Viridian Entente Declaration of War

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1281326982' post='2406369']
You got that from me you dirty heathen!
[/quote]

Wouldn't surprise me

Best of luck VE, not that you'll need it o/

[America]

I can't wait! Might as well call it now.
[img]http://www.kittybean.com/images/stfu/wahmbulance.jpg[/img]

[VenetianBlind]

If only you had been countered, goldie, it would have been like winning that bet all over again. <3

[Deezznutts]

[font="Arial Black"]hahaha dam we are just getting gang banged now!! Here I will save you the trouble of trying to find me considering the recent messages I have gotten VE has a craving for Deezznutts! [url="http://http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=416155"]Valhala[/url][/font]

[Cobalt]

[quote name='Deezznutts' timestamp='1281336543' post='2406954']
[font="Arial Black"]hahaha dam we are just getting gang banged now!! Here I will save you the trouble of trying to find me considering the recent messages I have gotten VE has a craving for Deezznutts! [url="http://http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=416155"]Valhala[/url][/font]
[/quote]

Someone showed me this on IRC:

[img]http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/Xerxer17/NSOprop3.png[/img]

The nations of viridia tremble at your mighty threats of... forgetting to attack?

[Deezznutts]

[font="Arial Black"]Sweet Im just getting so many new friends its great! Im like really popular ok they are cirulating my words around haha. So how do they taste?[/font]

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281318178' post='2405836']
Bran, the difference here is that RoK actually have a decent CB for attacking.
[/quote]
Yep, it's almost as good as the Continuum's attack on GPA - I mean, after all, they let in Lord Swampy! When he was on a ZI list and everything.

The parallels are pretty awe-inspiring. Then again, you were Continuum government when that happened, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

[Bob Janova]

Oh dear, someone's raised that again. I ignored it last time but this time I'm going to correct you. Lord Swampy was never accepted into GPA, and more specifically, GPA did not aid him after being told not to do so. He switched to the AA – something no alliance can prevent – and was considered for membership; when GPA found he was ZI-listed they rejected his application.

In this case, NSO knowingly and willingly took in a rogue, were directly told that aiding that rogue would be taken as an act of war and then deliberately sent that aid immediately afterwards.

The parallels don't go much further than 'someone got attacked' and trying to claim the situations are similar is good old Hegemonic revisionism.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281356917' post='2407334']
In this case, NSO knowingly and willingly took in a rogue, were directly told that aiding that rogue would be taken as an act of war and then deliberately sent that aid immediately afterwards.
[/quote]
No, this is not the case.

In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war for no reason at all.

When their member was attacked, they sent him war aid, as alliances normally do when their nations are attacked for no reason.

[Kowalski]

Have fun VE. I think NSO have previously made a point of being happy accepting and defending those who have been declared rogue by others so I guess this was bound to happen at some point.

[Logan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281360905' post='2407382']
No, this is not the case.

In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war for no reason at all.

When their member was attacked, they sent him war aid, as alliances normally do when their nations are attacked for no reason.
[/quote]

Yeah except RoK/TENE were in the process of dealing with a rogue, business as usual, when NSO decided they were cool and tough and stepped in and aided a nation that was already considered a rogue. I like how you say "no reason at all" when in fact the dude was already attacking a RoK protectorate. Nice revisionism though. And besides didn't in NSO's DoE didn't they say they would take in members at war, but would not get involved until their stuff was cleared up by themselves? Either way you are missing a pretty large part of the story there.

[mrcalkin]

All my 7k ns is pledged to your defense y'all <3

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Logan' timestamp='1281363132' post='2407411']
Yeah except RoK/TENE were in the process of dealing with a rogue, business as usual, when NSO decided they were cool and tough and stepped in and aided a nation that was already considered a rogue. [b]I like how you say "no reason at all" when in fact the dude was already attacking a RoK protectorate.[/b] Nice revisionism though. And besides didn't in NSO's DoE didn't they say they would take in members at war, but would not get involved until their stuff was cleared up by themselves? Either way you are missing a pretty large part of the story there.
[/quote]
No reason was communicated by RoK to NSO. All RoK did was say "This nation is on our target list." No discussion from then on.

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281360905' post='2407382']
No, this is not the case.

In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war for no reason at all.

When their member was attacked, they sent him war aid, as alliances normally do when their nations are attacked for no reason.
[/quote]


Really? I mean, [i]really[/i].

Did you seriously manage to type that with a straight face. NSO [i]knew[/i] he was at war with TENE when they aided him, you're incredibly ignorant if you so believe otherwise. Yeah, I know why you would like to believe your story, but the facts are so blatantly obvious.

And for reference, Haflinger: http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1

Just to make sure you don't miss it this time, you can clearly see he had active wars with TENE nations here. Ragnarok approached NSO. How much further evidence do you need to prevent you sending (to quote you) 'war aid'?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Phetion

[Haflinger]

Indeed he had active wars at the time. For some reason, Ragnarok government preferred to avoid mentioning that when discussing his target status with NSO.

There's a magic phrase I've used when dealing with rogues applying to other alliances on many an occasion: "Check his war screen." It's amazing how well this works.

[Takku]

I'm going to enjoy watching one of my favorite alliance destroying one of my least favorite alliance.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Takku

[The Magical Eggplant]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364039' post='2407442']
Indeed he had active wars at the time. For some reason, Ragnarok government preferred to avoid mentioning that when discussing his target status with NSO.

There's a magic phrase I've used when dealing with rogues applying to other alliances on many an occasion: "Check his war screen." It's amazing how well this works.
[/quote]
And it's amazing that no one seems to have done that when accepting him into NSO.

o/ Viridia
o/ RoK

Edited August 9, 2010 by The Magical Eggplant

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364039' post='2407442']
Indeed he had active wars at the time. For some reason, Ragnarok government preferred to avoid mentioning that when discussing his target status with NSO.

There's a magic phrase I've used when dealing with rogues applying to other alliances on many an occasion: "Check his war screen." It's amazing how well this works.
[/quote]

Common sense would surely lead you to 'check his war screen' as soon as somebody approaches you about him being a rogue. Nobody who has played any kind of active role in an alliance would avoid doing so particularly before sending aid. That and naturally, you generally check a nations active wars/aid screens as a quick screen of their recent history.

Even if that isn't common practice in your alliance, you know damn well that his war screen would have been noticed once somebody came knocking on the door to deal with him. It'd be plain stupid not to check it. Mind you, aiding him right after being told it would be viewed as an act of war, is pretty stupid too. Perhaps following that train of thought, I can see where you're coming from.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1281364393' post='2407456']
Common sense would surely lead you to 'check his war screen' as soon as somebody approaches you about him being a rogue.
[/quote]
Yeah, except they didn't say he was a rogue, they just said he was a target.

Read the logs.

[Logan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281363826' post='2407434']
No reason was communicated by RoK to NSO. All RoK did was say "This nation is on our target list." No discussion from then on.
[/quote]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364472' post='2407463']
Yeah, except they didn't say he was a rogue, they just said he was a target.

Read the logs.
[/quote]


Are you daft? On the firth line of the logs Hoo presented he said "[22:03] <VanHooIII[RoK]> He is a rogue against our protectorate, you guys were made aware of this ... correct?" Then it goes on to have copious amount of discussion about the topic from there. Where are you getting this no reason at all thing from? I mean it says right there that he has active wars -.-

Edit: Had to put that second response of yours in there.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Logan

[leprecon]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281360905' post='2407382']

In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war [b]for no reason at all.[/b]

When their member was attacked, they sent him war aid, as alliances normally do when their nations are attacked [b]for no reason[/b].
[/quote]


Oh come on. Really? ROK had no reason whatsoever to suggest that aiding this nation is not smart?

I could explain why you were wrong, or I could just paste some logs of ROK government clearly conveying to NSO gov that the nation they are aiding is considered an enemy of ROK.


[quote]
[22:03] <Heft> Your guys are attacking a new member of ours: http://www.cybernati...ation_ID=410982
[22:03] <Heft> I'd prefer if that didn't happen
11[22:03] <VanHooIII[RoK]> [b]He is a rogue[/b] against our protectorate, [b]you guys were made aware of this[/b] ... correct?[/quote]

[quote]
11[22:09] <VanHooIII[RoK]> If you'd like to negotiate peace for your nation, we are all ears
[22:09] <Heft> Regardless, Heggo had clearly stated that we were considering him under our protection
[22:09] <Heft> Did something change after that that I've missed?
11[22:10] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we clearly stated that we don't care
11[22:10] <VanHooIII[RoK]> [b]He is a rogue nation and will be attacked until he has been cleared[/b]
11[22:10] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Regardless of where he goes
11[22:11] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Now, he has two options ... pay for the damages he caused plus punitive damages, or continue to be attacked for his offenses
11[22:11] <VanHooIII[RoK]> It isn't personal, as far as we are concerned[/quote]

[quote]
11[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to [b]a nation we deem a rogue[/b] and are at war with as an [b]act of war[/b][/quote]

[quote]11[22:20] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Whatever the NSO decides to do from this point on, [b]they do so knowing full well where we stand[/b][/quote]

[quote]11[22:37] <VanHooIII[RoK]> It appears you guys chose
[22:38] <Heft> Compromise
[22:38] <Heft> I chose peace
11[22:39] <VanHooIII[RoK]> [b]We told you in advance how we would view it[/b], that is not exactly choosing peace[/quote]


[quote]
[22:47] <Heft> What with your vague ominous...ness...
11[22:48] <VanHooIII[RoK]> No, [b]you decided to protect and aid someone knowing full well the result[/b]
11[22:48] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We don't have anything against the NSO
11[22:48] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I told you, it didn't matter where he went, we were going to attack him per our protectorate's request
[22:48] <Heft> No, I decided not to protect him
[22:48] <Heft> We are very obviously and deliberately not currently protecting him
11[22:49] <VanHooIII[RoK]> [b]You were advised that aiding him would be considered an act of war[/b]
11[22:49] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Depsite this, you aided him anyway
11[22:49] <VanHooIII[RoK]> That was your choice[/quote]


VanHooIII said "Don't do X for the following reasons ... If you do do X we will declare war"
Then NSO decides to do it anyways.

Don't pretend you don't know why ROK is attacking NSO, it is crystal clear why ROK is attacking NSO.

Edited August 9, 2010 by leprecon

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364472' post='2407463']
Yeah, except they didn't say he was a rogue, they just said he was a target.

Read the logs.
[/quote]


[quote][22:16] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I hope you understand
[22:17] <Heft> I consider it a reasonable compromise, personally
[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation [b]we deem a rogue[/b] and are at war with as an act of war[/quote]

I read the logs. That's 20 minutes before the next confrontation, after NSO sends the aid.

What now, Haflinger?

[Haflinger]

[22:12] <Heft> The only evidence we have paints him as the defender, with TENE clearly provoking him

Sorry, my bad. It's still pretty clear that Ragnarok was looking for a CB here, and they've always been good with "Failed to obey Hoo" as one.

[Roadie]

[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1281364650' post='2407473']
Oh come on. Really? ROK had no reason whatsoever to suggest that aiding this nation is not smart?

I could explain why you were wrong, or I could just paste some logs of ROK government clearly conveying to NSO gov that the nation they are aiding is considered an enemy of ROK.





VanHooIII said "Don't do X for the following reasons ... If you do do X we will declare war"
Then NSO decides to do it anyways.

Don't pretend you don't know why ROK is attacking NSO, it is crystal clear why ROK is attacking NSO.
[/quote]


There isn't a single word of anything that could be described as evidence of that nation being a rogue provided in all of those logs you've quote. All there is are bolded assetions that he is so.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Roadie

[Phetion]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364922' post='2407485']
[22:12] <Heft> The only evidence we have paints him as the defender, with TENE clearly provoking him

Sorry, my bad. It's still pretty clear that Ragnarok was looking for a CB here, and they've always been good with "Failed to obey Hoo" as one.
[/quote]


Clutching at straws.

NSO had an extremely simple way of avoiding the CB. If Rok was looking for the CB, perhaps they would have been more ambiguous than "We will consider aiding him an act of war". NSO gave them the CB on a plate.

There's now way around that, and there's no logical defence for what NSO chose to do.