worried. Sure, Dajobo may have gotten a ZI, there could have been token reps, but here we would be again, people pissed about nothing to do.