What's Going on Here...

[Aurion]

I don't quite get why it's apparently our patriotic duty as citizens of Bob to push the "Easy Mode" button for all you incompetent $%&@ers.

Frankly.

Edit: For God's sake, it's like the people here get dumber with each passing week. If you want to take down the "New Hegemony", try growing and making friends and playing politics and accumulating resources and contacts and...Christ.

When I came to this world, the people in opposition to the ruling powers at the time at least [i]tried[/i] and were reasonably competent and getting better. People don't even seem to be [i]trying[/i] at this point.

OOC: Double edit: For the declining player base issue the main problem is that the mechanics of the system frankly suck and are positively Sisyphean. It kills people going two ways, both new people who stare up the mountain and say "to hell with this", and the older people who get so incredibly [i]sick[/i] of the mechanics that even the alliance communities can't make up for it.

If they were improved, people might be a bit more willing to maneuver around...but that's apparently not in the cards. Everyone, have or have-not, is stuck with that albatross.

Game stagnation's gonna kill this place long before political stagnation will. /ooc

/rant

Edited November 13, 2010 by Aurion

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1289640578' post='2511752']
The SF/C&G/PB/MK stranglehold on bob has led to total stagnation and has resulted in people leaving at a faster rate than any time in history. NPO might have crushed alliances from time to time but they kept things interesting and let you rebuild in a couple of months, the SF/C&G/PB/MK just huddle together and have done nothing of note all year except tie up the bigger alliances in chronicly high reps which resulted in total stagnation. Hell you cant even drop a trade with MK these days without being hit up for stupid reps, what chance do we have for war if people will be stuck paying reps for a year as happened in the last 2 wars against that group.
[/quote]

I love how people always latch onto declining population as the ultimate evil, and then blame whoever in power for it. Tell me, did more people arrive or leave Planet Bob while the continuum was in power?

As for NPO letting you rebuild in a couple of months, please point me to NAAC LUE and FAN's place in the sanction race. Oh and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

You sit there and complain about crushing terms while ignoring that the vast majority of alliances in BiPolar got off with white peace, or very light reps. The previous rulers of Bob were known for [i]not offering terms at all[/i]. But were the evil ones.

You want to know why its so quiet? Because when a problem pops up we actually attempt to solve it diplomatically instead of jumping on the slightest excuse for the chance to start a war, but according to you its bad that we actually act like statesmen instead of thugs.

The reason we see "stagnation" (which it isn't I must point out, you are just too blind to see political changes that aren't accompanied by a nuclear warhead, but that's my point, hold on) is because our so called "opponents" can't scare up one competent leader among the lot of you.

You tried to form a coalition to roll us because you feared us, and who do we see talking? Herooftime? The voice of sanity on your side is NSO! The moral beacon of your side is the man who started a fake war to avoid treaty obligation in another losing war. You lack anyone with high level political ability. Your big plan for winning a war was to use the UPN/ODN tie to draw C&G into a war against SF.

As if your extreme lack of talent wasn't bad enough, every time anything happens we see the same people hitting the OWF and taking everything to ridiculous extremes, taking PR points and overblowing the most minor things. Your overly shrill condemnations of anything we ever do, including sneezing in turn drives people away from you who might be inclined to agree with you but instead distance themselves from you out of fear that your peculiar brand of stupid might be contagious. We've got plenty of traditional rivals and foes, but people look at your side and start wondering if you really would be better or not.

[quote]
Regarding moralism, you helped create an alliance for moral reasons to defeat NPO. YOU are one of the leading reasons the moral card is used to this day. If it was ok for vox and karma then its ok for the rest of us. Welcome to the post karma world in all its glory, thanks for everything.
[/quote]

See this is the problem, and shows the difference in our two sides. You view moralism as a political tool to be manipulated just like anything else, we on the other hand are "moralist" because we actually believe that's how we should act. I find it absolutely hilarious that you call us out for not kicking the !@#$ out of anybody we please. Cause you know, your in the top 5 of my wishlist

[ckmanero]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1289687521' post='2512206']
I don't quite get why it's apparently our patriotic duty as citizens of Bob to push the "Easy Mode" button for all you incompetent $%&@ers.

Frankly.

Edit: For God's sake, it's like the people here get dumber with each passing week. If you want to take down the "New Hegemony", try growing and making friends and playing politics and accumulating resources and contacts and...Christ.

When I came to this world, the people in opposition to the ruling powers at the time at least [i]tried[/i] and were reasonably competent and getting better. People don't even seem to be [i]trying[/i] at this point.

OOC: Double edit: For the declining player base issue the main problem is that the mechanics of the system frankly suck and are positively Sisyphean. It kills people going two ways, both new people who stare up the mountain and say "to hell with this", and the older people who get so incredibly [i]sick[/i] of the mechanics that even the alliance communities can't make up for it.

If they were improved, people might be a bit more willing to maneuver around...but that's apparently not in the cards. Everyone, have or have-not, is stuck with that albatross.

Game stagnation's gonna kill this place long before political stagnation will. /ooc

/rant
[/quote]

This exactly. Just because UPN are retards dosen't mean that the rest of us alliances with a brain can't take something a little bit more complicated and engaging.

Also, WHO THE HELL SAYS WE CAN'T have war? Everybody is so concerned with being "passive" and not stepping on toes or getting on a s@#& list. They don't want the powers that be to come after them. WHO LET THOSE POWERS GET POWERFUL? Its alliances like UPN (even though they like to the power I am talking about) who don't have the stones to do anything but !@#$%* a little bit that allow things to get unbalanced.

[Alterego]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1289689053' post='2512251']
I love how people always latch onto declining population as the ultimate evil, and then blame whoever in power for it. Tell me, did more people arrive or leave Planet Bob while the continuum was in power?[/quote]

The population was higher and this idea comes from Karma. Remember you lot would say NPOs power was the reason the numbers were declining. Did the numbers go up after Karma?

[quote]As for NPO letting you rebuild in a couple of months, please point me to NAAC LUE and FAN's place in the sanction race. Oh and that's just the tip of the iceberg.[/quote]
Legion, GPA, MK, ODN, GATO, VE, Polar & FARK all fell foul of NPO & Co all sanctioned. Your point proves nothing.

[quote]You sit there and complain about crushing terms while ignoring that the vast majority of alliances in BiPolar got off with white peace, or very light reps. The previous rulers of Bob were known for [i]not offering terms at all[/i]. But were the evil ones.[/quote]
Who needs reps from every alliance when you can keep a couple of alliances in servitude from between 8 months to a year. You banged on about changing everything but kept things business as usual. It took NPO 3 years to get to their position lets see what you try and pull next year. You lot are well on your way already

[quote]You want to know why its so quiet? Because when a problem pops up we actually attempt to solve it diplomatically instead of jumping on the slightest excuse for the chance to start a war, but according to you its bad that we actually act like statesmen instead of thugs.[/quote]
Just like knights of ni, TPF & NSO very diplomatic, there are many other instances too as you are aware of or should be aware of anyway.

[quote]The reason we see "stagnation" (which it isn't I must point out, you are just too blind to see political changes that aren't accompanied by a nuclear warhead, but that's my point, hold on) is because our so called "opponents" can't scare up one competent leader among the lot of you.[/quote]
Political changes, dont make me laugh. The world is almost identical to the way it was at the end of Karma. You really think shifting slightly in your seat is political change? Your "so called opponents" are only called opponents by you people. You really want to get that message out there that we should be your opposition. If you werent so incompetent as "opposition" you would create a situation that requires opposition and not just beg for it like a hobo on a street corner.

[quote]You tried to form a coalition to roll us because you feared us, and who do we see talking? Herooftime? The voice of sanity on your side is NSO! The moral beacon of your side is the man who started a fake war to avoid treaty obligation in another losing war. You lack anyone with high level political ability. Your big plan for winning a war was to use the UPN/ODN tie to draw C&G into a war against SF.[/quote]
I tried? the first I knew about this was when it was leaked, you must be confusing me with someone else. The idea I would turn to UPN or ODN to do anything other than shine my shoes is comical.


[quote]As if your extreme lack of talent wasn't bad enough, every time anything happens we see the same people hitting the OWF and taking everything to ridiculous extremes, taking PR points and overblowing the most minor things. Your overly shrill condemnations of anything we ever do, including sneezing in turn drives people away from you who might be inclined to agree with you but instead distance themselves from you out of fear that your peculiar brand of stupid might be contagious. We've got plenty of traditional rivals and foes, but people look at your side and start wondering if you really would be better or not.[/quote]
Its hard to point out all the major things you do when you do nothing of note but play musical chairs and call it politics.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Alterego

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1289700772' post='2512414']
The population was higher and this idea comes from Karma. Remember you lot would say NPOs power was the reason the numbers were declining. Did the numbers go up after Karma?
[/quote]

I was not here for that, so I wouldn't know, but heres the million dollar question I was leading you into.

When Contiuum was running things, did you !@#$%* just as hard, or were you happy because it was your allies in charge?

Besides you didn't answer the question, I didn't ask if there were more, I asked if people were coming or going.

[quote]Legion, GPA, MK, ODN, GATO, VE, Polar & FARK all fell foul of NPO & Co all sanctioned. Your point proves nothing.
[/quote]

Neither does yours'. You've listed some people who did well in spite of, not because of.

We came back from an inferior position and threw down those in power. This is kind of my point, you all seem in capable of doing that.

[quote]Who needs reps from every alliance when you can keep a couple of alliances in servitude from between 8 months to a year. You banged on about changing everything but kept things business as usual. It took NPO 3 years to get to their position lets see what you try and pull next year. You lot are well on your way already[/quote]

I think you missed the point. Every random nobody who fought got off with little or nothing in terms of reps, those at the center of the conflict got nailed for their errors. IRON/TOP for a pre-emptive strike, NPO for well, being NPO. Also notice how we didn't start either of those wars, the other side did.

I know tunnel vision is the hall mark of your sides PR points, but there is a difference between picking a fight with somebody and then demanding reps. Vs what we did which was get attacked, defend ourselves successfully, and demand reparations from the aggressors.

[quote]
Just like knights of ni, TPF & NSO very diplomatic, there are many other instances too as you are aware of or should be aware of anyway.[/quote]

So for nearly two years you've got 3 incidents to claim? An average of once every 8 months something couldn't be solved dipolmaticaly, thats your proof we are war mongers? You really aren't trying very hard are you?
[quote]
Political changes, dont make me laugh. The world is almost identical to the way it was at the end of Karma. You really think shifting slightly in your seat is political change?
[/quote]

Well, since you've demonstrated you are too incompetent to see whats going on, far be it for me to enlighten you.


[quote]Your "so called opponents" are only called opponents by you people. You really want to get that message out there that we should be your opposition. If you werent so incompetent as "opposition" you would create a situation that requires opposition and not just beg for it like a hobo on a street corner.[/quote]

No, our opposition is called "worst coalition ever" by us, we didn't have to label them, they got together themselves when they decided GOONS constituted all that was evil and wrong in CN and had to be rolled.

We beg for real opposition because all our detractors can do is whine on the OWF, not a one of you is capable of coalition building, or even dialing down the rhetoric to the point where you stop driving away independents and undecideds. Even the alliances who don't like our section of the web still think most of your section of the web is certifiably insane and/or incompetent.

You sit around and whine about change but never do anything to accomplish it.

[quote]I tried? the first I knew about this was when it was leaked, you must be confusing me with someone else. The idea I would turn to UPN or ODN to do anything other than shine my shoes is comical.
[/quote]

Which is kind of my point, you guys can't even coalition build, you refuse to reach out diplomatically to anyone to try and achieve common goals.

Ps, when I say "you" please understand I'm using it as a collective to categorize the ex-heg/WCE/that side of the web/people who oppose us/group that really needs a freaking name. Not necessarily referring to you specifically.

[quote]
Its hard to point out all the major things you do when you do nothing of note but play musical chairs and call it politics.
[/quote]

Thats not politics to you? Forming and solidifying alliances? NPO's downfall was caused in no small part by its lack of contact with its allies. Building and maintaining relationships is all politics are at its core, everything else comes from leveraging your relationships to get what you want out of the world.

You criticize our existence while at the same time complaining about how we got here, you whine that we are the people in power while complaining we let people live in peace until they provoke us (and even then it takes a lot more to provoke us than it did the old world powers).

What is it exactly that offends you so much about us? The part where we got logs of multiple governments talking about pre-emptive strikes and fabricating CB's but did nothing? Or the part where the last two major wars were started by people other than us?

We got logs of people trying to plan out a war to roll us on the basis of nothing more than simple abstract dislike of a group, and we practically cheered you on. What more do we have to do for you? How much of the work of changing politics do we have to do for you before you do something for yourselves?

Edited November 14, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289666006' post='2511882']
Didn't you created a similar thread, not so long ago? What is, exactly, the point? This all is repeated for years now, MDP web, those on top keeping their stronghold, etc.

These threads are getting tiresome and they arent doing anything. No offense, but it is what it is. We could do without them every 10 days.
[/quote]
I don't think I've made a thread in the last 6 months.


[quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1289666052' post='2511883']
Ah. Starfox. Good to see you again. I was afraid you quit the game with Doitzel, Sponge and all them. I'm glad to see you have not.

Anyway, on topic, I agree with most of the stuff in the OP. There's a time for morals, and then there's a time where they aren't needed. When people are getting PZIed every day for little things, that is a time for morals. When an alliance declares war on a disbanded alliance, that is a time for morals. When a player is kicked out of their alliance for having a different opinion, that is a time for morals. When a member of an alliance is attacked by a tech raider and asks for small reps, that is not a time for morals. That is a time to either give up some reps, or if you don't think you should be giving reps, then it is the time to fight over it. Peace is nice, but war is needed to keep this game fun, and with out war, this game has not been fun. It's one of the reasons many old timers such as myself are not as active as they once were. It's because there is nothing to keep this game interesting. There's no drama, just a bunch of people spouting on about what's right and what's not.
[/quote]
Good to see you too, Derek. And I'm just chilling these days, trying to do my part to keep \m/ going.

[quote name='Lezrahi' timestamp='1289672588' post='2511938']
[i]Lezrahi smiled.[/i]

It is likely because most of the passionate, and, if you'll excuse the terminology, most conniving, voices and personalities have departed, or have either relegated themselves, or been relegated, to quieter places. You, yourself, have been gone for quite a while, Starfox, and it is a pity. Where are the likes of Doitzel and Electron Sponge? Where are the dangerous and ballsy individualists, such as fransjosef and Monkey Theory? Where is the Federation of Armed Nations that once had that hard, unrelenting, and somewhat bloodthirsty voice? In fact, where is FAN at all these days? Where are the \m/en of old? The Neutral Shoving Goons? Those collectives of pure controversy and hate that would attempt to lynch not only their neighbor, but the Word of admin Himself? Where is the old LUEnited Nations? Where is /b/? Where is the IngSoc-like order that once was? I must admit that, while the efforts before and during Karma were just, it seems that we killed this planet. How ironic.

The only people that seem willing to 'do something about it' these days are either insignificant or incompetent, and throw what little weight that they have at the Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence, and Sadism. As mildly amusing as that is, it is not exactly original, nor exciting, though Walford would indeed be very proud (if he would not, in actuality, be laughing at all the pretenders, who hardly live up to his passion). GOONS doesn't seem to be hurting all that much, by the look of things. Just a bunch of suicides, with notes left behind that say, "I did it for the lulz." Not really all that lulzy.

That is not to say that I cry out for all of them to return. My point is merely that they are gone, and have not been replaced.
[/quote]
\m/ is still here. We are chugging along and will one day be a force again, just wait and see.

Your point is right. There are few truly risky, aggressive individuals here. The world is run by conservative people laying back and waiting for opportunities rather than creating them. It's depressing that we have to look to the past for these people. Who will be the next Doitzel, Sponge, Moo?

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289676011' post='2511980']
So Starfox101after all this time you came back to say that you still think that moralism is immoral and that the stagnation in cyberverse is our fault even when the ones who rules this world nowadays are those who despise moralists?

And you who was part of Vox are talking about those waging a PR campaign?

Priceless...
[/quote]
I always love when this one is used against me. As I said earlier, for me, it was never about morals. It was about revenge, karma, what goes around comes around and such. Moralism is not immoral, it is just quite simply stupid.

The only ones who really despise moralists at the top are MK and GOONS. GOONS must be laughing so hard at all these people who have lumped them in as evil overlords.

Also, if you guys are waging a PR campaign you truly suck at it, and really need some better people than Alterego. Generally the first step to winning a PR war is to be competent.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1289677685' post='2511996']
I love how people make long winded speeches about everyone needing to "do something". The time it took you to write this you could have been building a coalition. If you want someone to "do something about it" get up and do something yourself.
[/quote]
This took about 5 minutes. I'm sorry I wasn't able to summon my massive influence reach and unite the world to destroy a coalition I don't dislike. I just find peace boring.

Oh, and I've done something about it myself likely more times than anyone here. Wrong person to talk to about that.

[C Mos]

[quote name='Kroknia' timestamp='1289687217' post='2512202']
I haven't raided in years, or wanted to. It was, however, one of the reasons I stayed in the game when I was young though. One of the best alliances for member retention of newbies is GOONS... Why don't we all just raid again in the lower tiers? Makes the game more interesting when you're starting out.

[/quote]
Pretty much the same here. IMO, makes this world a bit more interesting for young nations..

[King Wally]

[quote]Take a step back and look at yourself, and make adjustments. Ask yourself, "Have I made this world more entertaining, or have I assisted in the stagnation and increasing decline of the world?"[/quote]

I totally agree with starfox here... if anyone has a plan in mind to liven things up contact me and I'll do all in my power to see the dark vision of a more violent and entertaining planet bob a reality. The current situation is bordering on rediculous. THere's suposedly pivital alliances out there right now like NPO for example that havn't even fought a war for over a year... how can you play a game and not even fight a war for an entire year!!! and its not just the NPO im looking at theres dozzens of top level alliances that are well over 6 - 9 months of inactivity now And you wonder why people quit CN

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1289689053' post='2512251']
See this is the problem, and shows the difference in our two sides. You view moralism as a political tool to be manipulated just like anything else, we on the other hand are "moralist" because we actually believe that's how we should act. I find it absolutely hilarious that you call us out for not kicking the !@#$ out of anybody we please. Cause you know, your in the top 5 of my wishlist
[/quote]

To be fair, I believe the point Starfox made in the OP is that many of you guys were never really moralists but were just looking to erode the power base through clever PR schemes.

To address the OP, I think one problem is that many on the "other side" have much less against the current ruling grouping than they do with some within that side. Sure they may not love who is in power but working with the people you'd have to work with to dislodge our relatively benign overlords is just not worth it. Additionally like Fingolfin said, we went down that road before only to be punched the face by a serious case of bi-polar disorder.

So in response you just kinda put your middle finger up to the world and go relax while the contrived drama happens around you.

[C Mos]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289705580' post='2512487']
I totally agree with starfox here... if anyone has a plan in mind to liven things up contact me and I'll do all in my power to see the dark vision of a more violent and entertaining planet bob a reality. The current situation is bordering on rediculous. THere's suposedly pivital alliances out there right now like NPO for example that havn't even fought a war for over a year... how can you play a game and not even fight a war for an entire year!!! and its not just the NPO im looking at theres dozzens of top level alliances that are well over 6 - 9 months of inactivity now And you wonder why people quit CN
[/quote]
Group together, raise hell, leave.

[Branimir]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289705580' post='2512487']THere's suposedly pivital alliances out there right now like NPO for example that havn't even fought a war for over a year... how can you play a game and not even fight a war for an entire year!!![/quote]
What do you do? Well its simple, you just pay reps for little short of a year and then try to catch your breath. Id love to smash some heads you see, but I had to ship 7k tech so I cant really start just of a sudden,...I am sure that argument made perfect sense in your head though.

[White Chocolate]

Drop the baiting attempts. The rest of us are not hear for your (aka: anyone who complains they are bored) entertainment.

Edited November 14, 2010 by White Chocolate

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1289703371' post='2512460']
Neither does yours'. You've listed some people who did well in spite of, not because of.

We came back from an inferior position and threw down those in power. This is kind of my point, you all seem in capable of doing that.
[/quote]
You failed to mention that it took you three years to do so. NPO just came out of reps a few months ago. If what you keep calling "our side" passes that three year time span and still hasn't thrown you out of power, then you can start complaining.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289707795' post='2512507']
What do you do? Well its simple, you just pay reps for little short of a year and then try to catch your breath. Id love to smash some heads you see, but I had to ship 7k tech so I cant really start just of a sudden,...I am sure that argument made perfect sense in your head though.
[/quote]

Well we need to put an end to rediculous post war reps then, for the good of the game, you need to see this from my perspective as someone that started playing CN as NPO was surrendering last year, all ive known of the NPO in my time here is very different to what you have perceived. I genuinly feel sorry for you guys im not taking a dig, while ive been able to fight 3 quite entertaining alliance wars over the last year and a half all you guys have been able to do is sit on the sidelines and hit collect taxes pay bills.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289652250' post='2511792']
Any alliance that disbanded as a result of fighting the NPO should have anyway. They didn't have the will to fight on then they should go away. NPO back then and even alliances now...no one can force disbandment. It's only a lack of will that causes disbandment. Stop trying to make NPO more evil than it ever was. You don't even believe it. You just like using it cuz you like to think you lived under oppression and finally FINALLY broke your chains and revolted. You didn't. You are not a hero. Karma was just another war. It was not a revolution. It's romantic to think Karma was the biggest thing ever, but it was just another war.
[/quote]
I don't know about you but I kind of think a world without EZI is better than what we had before.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289705580' post='2512487']
I totally agree with starfox here... if anyone has a plan in mind to liven things up contact me and I'll do all in my power to see the dark vision of a more violent and entertaining planet bob a reality. The current situation is bordering on rediculous. THere's suposedly pivital alliances out there right now like NPO for example that havn't even fought a war for over a year... how can you play a game and not even fight a war for an entire year!!! and its not just the NPO im looking at theres dozzens of top level alliances that are well over 6 - 9 months of inactivity now And you wonder why people quit CN
[/quote]
Well granted, not every alliance is a mover and shaker like Ragnarok, fighting a different war every two weeks.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289707795' post='2512507']
What do you do? Well its simple, you just pay reps for little short of a year and then try to catch your breath. Id love to smash some heads you see, but I had to ship 7k tech so I cant really start just of a sudden,...I am sure that argument made perfect sense in your head though.
[/quote]
Well, if you don't want to ship so much tech out in reps, don't spend 2-3 years stomping out all your NPOgroupthink perceived enemies with crap CBs only to get caught with your hand in the OV cookie jar.

Anyway, warchests are insulation against losing and any kind of "crushing" reps. The victors in war will always give lower rep amounts when they know the defeated can launch nukes for 9-12 months at 1k infra. So what I see you saying is, "We were on top for so long, but didn't save enough cash for the eventual losing war."

edit: and yes I'm looking at you Ninjas. Touche.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Steve Buscemi

[Xiphosis]

[quote]So, please explain to me what I've missed[/quote]

Of the people left, there's simply not enough unlikable people to form a significant other side.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Xiphosis

[caligula]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1289687521' post='2512206']

OOC: Double edit: For the declining player base issue the main problem is that the mechanics of the system frankly suck and are positively Sisyphean. It kills people going two ways, both new people who stare up the mountain and say "to hell with this", and the older people who get so incredibly [i]sick[/i] of the mechanics that even the alliance communities can't make up for it.

If they were improved, people might be a bit more willing to maneuver around...but that's apparently not in the cards. Everyone, have or have-not, is stuck with that albatross.

Game stagnation's gonna kill this place long before political stagnation will. /ooc

/rant
[/quote]


And we have a winner.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1289705702' post='2512489']
To address the OP, I think one problem is that many on the "other side" have much less against the current ruling grouping than they do with some within that side. Sure they may not love who is in power but working with the people you'd have to work with to dislodge our relatively benign overlords is just not worth it. Additionally like Fingolfin said, we went down that road before only to be punched the face by a serious case of bi-polar disorder.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's really the problem as I see it. There isn't really a cohesive force that could oppose PB right now because it would require too many alliances that hate one another working together. The WCE illustrated that quite well. I think a lot of the AA's that they were looking to gather for that coalition would have loved to take a shot at GOONS, but the problem was that a lot of them hated UPN a good deal more.

[Branimir]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289715884' post='2512594']Well we need to put an end to rediculous post war reps then, for the good of the game, you need to see this from my perspective as someone that started playing CN as NPO was surrendering last year, all ive known of the NPO in my time here is very different to what you have perceived. I genuinly feel sorry for you guys im not taking a dig, while ive been able to fight 3 quite entertaining alliance wars over the last year and a half all you guys have been able to do is sit on the sidelines and hit collect taxes pay bills.[/quote]
Well, I am only pointing out certain relevant facts here, which makes it a bit strange that NPO is called out on being "inactive", while it was almost a year under terms and once heading out of them due to their sheer size indeed has to spend some time building up to be able to do anything significant.

In conclusion, the entire premise of the victorious side (which includes your AA) in "karma war" was to make NPO inactive and on the sidelines. Neutralized. It is strange that you would now complain about achieving what you set, though, as explained you are new so I now understand how you could make this argument. Its all cool.

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1289723218' post='2512649']Well, if you don't want to ship so much tech out in reps, don't spend 2-3 years stomping out all your NPOgroupthink perceived enemies with crap CBs only to get caught with your hand in the OV cookie jar. [/quote]
An irrelevant comment in regards to my post you quoted. I am just stating facts as to why NPO is so "inactive" as the guy was calling us out on it.

I didn't give any value judgment of it in sense that; if its right or not, did we deserve it or not, etc. You can spare us all of the same old dribble. You indeed only have one note in your posts, quite the one dimensional character you seem to be. It is not necessary to integrate it in every post even if its not relevant to the debate had, and that was of inactivity of alliances and in special case- NPO; in recent times.

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1289723218' post='2512649']Anyway, warchests are insulation against losing and any kind of "crushing" reps. The victors in war will always give lower rep amounts when they know the defeated can launch nukes for 9-12 months at 1k infra. So what I see you saying is, "We were on top for so long, but didn't save enough cash for the eventual losing war."[/quote]
Again as per usual, not even slightly relevant to my post or the debate had. Again, I am not debating "justification" for reps, nor "reasons" for them, nor "cause" for them, etc.

I am stating facts as to why we are so, inactive, as we are called out.
We had to send more tech then we had at the end of the war, and that, in majority by a locked number of nations (+1k tech nations after war). I am not whining, I am just pointing out facts. That translated, means that the core fighting potential of NPO was not only drained from their remaining tech, but quite then some, meaning that after we left terms we were at zero. And, it takes time to get again to reasonable amounts of tech, considering its cost and ever dwindling number of tech selling nations. It just doesn't happen over night, and that is exactly what victors had set up to do. Kudos to them.

Those are facts, that are relevant to the issue raised and addressed between King Wally and me. Your interjection, as per usual, is nothing more then just waste of forum space considering its just the same old note you keep on repeating in all of your posts. I don't know why you are so limiting yourself or your character in public, maybe you think you are annoying someone or proving something. Well, you arent. You could try a new twist to refresh things, though, I doubt your abilities to. You could surprise me.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Branimir

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1289621332' post='2511607']
Waaah reps if we lose [img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-qq.gif[/img]

Easy solution, [i]don't lose[/i]. Take some pride in your alliance, build it into an actual power, not just a smattering of inactive pseudo-ghosts like most alliances, particularly sanctioned ones. If you and your allies make an attempt at it, you might have a shot at breaking the status quo! Even if you do lose, you can basically not pay at all if you fight long enough and do enough damage to take your opponent to the breaking point, which TOP was very capable of doing at the time of their surrender. If you build your alliance properly, you too can do this! (but you don't and you won't because you're objectively terrible and all you do is post here about stagnation and how it's entirely not your fault)
[/quote]
I have to agree with this. MHA, NPO, and other large alliances keep growing. For what? I understand the need to recruit so you have a tech selling base but it should be much more crucial to develop the most active member nations to the following minimums:

2,000 Technology
8,500 Infrastructure
Manhattan Project
Strategic Defense Initiative
Weapons Research Complex
25 Nuclear Weapons
$1 Billion War Chest minimum
*Some wonders have prerequisites which would be achieved along the way/Plus all the military wonders.

If you alliances concentrate on having a superiority of this type of nation then that would really be a changer. Having a bunch of tiny inactives that don't listen and don't grow according to a nation building guide is a waste of time and effort. If a nation does not grow (war being the exception) to 3,999 in 3 months then they are a waste of a member. Some alliances are far too patient with some useless nations and would be better served focusing on building up their actives to a war ready state where they would be able to make an impact.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Fernando12

[Branimir]

Nonsense.

There also needs to be non elitist alliances in CN. Or what is the point of alliances any longer? Small in statistical terms nations and those rulers not giving their life to this all are nations as any other and if they seek home-- we shall give them one. That is the point of alliances. And quite often, they contribute significantly to their home.

We give all nations a home if they want it and a chance to contribute within the parameters of their ability. Little boys clubs, are not for all in the end.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Branimir

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1289640578' post='2511752']
Regarding moralism, you helped create an alliance for moral reasons to defeat NPO. YOU are one of the leading reasons the moral card is used to this day. If it was ok for vox and karma then its ok for the rest of us. Welcome to the post karma world in all its glory, thanks for everything.
[/quote]

Please stop. He has enough of an ego as it is. He's not a leading reason, more like a flag. As long as a flag meets certain basic requirements, most people don't care all that much.

Edited November 14, 2010 by White Chocolate

[eyriq]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1289685335' post='2512166']
Hey old pal. I'll just say that all you have to do to figure things out is look at the government rosters of all the major players. Same names from 2 years ago, sometimes 3 or 4. They've all got the same mindsets, same prejudices, same squabbles about ancient history, same tactics.

Take this for example:



This guy thinks that creating a bloc that is an extension of SF and C&G, or scrapping all your treaties then re-signing them is "movement" and "unpredictable."

There was a very brief moment, Starfox, a blink-of-an-eye window, but it's gone.
[/quote]

Had to do a double take but by golly you are right, I've been around for 2 years! Hurray me.

As to the significance of PB time will tell, but the landscape has certainly changed. C&G and SF are diminished, NpO and their friends appear solidly opposed to PB, Sparta has shown a hint of creating their own power sphere or at least also moving opposite PB, etc. In other words SG as we knew it is past and things are much looser, with still much to be determined. A SG hegemony didn't happen though it easily could have. And for that we have MK and PB to thank.

Unless of course we wish to cling to the belief that this world is stagnating and dying, and thereby bring about a self-fulfilling prophesy.