Viridian Entente Declaration of War

[veecos]

onward

[Elephant Keeper]

I could accept Ragnarok being twice NSO's size, but when allies join in that are twice [i]their [/i]size..so much less interesting.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Elephant Keeper

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Elephant Keeper' timestamp='1281457918' post='2409784']
I could accept Ragnarok being twice NSO's size, but when allies join in that are twice [i]their [/i]size..so much less interesting.
[/quote]
NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it.

[Elephant Keeper]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281458055' post='2409787']
NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it.
[/quote]
But I can't watch hypothetical wars.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281458055' post='2409787']
NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it.
[/quote]

So is it NSO or our allies you want? The same thing has been said so many times. We're standing alone on this one. It's not necessary to bring our friends into harms way for this. It's a stupid war, for a stupid reason from a warmongering leader. Let him have his kicks and life will go on.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281458736' post='2409803']
So is it NSO or our allies you want? The same thing has been said so many times. We're standing alone on this one. It's not necessary to bring our friends into harms way for this. It's a stupid war, for a stupid reason from a warmongering leader. Let him have his kicks and life will go on.
[/quote]
Do you mean "you" as in me? As in a gov of GOONS? As in an alliance that's not involved and is just watching?

All I want is some more entertainment to go with my popcorn.

[Sir Dingly Dang]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281458055' post='2409787']
NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it.
[/quote]


[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281458736' post='2409803']
So is it NSO or our allies you want? The same thing has been said so many times. We're standing alone on this one. It's not necessary to bring our friends into harms way for this. It's a stupid war, for a stupid reason from a warmongering leader. Let him have his kicks and life will go on.
[/quote]

I didn't realize GOONS was involved in this war.

I don't want NSO or its allies. It is a stupid war, but one brought on by stupid actions. How about NSO agrees that there was a rogue, RoK agrees to ZI the rogue, and both sides agree to a cease fire and diplomatically discuss how to best handle these incidents in the future before they reach this stage. You know, like coming to the "protector" with proof of rogue actions from the outset, and the "protector" maybe not sending aid until the claims are researched and verified?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sir Dingly Dang' timestamp='1281462813' post='2409924']
I didn't realize GOONS was involved in this war.

I don't want NSO or its allies. It is a stupid war, but one brought on by stupid actions. How about NSO agrees that there was a rogue, RoK agrees to ZI the rogue, and both sides agree to a cease fire and diplomatically discuss how to best handle these incidents in the future before they reach this stage. You know, like coming to the "protector" with proof of rogue actions from the outset, and the "protector" maybe not sending aid until the claims are researched and verified?
[/quote]

We tried to have them verified. There was admittance that they don't have solid proof of him being a rogue. Hoo instead chose to extend his fist in the fashion of old. Why should we turn around and call him a rogue?


[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img]


Does that paint the picture any clearer? Should we assume Hoo's word as gospel?

[kriekfreak]

Yes, reverend Hoo knows best.

[leprecon]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281463323' post='2409938']
We tried to have them verified. There was admittance that they don't have solid proof of him being a rogue. Hoo instead chose to extend his fist in the fashion of old. Why should we turn around and call him a rogue?


[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img]


Does that paint the picture any clearer? Should we assume Hoo's word as gospel?
[/quote]

At this very moment the wars are still active. ([url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1"]link[/url])
The guy has been at war with TENE continuously and he declared the first war.

What part of "changed his AA to none, declared a war on a RoK affiliated nation, declared another war, joined NSO and continued his war all the while NSO is ok with the wars he is fighting" don't you get.

If we can't call a person that sits on none and declares wars on people in alliances a rogue then what is a rogue?

Edited August 10, 2010 by leprecon

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1281466780' post='2409994']
If we can't call a person that sits on none and declares wars on people in alliances a rogue then what is a rogue?
[/quote]

Different people consider them different things, I've always thought of it as either somebody who's gone crazy and starts attacking people without cause and against directions or those who just attack for absolutely no reason. Sedrick had just as much reason if not more to attack TENE nations then RoK did to attack NSO.

[Xiphosis]

[quote]I've always thought of it as either somebody who's gone crazy and starts attacking people without cause and against directions or those who just attack for absolutely no reason.[/quote]

If it makes you feel better, Sedrick was bragging about having "3 other rogues ready" if NSO hadn't come along. I'd call him one pretty safely.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281458055' post='2409787']
NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it.
[/quote]
We're not worried though.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Sulmar' timestamp='1281470251' post='2410066']
We're not worried though.
[/quote]
In that case people should probably stop complaining that you're outnumbered.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281470518' post='2410070']
In that case people should probably stop complaining that you're outnumbered.
[/quote]
Fool, you always have to complain about something. Learn to CN.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281470518' post='2410070']
In that case people should probably stop complaining that you're outnumbered.
[/quote]

Who's complaining? No Sith has complained about the odds.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281472067' post='2410110']
Who's complaining? No Sith has complained about the odds.
[/quote]
Some of your friends and supporters, like everyone that said RoK "had" to bring allies into it, or that it's boring because it's 5 against 1, or all the other funny things I've heard people say in the last couple days.

[Sir Dingly Dang]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281463323' post='2409938']
We tried to have them verified. There was admittance that they don't have solid proof of him being a rogue. Hoo instead chose to extend his fist in the fashion of old. Why should we turn around and call him a rogue?

Does that paint the picture any clearer? Should we assume Hoo's word as gospel?
[/quote]

I'm not sure what that picture shows - as soon as one party deletes the aid, it disappears, right? My understanding is that part of the problem is that Sedrick took aid and didn't reimburse (members of) the alliance. Then he spied on a TENE member (not exposed, so my guess is that in threatening war against adzzz, he probably brought it up, and hopefully TENE has logs of the conversation if it was PM or IRC - if they have this, they should share it). He threatened war against adzzz, who then spied on him (again, the threat should be provable, and I also wonder if anyone has gotten any word from Sedrick himself?). He then attacked several TENE members.

Now, to me, even without logs of Sedrick spying on TENE, and even without proof of sedrick taking money and running to MHA (and since they rejected him, I'm wondering what was verified there), as soon as he attacked TENE, he was a rogue. He wasn't under MHA, and in fact, at least one war against TENE was declared while under "none". RoK had an obligation to attack him on behalf of their protectorate when asked.

I have no problem with NSO accepting Sedrick. And I have no problem with RoK attacking Sedrick. If NSO chooses to protect Sedrick even though he had attacked a RoK protectorate, that's their right. If RoK attacks Sedrick for attacking their protectorate, that's their right. Both sides did what was right under their charter/viewpoint/"ethics", and both sides committed an act of war under the viewpoint of the other. NSO didn't retaliate for RoK's act (attacking an NSO member without sufficient proof of roguery - and I'm just trying to see if from NSO's viewpoint) as they figured it would be handled diplomatically; RoK [b]did[/b] retaliate for NSO's act (aiding a nation they felt was a rogue) as was their choice.

Was NSO wrong in aiding Sedrick? Not in my eyes, that's their choice. Were they expressly told that such aid would be considered an act of war. Yes. Was the aid probably given in an act of spite of being told "don't do it?" Most likely, at least that's what it looks like. Does that make a darn bit of difference? Not to me. IMHO, aid being sent immediately after being told it would lead to war was basically asking for what happened next, as stupid as the ultimatum may have been in Heft's eyes. Diplomacy may have been better served by not [i]immediately[/i] aiding Sedrick, especially when it was made clear that Hoo was fully considering Sedrick a rogue nation, but that's not my call.

Regardless, Sedrick attacked TENE. Even on the off chance that it was TENE's fault somehow, which I personally don't believe, but even so, he was unaligned and attacked an alliance with a protectorate. I would expect that alliance and/or its protectorate to attack that nation regardless of what actions that rogue took afterwards. Maybe that's not NSO's way of doign things, and that's fine. But both alliances are fully within their rights to fight this stupid war.

Everything else is just NSO's "side" (not NSO) complaining about a curbstomp, and RoK's "side" trying to goad the conspiracy theorists. Which is why I still think it should be as simple as NSO agreeing that Sedrick had baggage to clear up before he should have been protected (if I'm understanding NSO's policies correctly), RoK agreeing that the speed of all these events occurring probably didn't help, and [quote name='Sir Dingly Dang'] both sides agree to a cease fire and diplomatically discuss how to best handle these incidents in the future before they reach this stage. You know, like coming to the "protector" with proof of rogue actions from the outset, and the "protector" maybe not sending aid until the claims are researched and verified?[/quote]. I still think that if alliance A goes to alliance B to complain about a rogue, that it is the job of alliance A to be ready with a preponderance of evidence (not necessarily beyond a reasonable doubt), not the job of alliance B to research everything themselves, although it certainly may be wise to make inquiries even if presented with limited evidence, even if it's normally the job of the accuser to present evidence...

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sir Dingly Dang' timestamp='1281474804' post='2410161']
Now, to me, even without logs of Sedrick spying on TENE, and even without proof of sedrick taking money and running to MHA (and since they rejected him, I'm wondering what was verified there), [b]as soon as he attacked TENE, he was a rogue.[/b] He wasn't under MHA, and in fact, at least one war against TENE was declared while under "none". RoK had an obligation to attack him on behalf of their protectorate when asked.[/quote]

Not if he's defending himself, it doesn't matter what his AA was. He's not a rogue for retaliating/defending.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Rayvon

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281475386' post='2410170']
Not if he's defending himself, it doesn't matter what his AA was. He's not a rogue for retaliating/defending.
[/quote]
you can't defend yourselve by attacking. How is that supposed to work exactly? He might be attacking for a good reason, but the fact remains that he choose to enter a war with Tene/Rok. NSO had no beef in that fight which started prior to him trying to join you. The reason we are at war, is that you involved yourselve in a conflict where you had no buisness being (completly against your policy as a sidenote).

Do you even know what kind of person you are defending (or trying to at least)? I'd highly recommend you spend a minute or two talking to him on IRC and you'll notice very soon why he is considered a rogue by Rok.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Tulafaras' timestamp='1281480238' post='2410298']
Do you even know what kind of person you are defending (or trying to at least)? I'd highly recommend you spend a minute or two talking to him on IRC and you'll notice very soon why he is considered a rogue by Rok.
[/quote]

The logs from the other day when he was in NSO's channel make me feel pity stats are dying over this guy. Seriously.

[Logan]

[quote name='Elephant Keeper' timestamp='1281457918' post='2409784']
I could accept Ragnarok being twice NSO's size, but when allies join in that are twice [i]their [/i]size..so much less interesting.
[/quote]

Fortunately this isn't for your entertainment, am I right?

[Goldie]

We are here for Logan's entertainment, not yours.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Tulafaras' timestamp='1281480238' post='2410298']
you can't defend yourselve by attacking.
[/quote]
Good to know that you think this.

Obviously you've never been in an alliance that came under attack by another alliance and called up an MDP partner to [i]defend[/i] you by [i]attacking[/i] that alliance.

Good god.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1281481587' post='2410333']
The logs from the other day when he was in NSO's channel make me feel pity stats are dying over this guy. Seriously.
[/quote]

Really? I think it makes it all the more worthwhile.