Decree of the Sith

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1281473429' post='2410130']
A significant number of the "downtrodden" in the world are far from trash, merely out of favour with the status quo. While I am not insinuating that random rogues are somehow gems, being able to welcome talented people who nobody else would take because of their history does tend to give your alliance significant talent.
[/quote]
Lesson: Make sure to accept and aid "talented" rogues and you can be a war hero too.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1281473429' post='2410130']
A significant number of the "downtrodden" in the world are far from trash, merely out of favour with the status quo. While I am not insinuating that random rogues are somehow gems, being able to welcome talented people who nobody else would take because of their history does tend to give your alliance significant talent.
[/quote]

Yes, yes but not everyone can be as successful at it as we are

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281472784' post='2410123']
Besides, if you let trash in the alliance, sooner or later one will get to be gov and make a rash decision that gets you attacked. That may or may not be the case here.
[/quote]

Is that a veiled reference to Heft as trash?

[Thrash]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1281467368' post='2410006']
snip
[/quote]

Oh hai, Steve. Long time, no see.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1281454797' post='2409713']
4 alliances aren't needed, and that was a silly statement.
[/quote]
Actually, if you read their posts, you'll find a number of people in the attacking alliances stating that all of the alliances were in fact needed to get proper coverage.

[LucasSnow]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281470716' post='2410076']
By that same logic NSO committed an act of war by accepting a rogue.

Either way, the fault lies with NSO.
[/quote]

I think it's been confirmed now that this "rogue" was at war because of a failed spy attack, thus his attacks were justified. If you can prove to me that he began this aggressive trend beforehand than this falls short, but until you can the facts ring true.

This is still a moot point when it comes to my argument. How NSO handles their accepting of members is an internal process and RoK has no say what so ever in this, NSO is a sovereign alliance is it not? They can accept who they wish. RoK being a soveriegn alliance also can view this however they wish too. If they wish to view it as an act of war that's on them. But trumping it up to things that occurred after the fact, ie: the Aid, is not going to fly here.

By your own logic here RoK's true CB is a dispute in how NSO handles accepting members, ie: NSO accepted someone they consider to be a rogue, rogue status is opinionated and up to debate see. Thus RoK truly "DoWed" the moment the first attacks went out, if not on paper at least. Thus RoK is the aggressor in this. NSO is only defending it's member.

NSO went on from this point to do the right thing. Rather than jump the gun and declare an all out war on an Alliance who had clearly just done the same to them; they instead approached RoK diplomatically. They were promptly met with ultimatums and little to no proof of claims.

Now correct me if I am wrong here but is it usually acceptable to demand such ultimatums instead of trying to compromise and find a diplomatic solution? Seem a form of condescension to me, and could be viewed as a personal insult unto the sovereignty of NSO as an alliance.

Putting even all of this aside, which can not be done lightly at all, RoK was still clearly aggressive in the matter. Aid was sent and instead of further contact an 'official' DOW was made, I say official because as stated above technically RoK had already attacked NSO.

Do you know what the Aid was sent for? RoK was already in the wrong morally here for attacking first, you guys are the moral ones right? So to make such demands and dictate how a sovereign alliance can and cannot handle it's members and their wars is and should be considered 'morally wrong'. For all you know the Aid was sent so that the 'rogue' could pay reparations and end this 'conflict' swiftly.

Putting all this conflict aside it boils down to this; RoK attacked NSO aggressively in a direct assault on the sovereignty of NSO as an alliance. While they may not have meant for this to occur this is the direct result of attacking NSO before making diplomatic connection to resolve the issue.

Claim your CB be to be what you wish, and claim faults on whichever side you wish, the facts remain. RoK hit NSO first, without contact, and with malicious intent.

o/ NSO for handling all this as smoothly as you did. Things could have been handled better on both sides in my honest opinion, but no one is perfect and you obviously did the best you could at the time.

NSO has already fessed up and apologized to their wrong doing in this, which by the way was not the first, when is RoK going to do the same, that first wrong doing, yes; you know your malicious attack, and both sides try to settle this like adults?

Note: I accept this will be looked over, ignored, or picked apart and spun to their advantage by most, I posted it anyways. Done.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281459589' post='2409824']
Will you throw a member to the wolves over hearsay?
[/quote]
Yep. They will.

This is the same bunch of people who used to hang out with Ephriam Grey. You remember him?

[King MyLife]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281472511' post='2410117']
It didn't. Failed diplomacy did.

Whether or not we choose to accept vagabonds, thieves, your mom, rogues, or whomever - is our choice. Not yours. Not Hoos. Not Admins.

The reason we're at war is because of a bad decision over sending aid without getting proper information (which they were not willing to share anyways).
[/quote]

You kind sir have a good point..

[SonOfHoward]

Accept a nation at war into your alliance and expect problems. It's always been the way.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281474257' post='2410149']
Yep. They will.

This is the same bunch of people who used to hang out with Ephriam Grey. You remember him?
[/quote]

Ephie lol I actually kinda miss him for some weird reason

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281474025' post='2410140']
Is that a veiled reference to Heft as trash?
[/quote]

I don't know him, so I stopped short of saying so. Acting unilaterally as a government member generally isn't a favorable sign, though.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1281467368' post='2410006']
Says the alliance that did the exact same thing countless times. The only thing different is NPO did it in a time when attacking NS ranges were much wider and when your allies had more members. You asked for Q to jump in when you wanted the #1 spot again and attacked GPA and you asked for all of 1V to join your revenge war against GATO.

The amount of hypocrisy NPO still displays is hilarious. Now, the only question is if your grand displays of cowardice when your ally is attacked are greater than your hypocrisy.
[/quote]

NPO was the number 1 alliance before GPA was attacked. That is fact.

As to the second part of your post it looks like you just copy pasted one of King Zog's earlier posts. [img]http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/glitters/b/bravo-7466.gif[/img]

Edited August 10, 2010 by silentkiller

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Learz' timestamp='1281445647' post='2409561']
As one who was there during that time, I can safely say you are talking out of your arse.
What else goes on in this private little world of yours? You secretly rule Planet Bob? NSO started this war? We're all meanies for pointing out the holes in your reasoning?
[/quote]

Which part? That we didn't disband them like Haf tried to claim? That's true, we didn't.

Quoting Jerdge here about the history of those NONE alliances,

[quote]AHEAD wasn't forced to disband by anybody, it survived the war and it (much) later merged into the MHA. NEAT dissolved but it later reformed, and ITT they're still around.
AHEAD, NEAT, TRR (has TTE anything to do with the others anyway?) and maybe some other (I don't recall) were also "real" alliances - at least as "real" as something can be in this "make believe" world: we certainly were not a "ragtag bunch of folks who called themselves non-alliances".[/quote]

(I apologize for the ragtag bit, I didn't mean to be rude making the post, it was late, and rather annoyed, excuse me.)

But yeah, we totally disbanded them. We have a "history" of doing it. Guys, you can't play the pity card over stuff that never happened, much less say "omg, they're going to try to disband us *propaganda*" it's sad. And yes, NSO did start the war the instant they decided to say screw you to Hoo after being flat out told it'd be considered an act of war if they aided a guy at war with their protectorate, regardless of why the war was ongoing, it was none of their darned business unless they decided to take the guy in. Rational folks would of bowed up at the line being crossed, words might of been exchanged, and cooler heads would of prevailed. Instead Hoo got a "I DARE YOU" in his face and took it and did something about it, something the Sith in the past have dared folks to do. The crying over it now is O.o

I've seen folks admit the aiding was a mistake and it could of been handled better. Great. Now instead of trolling and e-posing, how about you all get into a room and work it out, it's stupid to waste your nations over a rogue and one guy's need to say "no U" to Hoo. We don't like each other? Good, makes the game and the forums interesting, I just wish some folks here would actually try to use facts instead of making up stuff on the fly and changing definitions of words every time a war breaks out, lol.

[quote]Actually, if you read their posts, you'll find a number of people in the attacking alliances stating that all of the alliances were in fact needed to get proper coverage. [/quote]

Which, while [b]sad[/b] at the level of instant military readiness we showed, kinda proves our point that this isn't some sort of hair brained plot to draw NPO out doesn't it? We were all caught off guard and our deploys show that. Not going at update but in the middle of a lazy sunday? If we were looking for any small excuse, we'd of been ready to roll. Heck we still have a chunk of folks on vacation that have no idea what's going on.

[Deadshot]

[quote]It is widely recognized by both sides that the NPO and its allies have dominated the game since the end of the Third Great War, when the Initiative decisively crushed the remnants of the League Of Extraordinary Alliances and CoaLUEtion. Since then, various wrongs have been perpetuated by the Hegemony, which by and large went unopposed due to an inability to hold them accountable either diplomatically or militarily.[b] Among these injustices include the practices of curbstomping smaller alliances,[/b] “occupying” enemies, [b]issuing exorbitant reparation demands,[/b] and the practice of EZI. [i]Also, most Karma alliances oppose policies such as the Moldavi Doctrine,[/i] which they view as a form of color-based authoritarianism born out of arrogance rather than the benevolence that NPO claims it to be. Therefore, Karma views this war as a means to dispense justice upon the Hegemony for their prior misdeeds and to re-establish some semblance of accountability.[/quote]


Two out of four isn't too bad.

[i]*Taken from the description of "Karma" and why it was fought. Italics used to show that those alliances who made up Karma have a history of infringing on alliance sovereignty.[/i]

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281474257' post='2410149']
Yep. They will.

This is the same bunch of people who used to hang out with Ephriam Grey. You remember him?
[/quote]
IIRC he spent all his time sucking up to people more powerful than him. Kind of like an individual version of your alliance, no?

Edited August 10, 2010 by New Frontier

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281472511' post='2410117']
It didn't. Failed diplomacy did.

Whether or not we choose to accept vagabonds, thieves, your mom, rogues, or whomever - is our choice. Not yours. Not Hoos. Not Admins.
[/quote]

You can choose to accept the dregs of CN if you wish, but understand there are reasons most of the rest of us don't. And if you want these people as members you will experience the drawbacks as well. Accept someone on a ZI list if you want, just expect that the issues that put him on that list will become your issues.

[quote]
The reason we're at war is because of a bad decision over sending aid without getting proper information (which they were not willing to share anyways).
[/quote]

The reason you are at war is because you thought it'd be hilarious to tweak Hoo's nose over a rogue and didn't take his threat of war if you pushed the issue seriously. Diplomacy failed when NSO decided to send aid instead of taking a minute to double check the targets warscreen for outgoing wars. Trying to blame Rok for your own governmental/diplomatic failures gets you nowhere. NSO decided to accept a nation with active wars. NSO decided to aid that nation after being warned off. NSO inherited that nations problems.

Every other sane alliance when informed that one of their members is on a wanted list asks whats required to get that nation off the hook.

NSO decided to push their "We do things different from everybody, screw the rules!" Motto and found out there is a damn good reason why some things are done certain ways. Maybe in the future NSO will consider why a certain international convention exists before deciding to try to discard it.

[Heft]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281475724' post='2410181']
I don't know him, so I stopped short of saying so. Acting unilaterally as a government member generally isn't a favorable sign, though.
[/quote]
Well, I guess I could have ignored RoK's deliberate act of war upon my alliance just because they're bigger and stuff.

[Heft]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281477583' post='2410216']The reason you are at war is because you thought it'd be hilarious to tweak Hoo's nose over a rogue and didn't take his threat of war if you pushed the issue seriously. Diplomacy failed when NSO decided to send aid instead of taking a minute to [b]double check the targets warscreen for outgoing wars.[/b] Trying to blame Rok for your own governmental/diplomatic failures gets you nowhere. NSO decided to accept a nation with active wars. NSO decided to aid that nation after being warned off. NSO inherited that nations problems.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why people keep mentioning this when it doesn't actually have anything to do with the actions that supposedly led RoK to declare war.

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281477956' post='2410228']
I'm not sure why people keep mentioning this when it doesn't actually have anything to do with the actions that supposedly led RoK to declare war.
[/quote]
Let me try to dumb it down a bit.

You have accepted a nation with 2 active agressive wars with tene (agressive meaning he has declared them).
10 seconds of investigation by MHA showed that the situation between Sedrick and Tene was complicated to say the least.
Rok is Tene's protector and gives notice to you that they consider him a rogue and declare War against him.
You and Hoo discuss this on IRC and Hoo gives you his warning.
You order aid sent, therefor involving yourselve and your alliance in an active conflict between Tene/Rok and a Rogue.

Do you see the connection now? Frankly as long as he was actively attacking a Rok Protectorate, there can be no excuse for sending him war aid.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281477956' post='2410228']
I'm not sure why people keep mentioning this when it doesn't actually have anything to do with the actions that supposedly led RoK to declare war.
[/quote]

Because people keep !@#$%*ing about how Rok never supplied proof the nation had done anything wrong. Two seconds and the "Search wars" button solve that.

Knowing then that Rok had beef, you should have stopped and investigated before deciding to do something silly like oh, provoke a war.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281481415' post='2410330']
Because people keep !@#$%*ing about how Rok never supplied proof the nation had done anything wrong. Two seconds and the "Search wars" button solve that.

Knowing then that Rok had beef, you should have stopped and investigated before deciding to do something silly like oh, provoke a war.
[/quote]

So Rok had beef with a nation that NSO had accepted as a member. Wheres the part where Rok and NSO work something out, instead of Rok immediately bypassing diplomacy in trying to sort it out and going straight to attacking a member of NSO? If your going to attack a member of an alliance, either get permission to do it (which was very feasible in this situation), or accept that its an act of aggression no less then sending aid to a member at war. Rok's attitude was "You've got a member we don't like, doesn't matter if he's a member of yours or not, we're going to attack him".

[der_ko]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281481659' post='2410335']
So Rok had beef with a nation that NSO had accepted as a member. Wheres the part where Rok and NSO work something out, instead of Rok immediately bypassing diplomacy in trying to sort it out and going straight to attacking a member of NSO? If your going to attack a member of an alliance, either get permission to do it (which was very feasible in this situation), or accept that its an act of aggression no less then sending aid to a member at war. Rok's attitude was "You've got a member we don't like, doesn't matter if he's a member of yours or not, we're going to attack him".
[/quote]
Next time your alliance has a "beef" with a random nation we'll accept him into MK asap and you can come and beg for our permission to attack him. Sounds like great fun when I think about it.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='der_ko' timestamp='1281482143' post='2410347']
Next time your alliance has a "beef" with a random nation we'll accept him into MK asap and you can come and beg for our permission to attack him. Sounds like great fun when I think about it.
[/quote]

Perhaps you guys are so used to your time at the top that you forget about being reasonable and actually trying to be diplomatic instead of taking what you want while giving nothing? Rok could have [u]tried[/u] to talk to NSO about the situation instead of immediately proceeding to fill Sedricks slots with war. They didn't, And then they had the audacity to be upset when NSO does something crazy like send the guy six million dollars?

If Rok had went to NSO, given them the information that had been asked of them to try to work something out about either having Sedrick ejected or getting the go-ahead to attack him, and NSO said no, I wouldn't be making this argument, but thats not how it played out.

Edited August 10, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1281477093' post='2410203']
NPO was the number 1 alliance before GPA was attacked. That is fact.

As to the second part of your post it looks like you just copy pasted one of King Zog's earlier posts. [img]http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/glitters/b/bravo-7466.gif[/img]
[/quote]

One could do worse, frankly.

[ShotgunWilly]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281483447' post='2410366']
One could do worse, frankly.
[/quote]

That is definitely what I would call a subject for much debate

Edited August 10, 2010 by ShotgunWilly