Viridian Entente Declaration of War

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364922' post='2407485']
[22:12] <Heft> The only evidence we have paints him as the defender, with TENE clearly provoking him

Sorry, my bad. It's still pretty clear that Ragnarok was looking for a CB here, and they've always been good with "Failed to obey Hoo" as one.
[/quote]
What ever happened to NSO accepting rogues/ZI listers/etc, but leaving them to get peace on their own? NSO could have waited to see evidence (or lack thereof) before aiding him, they way they did it just looks like an attempt to provoke Rok into a game of chicken.

[Haflinger]

I note how everyone is now equating Heft with NSO.

Heft, congratulations! You've been promoted.

[Logan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365261' post='2407504']
I note how everyone is now equating Heft with NSO.

Heft, congratulations! You've been promoted.
[/quote]

Seems like he was speaking in official capacity to me...

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365261' post='2407504']
I note how everyone is now equating Heft with NSO.

Heft, congratulations! You've been promoted.
[/quote]

I note how you are now bringing something pretty irrelevant up, because your argument fell to pieces.

Hurrr.

Edit: I suppose it's not completely irrelevant, just a nice try at changing the topic.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Phetion

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Logan' timestamp='1281365386' post='2407510']
Seems like he was speaking in official capacity to me...
[/quote]
He was. He was speaking as an official of the NSO.

Not its leader.

Imagine one day, Joe Stupid did something that would normally be considered an act of war. Wouldn't you expect another alliance to go and talk to Hoo to try and resolve the situation first before ordering a curbstomp?

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365512' post='2407516']
He was. He was speaking as an official of the NSO.

Not its leader.

Imagine one day, Joe Stupid did something that would normally be considered an act of war. Wouldn't you expect another alliance to go and talk to Hoo to try and resolve the situation first before ordering a curbstomp?
[/quote]


In all honesty, if say No-Fish did something stupid in GOD government, I'd expect to receive the repercussions. I'd fully support the decision he took however.

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365512' post='2407516']
He was. He was speaking as an official of the NSO.

Not its leader.

Imagine one day, Joe Stupid did something that would normally be considered an act of war. Wouldn't you expect another alliance to go and talk to Hoo to try and resolve the situation first before ordering a curbstomp?
[/quote]
Gov members speaking their mind on the OWF equals the opinion of the alliance, despite them not being the head of the alliance. Why should this change when a gov member decides to act on something off the OWF?

[Wadsworth]

NSO is a terrible alliance that shouldn't exist so this war gets my stamp of approval.

[img]http://i36.tinypic.com/2iw6qzc.jpg[/img]

Good luck VE.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I noticed that VE and GATO are allies. Did you guys discuss attacking their ally, NSO, at all?

[leprecon]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1281365026' post='2407491']
There isn't a single word of anything that could be described as evidence of that nation being a rogue provided in all of those logs you've quote. All there is are bolded assetions that he is so.
[/quote]

I never said I was supplying evidence.

Haflinger said
[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281360905' post='2407382']
In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war [b]for no reason at all.[/b]
[/quote]

and I just showed the logs that prove that ROK had a reason for considering aid to that nation an act of war.
Its not like ROK picked some random nation and said "aiding that nation is now an act of war" they had their reasons for choosing that nation.
If you want to debate the CB, that is fine, just don't pretend there isn't one.

Edit2:

And if you really want proof, look [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1"]here[/url]
I mean... The wars are still going on. What more proof do you need of him being a rogue.

Edited August 9, 2010 by leprecon

[Goldie]

Look at me! I'm not the first in command of VE, I'm not the 2nd in command either!

But I make a post declaring war. Will there be no repercussions? Are alliances not allowed to counter us until they talk to Impero? Clearly since I am not the figure on top, I have no authority to do any actions or say anything on behalf of the alliance, so in fact you all have been duped. This post and this war do not exist, because since I am not the leader of VE nothing I say can be interpreted as the will of VE.

Wait, that isn't the case. Because I have a position and the authority that comes with this, and as part of that I have to accept the fact that I am in this position because VE trusts me to carry it out, and that anything I do will not only have repercussions for me, but it will for my alliance too. Heft unfortunately was in the same situation. If Heft speaks for NSO on an issue, then how he speaks will have repercussions because his alliance entrusts Heft to have that responsibility. If you do not want government doing things that will get you killed, then make sure your government doesn't do things like what Heft did.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367894' post='2407610']
I noticed that VE and GATO are allies. Did you guys discuss attacking their ally, NSO, at all?
[/quote]

Yes, they knew it was coming.

[leprecon]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367894' post='2407610']
I noticed that VE and GATO are allies. Did you guys discuss attacking their ally, NSO, at all?
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386"]Linky[/url] (note the timestamp on that announcement and on the VE DOW)

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367894' post='2407610']
I noticed that VE and GATO are allies. Did you guys discuss attacking their ally, NSO, at all?
[/quote]

I believe GATO was made aware of the situation by their allies. As is evidenced by these posts.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281332777' post='2406715']
This was considered, but when I have three allies and people just hearing through the rumor mill what's going on telling me that NSO and RoK are going at it, before I heard anything from NSO it ticks me off.
~snip~
[/quote]


[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281333462' post='2406751']
~snip~
Or that the people who told us they'd support us no matter what path we took: VE, ODN, Athens, and even our little protectorate ICAN told us important info we needed to know. While we were an after thought to NSO.
[/quote]

[Duncan King]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281356917' post='2407334']
Oh dear, someone's raised that again. I ignored it last time but this time I'm going to correct you. Lord Swampy was never accepted into GPA, and more specifically, GPA did not aid him after being told not to do so. He switched to the AA – something no alliance can prevent – and was considered for membership; when GPA found he was ZI-listed they rejected his application.

In this case, NSO knowingly and willingly took in a rogue, were directly told that aiding that rogue would be taken as an act of war and then deliberately sent that aid immediately afterwards.

The parallels don't go much further than 'someone got attacked' and trying to claim the situations are similar is good old Hegemonic revisionism.
[/quote]
And Swampy only went to GPA's AA because a couple people asked him to do that on Skype.

I'm not really sure what your point is here though, Bob, or what it has to do with the current situation.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Duncan King

[Goldie]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1281368576' post='2407628']
And Swampy only went to GPA's AA because a couple people asked him to do that on Skype.

I'm not really sure what your point is here though, Bob, or what it has to do with the current situation.
[/quote]

His point is that there is a huge difference between a) accepting a rogue, telling the people who want to hit said rogue that you will protect him, then aiding said rogue after being told if you aid them it will be war, and then having your alliance declared on and b) having a rogue ghost then apply to your alliance, rejecting his application, and then being declared on.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I'm not really sure what your point is here though, Bob, or what it has to do with the current situation.[/quote]
That's exactly my point, actually. A couple of members of old Hegemony alliances (deSouza and Haflinger that I've seen) have been trying to make out that this is similar to attacking GPA. I was pointing out that it is completely different.

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='sethb' timestamp='1281310783' post='2405167']
You should teach your allies some common sense then.
[/quote]

Perhaps you could teach your allies to use diplomacy, rather than thinly-veiled ultimatums.

[leprecon]

[quote name='m3g4tr0n' timestamp='1281383572' post='2408148']
Perhaps you could teach your allies to use diplomacy, rather than thinly-veiled ultimatums.
[/quote]

Thinly veiled ?

It was crystal clear;

[quote]<VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war[/quote]

If you don't understand that then you need help.

[Letum]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281369394' post='2407649']
That's exactly my point, actually. A couple of members of old Hegemony alliances (deSouza and Haflinger that I've seen) have been trying to make out that this is similar to attacking GPA. I was pointing out that it is completely different.
[/quote]

Yes, because the CB on GPA did not include monetary aid being sent to an enemy nation and a subsequent failure to deal with the matter promptly.

[leprecon]

I was actually closely involved in that war. GPA at no point said they would protect that guy.
He was an applicant and was expelled as soon as there was a mention of him being an enemy.

(Also, kurushio said that before the public outrage GPA leaders were told that it was ok to accept LordSwampy. Then the public outrage came and LordSwampy was immediately outed.)

edit: it even says so [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/GPA_war"]here[/url]

[quote]Offering protection to Lord Swampy a nation on the Valhalla perma zi list. It turns out he was only offered affiliate status, which doesn't mean he was offered protection from anyone's ZI lists. He was expelled from GPA as soon as GPA found out he was on NPO's and Valhalla's perma-ZI lists. (Both groups did not inform the GPA, and came in yelling about the acceptance)[/quote]

Edited August 9, 2010 by leprecon

[Madder Red]

Good luck to our viridian friends.

[shahenshah]

I wish you good luck in resolving this situation as quickly as possible.

Edited August 9, 2010 by shahenshah

[Bilrow]

[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1281389636' post='2408390']
I was actually closely involved in that war. GPA at no point said they would protect that guy.
He was an applicant and was expelled as soon as there was a mention of him being an enemy.

(Also, kurushio said that before the public outrage GPA leaders were told that it was ok to accept LordSwampy. Then the public outrage came and LordSwampy was immediately outed.)

edit: it even says so [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/GPA_war"]here[/url]
[/quote]


I'm pretty sure he's referring to the issue from IRON on:

A GPA member aiding a member of GOONS, and not kicked till almost 3 weeks later, with GPA lying to IRON about putting this member on trial for a week. It was later revealed that this was largely due to inactivity among key GPA government members.


From your link to the wiki.

[Sceptor o Sordidness]

Go get 'em Viridia!