Ramirus: Scourge of the Grämlins

[Alterego]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='06 July 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1278380751' post='2360672']
I have no desire/information to share with you regarding who has/hasn't agreed to what. Sorry.




I haven't seen much proof that Ram has lied about our friends. All issues thus far (excepting SW's) have been well enough explained. That said, I'll be quite upset should I find that Ram deliberately lied about our friends; though I don't believe that to be the case. Don't latch onto one side of the story without knowing all the facts just because you wish it to be true. (cue everybody telling me I'm calling the kettle black )[/quote]

You have chosen A & E which funnily enough is where your alliance belongs.

[quote name='Alterego' date='05 July 2010 - 07:11 AM' timestamp='1278310293' post='2360076']
Whats next for Gramlins:

[b]A.[/b] Claim it was a misunderstanding or communication error
[b]E.[/b] Ignore this latest revelation carry on regardless

[/quote]


You really expect people to believe that only one person in Gramlins (Ram) has any info about this whole war and the rest of you just followed like lemmings. That makes you a liar or a lemming, which is it?

[StevieG]

[quote name='Alterego' date='06 July 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1278395066' post='2360890']
You have chosen A & E which funnily enough is where your alliance belongs.




You really expect people to believe that only one person in Gramlins (Ram) has any info about this whole war and the rest of you just followed like lemmings. That makes you a liar or a lemming, which is it?
[/quote]

A little lying lemming?

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='06 July 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1278393636' post='2360863']
Claiming bragging rights: I just ZI'd Ramirus. It's about damn time.
[/quote]
Don't forget we little guys that contributed a bit too.

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='06 July 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1278420638' post='2361055']
Don't forget we little guys that contributed a bit too.
[/quote]

Heck ya, I'm even chatting with Vondroz while I nuke him and send some DA's his way.

[SirWilliam]

I could have, and probably should have, been a bit clearer here. It wasn't my intent to state or imply that Ramirus lied about MK (officially) supporting his proposed amendment. He may very well have spoken with someone else in MK government. I, however, never signed off on anything of the sort, informally or otherwise, and don't entirely have much interest in doing so (seeing as how, for the reason I previously mentioned, I don't see much of a point).

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='06 July 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1278420638' post='2361055']
Don't forget we little guys that contributed a bit too.
[/quote]
Couldn't have ZI'd him if you didn't take off 7k infra by yourself first.

[amad123]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 July 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1278380751' post='2360672']
[quote name='Matt Miller' date='05 July 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1278344720' post='2360282']
Well I would say your current course of action is an equally pointless endeavor. MPK, do you have any additional information about Ramirus' claim that all of CnG has given their official support to the proposed ESA amendment?
[/quote]
I have no desire/information to share with you regarding who has/hasn't agreed to what. [/quote]
This is like any other Gramlin position. One has to apply their interpretation of "agreed to". A passing "It seems okay" in an IRC conversation by some minor alliance member could be taken for approval. However, when a Gramlin Government member makes a statement it doesn't count unless they have voted on it. So by that interpretation I suspect no alliance has approved of the amendment.

I could fully support your amendment and agree with everything it says, I still wouldn't support letting you attach it to the ESA. My objective is to really annoy you and your government to the point that you won't accept white peace, since I can't convince them to pull it from the table. So far you are holding firm and I am greatly pleased.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 July 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1278380751' post='2360672']
It is not wrong to demand IRON surrender unconditionally for their actions. It is not wrong to *propose* an amendment as an alternative to a method our friends find unpalatable. I have no interest in accepting white peace from IRON. This issue is dominantly about their deliberate and malicious action instigating the war. [/quote]
Again I find myself agreeing with MPK to a point. This is a game of political savy and when that fails war. If war wasn't intended to be part of the game then we wouldn't have a military available. So Gramlins is upset that IRON entered a war that NpO started. As I recall pretty much every alliance was itching for a war over Christmas, the very fact that so many alliances countered IRON on the same night war was declared or within 24hrs clearly points out that every alliance was prepared for war and everyone wanted a war, IRON was gracious enough to provide one. Not only that they provided one that favoured CnG and friends. Yet you find that offensive. lol

No it is not wrong to want IRON to surrender unconditionally, you just aren't going to achieve it. You can propose whatever amendment you like, we enjoy a good laugh as much as the next alliance. Yes, IRON & DAWN were deliberate in responding to NpO's call for help in their war. Just as deliberate as Gramlins was in countering IRON. You don't want white peace, perfect, we will soon meet on the battlefield where we can exchange nukes. You play the game to do the right thing and show your honour. I play for war, any bets on who is enjoying this more?



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 July 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1278380751' post='2360672']
They are in no position to offer white peace. [/quote]
Again clearly you don't understand how alliances interact. IRON can offer it, hopefully you keep rejecting it.


.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='06 July 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1278426154' post='2361081']
I could have, and probably should have, been a bit clearer here. It wasn't my intent to state or imply that Ramirus lied about MK (officially) supporting his proposed amendment. He may very well have spoken with someone else in MK government. I, however, never signed off on anything of the sort, informally or otherwise, and don't entirely have much interest in doing so (seeing as how, for the reason I previously mentioned, I don't see much of a point).
[/quote]

Well seeing as you also said you are the only one currently around to officially support such a thing, I believe the peanut galleries math on this one this correct Mr. William.

Perhaps it was not a lie Ramirus was making, but rather a willful misrepresentation (i.e. [b]an[/b] official supporting =/= official support).

Edited July 6, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='06 July 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1278426154' post='2361081']
I could have, and probably should have, been a bit clearer here. It wasn't my intent to state or imply that Ramirus lied about MK (officially) supporting his proposed amendment. He may very well have spoken with someone else in MK government. I, however, never signed off on anything of the sort, informally or otherwise, and don't entirely have much interest in doing so (seeing as how, for the reason I previously mentioned, I don't see much of a point).
[/quote]


Thank you for the clarification. It seems that Ram et al. jumped the gun when they said that everyone was supporting an amendment.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='amad123' date='06 July 2010 - 08:23 AM' timestamp='1278429771' post='2361118']
No it is not wrong to want IRON to surrender unconditionally, you just aren't going to achieve it. You can propose whatever amendment you like, we enjoy a good laugh as much as the next alliance. Yes, IRON & DAWN were deliberate in responding to NpO's call for help in their war. Just as deliberate as Gramlins was in countering IRON. You don't want white peace, perfect, we will soon meet on the battlefield where we can exchange nukes.[/quote]


That is really the point. Matthew's plea that there was nothing "wrong" with demanding an unconditional surrender assumes that there is some written code setting out what and what is not acceptable. There is no such thing but what we do have is a situation where people need to act reasonably. That is what they did not do and that is why they are wrong. Matthew - do you need proof of just how wrong you were? Compare your membership and NS from say a year ago and now.

As I have said a number of times, at the end of the day, every alliance can be said to be democratic because people are not stupid (particularly in this community) they will vote with their feet and leave or just delete if they see that their alliance leadership is making decision with which they disagree. That is the true measure of the Gre failure and why you are so fundatmentally and irretrievably wrong.

Edited July 6, 2010 by crazy canuck

[nitropenta]

[quote name='Chron' date='30 June 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1277852537' post='2354477']
Make up your mind, dammit!

That being said, this was a highly informative article, and I am glad to have read it. Good job as always,[i] Herr Schatt.[/i]
[/quote]


[quote name='Ardus' date='30 June 2010 - 01:25 AM' timestamp='1277853930' post='2354496']
I'm amused by your dual endorsement of idealistic foreign policy and Machiavellian politics.
[/quote]


[quote name='Vladimir' date='30 June 2010 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1277858203' post='2354581']
I sit here in utter and desperate confusion. The first half of the interview is a hectic assault on the 'realpolitik' of the Old Gramlins, then we come to a brief interlude where the dull-eyed plebs of Planet Bob are castigated for not pursuing "Machiavellian diplomacy," and then we are immediately launched into an attack on alliances who 'make the right realpolitik decisions' which 'can't be condoned from a moral point of view'. I fear that there may be some consistency missing from this train of thought.
[/quote]


[quote name='Chron' date='30 June 2010 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1277858246' post='2354583']
I completely understand.

Sending mixed signals is something Im very sure that you, personally speaking, are sympathetic to.

By the way, Ramirus, how [i]can[/i] you endorse a Machiavellian approach to politics while also insisting that everyone should abide by stuff like honor, solid CBs, and refrain from opportunism?

Im actually very interested in hearing how those blatantly contradictory viewpoints are reconciled.
[/quote]

I don't really understand why people are complaining about this. While the execution wasn't great, it makes perfect sense to endorse a Machiavellian approach one the one side, and insisting that others stick to ideals / the honour code ... just think about it. Of course everything goes out of the window if you actually speak it out aloud ...

[Alterego]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='06 July 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1278433000' post='2361166']
Thank you for the clarification. It seems that Ram et al. jumped the gun when they said that everyone was supporting an amendment.
[/quote]

It wasnt as innocent as you make out. Jumping the gun would be announcing it early not making a statement that the people mentioned never even heard of. He was absolutely clear that all the governments were 100% behind this. It was clearly an attempt to deceive people. Ram isnt a noob alliance leader and he seems to consider anything fair game including misrepresenting their "friends" and speaking for other governments without their approval or knowledge. If only there was a treaty to drop after this betrayal of C&Gs trust.

[quote]We are seeking an amendment to make the ESA work as a statement of principle, rather than merely a bill-of-sale. [b]So far, all of C&G as well as MHA, FOK, STA, NpO, Umbrella, BACoN, DF, IAA, Nemesis, Ronin, Sparta, and tR [color="#FF0000"]have all given their official support of our amendment[/color].[/b] That's almost everyone who originally signed the ESA. The rest are either deliberating, or haven't been asked yet. [b]I'd say that's a fair indicator of world opinion[/b].[/quote]

Edited July 6, 2010 by Alterego

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='Alterego' date='06 July 2010 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1278437361' post='2361225']
It wasnt as innocent as you make out. Jumping the gun would be announcing it early not making a statement that the people mentioned never even heard of. He was absolutely clear that all the governments were 100% behind this. It was clearly an attempt to deceive people. Ram isnt a noob alliance leader and he seems to consider anything fair game including misrepresenting their "friends" and speaking for other governments without their approval or knowledge. If only there was a treaty to drop after this betrayal of C&Gs trust.
[/quote]


I was being subtle

I think everyone here knows what Ram was up to. But it isnt for me to tell MK whether they should be upset with Ram for being disengenius with them. That is something they will work out for themselves.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='06 July 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1278430245' post='2361126']
Well seeing as you also said you are the only one currently around to officially support such a thing, I believe the peanut galleries math on this one this correct Mr. William.

Perhaps it was not a lie Ramirus was making, but rather a willful misrepresentation (i.e. [b]an[/b] official supporting =/= official support).
[/quote]
Oh, then by Ramirus' own definition he lied then.

[quote name='Ramirus Maximus' date='30 June 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1277914766' post='2355249']
There's a word for intentionally misrepresenting. It's "lying".
[/quote]
Either way, its still quite humorous how ultimately non-existent the support he claimed in the original interview is.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Chron' date='07 July 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1278460872' post='2361764']
Oh, then by Ramirus' own definition he lied then.


Either way, its still quite humorous how ultimately non-existent the support he claimed in the original interview is.
[/quote]

Bingo, I was hoping someone would catch that :x

Edited July 7, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Alterego]

Is Ram even fighting back? Looking at troop levels, infra and nukes it seems like he just gave up the fight a couple of days ago.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Alterego' date='07 July 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1278542116' post='2362810']
Is Ram even fighting back? Looking at troop levels, infra and nukes it seems like he just gave up the fight a couple of days ago.
[/quote]
Yep, pretty much.

Kinda sad, he can't even stand for his own ego.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='07 July 2010 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1278542707' post='2362821']
Yep, pretty much.

Kinda sad, he can't even stand for his own ego.
[/quote]

I don't think a man can stand when his ego weighs so heavily on his back.

[Lezrahi]

[quote name='Cortath' date='07 July 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1278549847' post='2362942']
I don't think a man can stand when his ego weighs so heavily on his back.
[/quote]

[i]Lezrahi raised his eyebrow, blinked several times, cleared his throat, turned, and walked away.[/i]

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Cortath' date='08 July 2010 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1278549847' post='2362942']
I don't think a man can stand when his ego weighs so heavily on his back.
[/quote]

and the guilt of single handedly destroying his own alliance in pixel and soul. Tho, Gre started dying since he took over, we can credit him for speeding up the process.

Edited July 8, 2010 by shahenshah

[Letum]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='08 July 2010 - 08:45 AM' timestamp='1278575085' post='2363270']
and the guilt of single handedly destroying his own alliance in pixel and soul. Tho, Gre started dying since he took over, we can credit him for speeding up the process.
[/quote]

To feel guilty, you need to care.

[AndrewHG]

[quote name='Letum' date='08 July 2010 - 08:47 AM' timestamp='1278575257' post='2363271']
To feel guilty, you need to care.
[/quote]

Thing is I care.
I don't like seeing any alliance dissolving itself to ZI.
Gre, ditch the fundamentalist. Go to a table- any table and call it a day. Take the offer and move on.

[shilo]

[quote name='AndrewHG' date='08 July 2010 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1278578420' post='2363285']
Thing is I care.
I don't like seeing any alliance dissolving itself to ZI.
Gre, ditch the fundamentalist. Go to a table- any table and call it a day. Take the offer and move on.
[/quote]
Well, those of us who have to deal with a bunch of delusional nutjobs now for many months in a row can tell you that your attempts to shout reason at them will fail. The offer of white peace has been on the table way to long, it's still on, and considering they are only destroying themselves, but still demand terms from us, everyone should realize that asking them to act like a sane and rational party is at best a very bad attempt at humor.
Considering their leader, by his own definition, lied publicly in order to make himself look good and create a picture of public support where there is none, managed to first demand less Machiavellian and realpolitiks from every alliance on Planet Bob, then continued to point out that he wanted to do more of this with his own alliance, all in the same interview...
well, don't get your hopes up

[Crymson]

[quote name='AndrewHG' date='08 July 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1278578420' post='2363285']
Thing is I care.
I don't like seeing any alliance dissolving itself to ZI.
Gre, ditch the fundamentalist. Go to a table- any table and call it a day. Take the offer and move on.
[/quote]

At this point, I think it'd take an act of magnanimity for IRON and DAWN to give white peace to the Gramlins; I really question if anyone would care were IRON/DAWN to demand reparations.

Of course, for the Gramlins to request white peace would require that Ramirus kowtow, and I doubt he has it in him to admit that his plans did not end in success for his alliance.

[wenwillthisend]

[quote name='Crymson' date='11 July 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1278817689' post='2366521']
At this point, I think it'd take an act of magnanimity for IRON and DAWN to give white peace to the Gramlins; I really question if anyone would care were IRON/DAWN to demand reparations.

Of course, for the Gramlins to request white peace would require that Ramirus kowtow, and I doubt he has it in him to admit that his plans did not end in success for his alliance.
[/quote]


But in Ram's mind he is winning, he is keeping the evil IRON at war. It would not surprise me if he keeps them at war that long that the alliances IRON surrendered to crack it and demand that IRON pay reps or face another war. Ram would do something like that