Ramirus: Scourge of the Grämlins

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='30 June 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1277960025' post='2356275']
Schatt, looks like someone actually DID read at least "The Prince" (unless this interpretation is in a Wiki article somewhere...that's where most of you get your information from).

Canuck, good start...PM me if you'd like a summer reading list to continue your studies.
[/quote]
I find it funny that you're focusing on errata and completely ignoring the fact that you contradict yourself several times outside of discussions of Machiavelli's work.

Tunnel vision isn't really a rebuttal, Ramirus. It's just spinning in the vain hope of deflecting attention from the real issue.

And you [i]still[/i] have not established how your two contradictory desires for how you want PB politics to work can be reconciled. Nor, for that matter, your profound ignorance of how it has actually worked over the course of it's history.

Or at least how you've dismissed it thus far as "Four Years of rabble" or some such. You can't really nullify the truth by calling the messenger a liar, you know. They tend to have evidence to back it up.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Chron

[Il Impero Romano]

Ramirus, I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that literally everything you said is !@#$%^&*. You don't care about any moral aspect, you weren't thinking about the pros and cons of Machiavellian thought or whatever the hell else you people are talking about, and you weren't trying to institute some new sort of visionary value.

Cutting to the chase in the most simple manner possible, the real reason you started down this path is because you feel IRON (as well as DAWN by proxy) is a threat and wanted to eliminate that threat. There is nothing wrong with that conceptually, but what is wrong with it is how you went about doing so. Anything else you say as justification was made up as an afterthought.

Simply put, you thought you could pull something off that your alliance just plain couldn't, and I think the latter part is very clear considering the stats at hand.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Ramirus Maximus]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='30 June 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1277961186' post='2356304']Why did you consult virtually no alliances on the losing side about your proposal to amend the surrender terms and, instead, wasted days (weeks?) consulting with the winning side?[/quote]

We're getting around to talking to the losers. If it's the order you're curious about, Matt answered for me:

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='30 June 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1277962256' post='2356325']Because that's how Ramirus works. He probably started working with those on his "side" that he felt closest with, once he gained their support he slowly worked on others. Now he'll start putting out feelers to people tied to but not actually part of the alliances on our "side" that he wishes to see sign. He'll hope to convince them slowly, in private query of course promising the whole world is behind his wishes (or at least the weight of certain large alliances). He'll continue pedaling his !@#$%^&* to anyone that will listen until finally he hopes to convince TOP then IRON/DAWN. Feel free to see if this is how things play out. I may be completely wrong, then again maybe not.[/quote]

That's pretty much it, yeah. The Grämlins have audaciously engaged in perhaps the first case EVER of talking to our friends before talking to our enemies. No one has EVER done such a thing before. We're such visionaries!

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='01 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1277970570' post='2356428']
That's pretty much it, yeah. The Grämlins have audaciously engaged in perhaps the first case EVER of talking to our friends before talking to our enemies. No one has EVER done such a thing before. We're such visionaries!
[/quote]
The funny thing is, given your recent trend of decisions, it's difficult to tell whether or not you're being sarcastic when you say that.

If you are then I totally apologize for missing the joke. Haha-hoohoo-heehee.

Moving on, I believe its interesting to note that discussing the terms of making peace with the individuals you are at war with, is something you should discuss with the party who is presently kicking your collective teeth in, and likely shall continue to in the near future. Especially considering how absurd on it's face your proposal is, as is your (at best) misinformed impression of unanimous approval amongst the ESA signatories.

That being said, I await clarification of the inconsistencies cited in the Interview.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Chron

[EgoFreaky]

[quote]In general, I believe that Foreign Affairs should be about more than boob threads in embassies. [/quote]

You're absolutely correct, dammit people take a look at Fark and throw in some beer while you're at it!! Fark

[quote]
I'm not familiar with SF's internal policies, but I believe RnR declared some ghosts and others simply left. [b]We didn't confront them about it[/b], no. I heard Jim kicked some IRON $@! though.[/quote]

Why didn't you? God knows you had more then enough opportunities during our queries. I guess the logical way to go was trying to get our allies convinced we where a big threat to them


[quote]<@EgoFreaky[RnR|Tri]> I mis talking to ramirus
<@EgoFreaky[RnR|Tri]> I wonder if he still has that high horse he used to ride or if it resigned gre too XD[/quote]


[quote](as opposed to the "no u" wars that suffice for most Digiterran mouthbreathers).[/quote]
[quote]I realize that most alliance governments are children with underdeveloped minds, meager worldviews, very little actual experience in politics, trade, high-level business, or international relations.[/quote]
[quote]if only people would grow up and bit and try it.[/quote]
[quote]since the smooth-brained Digiterran community[/quote]
[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='01 July 2010 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1277960025' post='2356275']
(unless this interpretation is in a Wiki article somewhere...that's where most of you get your information from).[/quote]

Thanks for answering that question for me

Edited July 1, 2010 by EgoFreaky

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='01 July 2010 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1277970570' post='2356428']
We're getting around to talking to the losers. If it's the order you're curious about, Matt answered for me:
[/quote]

so i take it the last alliance you are going to talk to about the amendment is Grämlins? They happen to be the biggest loser of this war now.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='01 July 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1277962256' post='2356325']
Because that's how Ramirus works. He probably started working with those on his "side" that he felt closest with, once he gained their support he slowly worked on others. Now he'll start putting out feelers to people tied to but not actually part of the alliances on our "side" that he wishes to see sign. He'll hope to convince them slowly, in private query of course promising the whole world is behind his wishes (or at least the weight of certain large alliances). He'll continue pedaling his !@#$%^&* to anyone that will listen until finally he hopes to convince TOP then IRON/DAWN. Feel free to see if this is how things play out. I may be completely wrong, then again maybe not.
[/quote]

Have to agree with AvT on this one. Of course such a diplomatic tact requires discrete conversations and the willingness of those you chose to speak with not to simply point an laugh or worse proceed to tell everyone else what you are up to and poison the well.

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='01 July 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1277964933' post='2356373']
Its still blindingly stupid, considering he still lacks the one thing that stopped his first idiot plan from working.

Cooperation of the people he can't beat into submission.
[/quote]

He would actually do much of anything he isn't already doing. If he manages to convince C&G and in particular MHA to reopen the treaty, they would provide the required leverage.

Note that requires he be able to manipulate his own allies, or former allies, and that they would be gullible enough to fall for it or still bare that much grudge against IRON.

I don't see a point in going back there, tbh. It would be just plain silly.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='01 July 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1277961186' post='2356304']
It comes to reason that your former coalition partners wouldn't oppose an additional term meant to further humiliate us. What you needed for this term to ever see the day was exactly what you never attempted to get: our approval.
[/quote]
Or, in other words...

The wish to acquire is in truth very natural and common, and men always do so when they can, and for this they will be praised not blamed; but when they cannot do so, yet wish to do so by any means, then there is folly and blame.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Chron' date='01 July 2010 - 03:56 AM' timestamp='1277970982' post='2356432']
The funny thing is, given your recent trend of decisions, it's difficult to tell whether or not you're being sarcastic when you say that.
[/quote]
That was literally my first thought upon reading his post. "Is he serious? That must be sarcasm... maybe."

edit: Oh, also, to Ramirus, just because nobody has ever invited you to a backroom doesn't mean they don't exist. If you think most significant diplomacy consists of the banter in embassies with everyone reacting more or less randomly when something significant happens (apparently for no reason) then you are an idiot.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Delta1212

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='30 June 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1277959192' post='2356260']
I'm familiar. You are also correct in your analysis of The Prince for the most part. However, one should not downplay Machiavelli's belief that while one should avoid cruelty, there is a time and a place to be ruthless: "a prince may be perceived to be merciful, faithful, humane, frank, and religious, but he must only seem to have these qualities".

Put in the context of Planet Bob, Ramirus fails Machiavelli's tests in a number of ways. I'll not renumerate them here for a variety of reasons. Suffice to say that I would not have been above relieving him of his command had I been in Gramlins, using whatever IC means was necessary to accomplish the task. Fortunately, I already have a better home.
[/quote]


I agree completely on both counts. One of the great historical tragedies of CN is that the Ramirus was able to take over the Gramlins and twist them into his own image.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='30 June 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1277960025' post='2356275']
Schatt, looks like someone actually DID read at least "The Prince" (unless this interpretation is in a Wiki article somewhere...that's where most of you get your information from).

Canuck, good start...PM me if you'd like a summer reading list to continue your studies.
[/quote]


A wise Zombie has already made the point in that this community has a large number of highly educated people. I know it is against your nature but you should heed that advice.

Edited July 1, 2010 by crazy canuck

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='30 June 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1277961186' post='2356304']
You do know that some of us are actually adults with a little more knowledge than the average college kid you seem to mistake us for?

Since you did not answer my initial question, I have another. Why did you consult virtually no alliances on the losing side about your proposal to amend the surrender terms and, instead, wasted days (weeks?) consulting with the winning side?

It comes to reason that your former coalition partners wouldn't oppose an additional term meant to further humiliate us. What you needed for this term to ever see the day was exactly what you never attempted to get: our approval.
[/quote]


I know, from our discussions, that you personally do not feel that you have done anything wrong.

However, I do not believe the general consensus to be the same.
In light of that, it is *not* humiliating to admit when you've done something wrong. It should be, in fact, empowering and honorable.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='01 July 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1277997130' post='2356633']
I know, from our discussions, that you personally do not feel that you have done anything wrong.

However, I do not believe the general consensus to be the same.
In light of that, it is *not* humiliating to admit when you've done something wrong. It should be, in fact, empowering and honorable.
[/quote]

An admirable job of attempting to change the subject but I dont think you will get away with it.

Try to stay on topic and explain why it is that days after Ram actally enters the war there is suddenly talk of ending the war by amending a peace agreement that has already been agreed to by the relevant parties. Also, please explain to me how it is that in your world the losing side (surely you must recognize that you must make peace or be destroyed) can dicatate peace terms. Further, explain to me how a once rational alliance does not simply accept the very generous offer of a white peace offered to you by IRON?

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='01 July 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1277997589' post='2356645']
An admirable job of attempting to change the subject but I dont think you will get away with it.

Try to stay on topic and [u][b]explain why it is that days after Ram actally enters the war there is suddenly talk of ending the war by amending a peace agreement[/b][/u] that has already been agreed to by the relevant parties.
[/quote]

Ya, and don't forget the statistics:

Ramirus Maximus started at: 83,432 NS
He is now at: 40,060 NS
There is 1 day left of Matt Miller's war. He is currently down 43,372 NS.

So, in 1 round he has lost 43,372 and probably will make it to ~48k NS lost by the end of Matt's war at update.

Oh, and don't we all love pictures
[IMG]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/gramminatedpaul/RamsChart.png[/IMG]

Does this explain why he wants peace? He trys to keep IRON at war and claims he is winning against IRON, yet it seems that GRE is taking the pounding instead..

Edited July 1, 2010 by Dom Zak

[Ketther]

I thought people were talking about being right not about losing stats. Try to attack his reasons. Those pictures are not helping anyone.

People burned before Ramirus. Some of them did for a just cause.

Kett

[andrew734]

[quote name='Ketther' date='01 July 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1278003847' post='2356784']
I thought people were talking about being right not about losing stats. Try to attack his reasons. Those pictures are not helping anyone.

People burned before Ramirus. Some of them did for a just cause.

Kett
[/quote]

If his position is so right why does he change his path after well over a month of war.

It just so happens that he gets destroyed this week.

How right it is to protect your pixels.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote]I know, from our discussions, that you personally do not feel that you have done anything wrong.[/quote]
My own opinion has nothing to do with TOP's surrender terms or treaties. You should know that, in TOP, the Heptagon, not the Council, approves and ratifies terms and treaties.

It has also nothing to do with what I pointed out.

[quote]That's pretty much it, yeah. The Grämlins have audaciously engaged in perhaps the first case EVER of talking to our friends before talking to our enemies. No one has EVER done such a thing before. We're such visionaries! [/quote]
Considering that what you are asking will only affect us and not your "friends", you probably should have notified them quickly and talked to us directly.

Also, I believe you are intelligent enough to understand that we have no reason to accept your amendment, correct? There is no pressure on us and you are offering nothing. I'm not exactly sure why you are proposing this. To save face? At this point, you probably should just accept IRON's merciful offer of white peace and try to rebuild your alliance, since you have lost over 66% of your membership, along with your entire political capital, etc.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='Ketther' date='01 July 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1278003847' post='2356784']
I thought people were talking about being right not about losing stats. Try to attack his reasons. Those pictures are not helping anyone.

People burned before Ramirus. Some of them did for a just cause.

Kett
[/quote]

It is the fact that after 1 week of war and as soon as he is at war, he wants to end the conflict...

Egotistical and Selfish?

[zzzptm]

He's in his bunker, and he'll burn there.

[shahenshah]

1. Are you backing off from the unconditional surrender? If yes, what made you change your mind?
2. Why did Gre not forward what it proposes now for ESA during a long deliberation period? What is the reason for doing it now?
3. Seeing so far you have achieved nothing in your exercise, have you considered resigning? If you think otherwise, what have you achieved?

Edited July 1, 2010 by shahenshah

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='01 July 2010 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1277997589' post='2356645']
An admirable job of attempting to change the subject but I dont think you will get away with it.

Try to stay on topic and explain why it is that days after Ram actally enters the war there is suddenly talk of ending the war by amending a peace agreement that has already been agreed to by the relevant parties. Also, please explain to me how it is that in your world the losing side (surely you must recognize that you must make peace or be destroyed) can dicatate peace terms. Further, explain to me how a once rational alliance does not simply accept the very generous offer of a white peace offered to you by IRON?
[/quote]

I first suggested the idea to amend the ESA months ago in response to a suggestion by Umar. This interview was actually taken over a month ago as well.
Talks to amend the ESA began before Ram was attacked.

Events do not start and stop based upon when you first hear about them.

[franciscus]

@MPK: 2 days before him being attacked. Try not to twist facts when you present them. IRON govt. was approached by a middle-man with RAM's new proposal 2 days before Matt Miller was able to exit PM and engage.

@Ketther: Ramirus' reasons are purely [i]OOC ([/i][i]we're all kids and he's the old, very intelligent, very educated man coming to our game to teach us how to play it for his likings - see the Machiavellian approach or RL children with underdeveloped minds, meager worldviews, very little actual experience in politics, trade, high-level business, or international relations references). Not many of us are gonna sink so low as to respond to that.[/i]

[Charles the Great]

actually no one cares about the amendment but lolgre and the only way it would go thru is if CnG and SF said they would go back to war if it didnt. So I dont even see why we are debating this.

Take white peace or go to ZI "."

and would a gramlin please attack me already.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Charles the Great' date='01 July 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1278013022' post='2356941']
actually no one cares about the amendment but lolgre and the only way it would go thru is if CnG and SF said they would go back to war if it didnt. So I dont even see why we are debating this.

Take white peace or go to ZI "."

and would a gramlin please attack me already.
[/quote]
I believe most of the signatories have pretty much said they are fine with the amendment if Gre and IRON are fine with it.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='flak attack' date='01 July 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1278013530' post='2356951']
I believe most of the signatories have pretty much said they are fine with the amendment if Gre and IRON are fine with it.
[/quote]


Really? Does CnG really want to open up negotiations on the peace agreement and if so why?

@ matthew, so you are saying you have been thinking about this for a month but you are only now suggesting it. Do you really think that is helping your argument that this has nothing to do with Ram taking damage rather then just watching the rest of his alliance burn.