ERA Response to TSP

[Andover]

[quote name='Jakome' date='16 May 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1274029317' post='2299938']
Really this is a mistake on both parts. TSP should have responded to the MDoAP announcement faster and in private, possibly allowing ERA to figure out a back up plan. ERA shouldn't have been so gung ho about getting out of the protectorate or quick to make a post. But hey, the mistakes of some can be profitable for others.
[/quote]


I definitely agree there, the situation would be much less hostile and have both alliances not looking like fools on the OWF if TSP had privately contacted me.

They dont have a good history of contacting people tho. When we (ERA) were protected by ADI, me and my gov were never informed of the disbandment of ADI, I didnt actually find out about it until about a week after the fact.

Most of ADI's allys didnt find out as well until some time later that ADI was actually dead

Edited May 16, 2010 by Andover

[Chief Savage Man]

I would not want the general CN community thinking that I was obligated to defend an alliance that I'm not. That's a dangerous misconception.

[Land of True Israel]

[i]Like sands through the hourglass....[/i]

Normally it's safe to assume that an FA official had authorization via proper alliance procedure, if they go ahead and proceed to send signatures, clearly ERA is getting the crap end of the stick for assuming TSP's FA followed his/her own alliance rules and protocol. With that said, it don't make the treaty any less null and void, no treaty ever really existed. Messy situation. Good luck to both parties.

[Baltus]

This is quite interesting. To be honest, Andover, I would have asked more than the MoFA for a treaty request. Though, Shades might have slipped, you should have known to talk to the rest of the gov. All the same, it looks like you just burnt all your bridges, No RoK and No TSP. It doesn't really matter what you say, because once they declare it invalid and say they're not coming to help you, then they probably aren't going to. Good luck, Andover, I'm very positive you shall need it.

[lonewolfe2015]

Even in death, ADI continues to bring quality drama through new incarnations. I salute you Warbuck, for that skill is far beyond anything I was willing to credit you with.

[Keve69]

This is absolutely ridiculous.... *sigh*

ERA and TSP both of you have been very bad! Now go to your rooms and think of what you've done! NAOW!

[wickedj]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='16 May 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1274038151' post='2300120']
Even in death, ADI continues to bring quality drama through new incarnations. I salute you Warbuck, for that skill is far beyond anything I was willing to credit you with.
[/quote]
One can only hope people like Invicta and GGA can bring this type of lulz

Ok heres the story as i understand it. TSP and ERA sign a treaty, one of the parties didnt correctly sign it and now considers it void..the OTHER party is going to try to shame them into honoring the treaty now? good grief..attack each other already or consider the treaty void and move on

[shadeslayers09]

[quote name='Andover' date='15 May 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1273962928' post='2299101']
Dear Bob citizens,

I present the following screen shots from the TSP forum showing that TSP did INDEED accept the treaty.

TSP Minister of FA informing me of acceptance
[IMG]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r23/Andoversr/Acceptance.jpg[/IMG]

edit: log dump



Edit2: Moar logs


Note how a TSP member and the former leader of ADI even admit that shade tends to Lie

As you can see The Shadow Proclamation has some explaining to do.


I had talked with their FA minister and other government members and was told the treaty would be acceptable and got that PM from their Minister of FA confirming the treaty as go.


In regards to the evidence above TSP's MOFA mislead ERA into the belief the treaty was good to go.

-Andover
President of ERA
[/quote]

You so messed up now for falsifying logs

It wasn't me that sent you those, it was kaplechistan, and here is the log of the only chat i had with you

[quote](Andover[ERA]): would TSP do a MDoAP?
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i don't see why not
(Andover[ERA]): ok
(Andover[ERA]): do u need time to approve it?
(Andover[ERA]): considering ERA was a protectorate I wouldnt see any problem just accepting it here and now
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i need the triumvirs approval first, but i don't see a problem
(Andover[ERA]): who all are Triumvirs atm
(Andover[ERA]): I heard warbuck quit CN totally
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): Kaplechistan, Grant, and JDorian
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): he did
Join: Andover[ERA]:#TSP
(Andover[ERA]): ill post the terms of the MDoAP on the ERA embassy on www.cn-adi.com , ok?
(Andover[ERA]): its gonna be fairly basic terms
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): ok
(Andover[ERA]): posted
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): okay
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i like the idea of KISS
(Andover[ERA]): KISS?
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): Keep It Short and Simple
(Andover[ERA]): ah
(Andover[ERA]):
(Andover[ERA]): afk for a lil
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): ok
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): ttyl
(Andover[ERA]): back, lemme know via PM on your forum when its approved k
[/quote]

that is the only chat i had with him about the treaty.

Now i wanted to know who gave him our sigs, so i asked around. i asked kaplechistan, one of our triumvirs, he told me that he gave them to andover thus proving that his logs are fake, here are those logs

[quote](Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): Kaplechistan[TSP]!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): whats up
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): sry been out
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): ok
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): whats up
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): we have/had a problem with ERA
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): why
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): whats wrong
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85897
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): they announced we had an MDoAP and put it up on the OWF, it included our sigs
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): Well I gave him our sigs and I talked about wanting an MDoAP with them I never approved of it but I spoke to them after they left RoK and said we can have an MDoAP now
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): so you didn't tell him we were going to do the MDoAP
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): I told him if since era was a part of RoK we can only discuss a PIAT
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): he suddenly decided to leave RoK and I told him it can open our abilities to have an MDoAP with ERA now
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): well now ERA is getting rolled by everyone
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): I spoke to RoK about it before I even discussed the MDoAP after ERA left
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): and RoK has no problem with us
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): I spoke to Hoo personally
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): I made sure our coners were covered before even discussing an MDoAP with ERA after just leaving the Ragnablok
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): yes, Hoo doesn't have a problem, the rest of the alliance has a problem
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): corners*
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): well Hoo runs RoK
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): he is who I go thru
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): if he is willin to speak to me about certain matters I take it to him
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i understand
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): Trust me I covered our corners and not one time I said all right we approve the MDoAP
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): not one time did I say go ahead and post it
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): ok good, just making sure
[/quote]

Also if you notice, not just in these logs but whenever i'm on IRC, after the TSP, i have LoFA.

now the pic he posted, yes i sent that, i was only saying it was looking good so far, not saying it was approved. in order for a treaty to be signed it has to be voted on by the HoS, which did not happen.

[pezstar]

[quote name='shadeslayers09' date='16 May 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1274065209' post='2300844']
You so messed up now for falsifying logs

It wasn't me that sent you those, it was kaplechistan, and here is the log of the only chat i had with you



that is the only chat i had with him about the treaty.

Now i wanted to know who gave him our sigs, so i asked around. i asked kaplechistan, one of our triumvirs, he told me that he gave them to andover thus proving that his logs are fake, here are those logs



Also if you notice, not just in these logs but whenever i'm on IRC, after the TSP, i have LoFA.

now the pic he posted, yes i sent that, i was only saying it was looking good so far, not saying it was approved. in order for a treaty to be signed it has to be voted on by the HoS, which did not happen.
[/quote]

So you're saying that one of the Triumvir's of your alliance sent him the signatures, but you're still trying to say that it wasn't official?

[Vesalius]

[quote name='shadeslayers09' date='16 May 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1274065209' post='2300844']
-snip-
[/quote]
There goes any sympathy for your cause. Not only did your government hand over the signatures (an act perceived as approval here), but it was a triumvir of your alliance. Congratulations, while exposing his further idiocy with the falsified logs you simultaneously destroyed any credibility your argument had.

[Un4Gvn1]

We've got apparent fake logs; Shadeslayers09 does always wear the [TSP|LoFA] tag and he's been forthright and honest in all dealings with us.

Kaplechistan made a mistake. That happens.

Since the OP claimed Shadeslayers gave him the signatures, but that isn't the case, is it possible there is another layer of misdirection going on here?

[Groucho Marx]

Brilliant politicking, Andover.

[Biazt]

Either way ERA is getting rolled. All is right in the world

[JDorian]

Andover i simple don't understand you. Why provide forged logs that Shadeslayer09 gave you the signatures when Kaplechistan gave you the signatures? Congratulations, you permanently destroyed your relationship with our Lord of Foreign Affairs. Also next time you try to forge logs, try using the right tag. Works better when you try to accuse someone.

Edited May 17, 2010 by JDorian

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Forged Logs?

When using the correct logs would actually have supported your stance?

Man, what is this, i dont even...

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='17 May 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1274080717' post='2301063']
Forged Logs?[/quote]
What is up with RoK's (former) allies and their forged logs?

[SyndicatedINC]

[quote name='shadeslayers09' date='16 May 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1274065209' post='2300844']
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): whats wrong
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85897
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): they announced we had an MDoAP and put it up on the OWF, it included our sigs
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): Well I gave him our sigs and I talked about wanting an MDoAP with them I never approved of it but I spoke to them after they left RoK and said we can have an MDoAP now
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): so you didn't tell him we were going to do the MDoAP
(Kaplechistan[TSP]): I told him if since era was a part of RoK we can only discuss a PIAT[/quote]

I am confused here. How is it in these logs, that you are informing Kaplechistan of the problem and verifying that he did not approve the treaty, by linking him to the forum thread you posted already stating the treaty was null and void. An announcement you issued that included Kaplechistan's signature?!? In the said same discussion this very trium admits handing over sigs to ERA for the treaty, that you then claim is null.

It would seem that there is already a tad bit of "trigger happy" behavior going on when it comes to making announcements before verification and included sigs of people before they approved.


[quote name='shadeslayers09' date='16 May 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1274065209' post='2300844']You so messed up now for falsifying logs

It wasn't me that sent you those, it was kaplechistan, and here is the log of the only chat i had with you



that is the only chat i had with him about the treaty.

Now i wanted to know who gave him our sigs, so i asked around. i asked kaplechistan, one of our triumvirs, he told me that he gave them to andover thus proving that his logs are fake, here are those logs



Also if you notice, not just in these logs but whenever i'm on IRC, after the TSP, i have LoFA.

now the pic he posted, yes i sent that, i was only saying it was looking good so far, not saying it was approved. in order for a treaty to be signed it has to be voted on by the HoS, which did not happen.
[/quote]

As for the rest, I know nothing of the log's legitimacy but I would truth Peggy Sue's word on the issue of your name tag. However the screenshot Andover provided shows he uses mibbit, and I know more than once I have had mibbit botch my logs to the point of erasing the speaker's name. In such instance it would be possible to understand a mistake such as you pointed out.


Either way the main issue (aside form log faking) is the timeline of events here. First is that by your own evidence provided logs you show your last conversation with Andover ended with ERA expecting you to PM them via your forums when it is completed. Then this is followed by a PM on the forum from you to he stating that it will work. Third you have either yourself (as Andover claims) or your Trium (as you claim) both in position of authority to make a statement (your claim actually being in a greater position to do so) about the inclusion of sigs. Neither positions claim is making any specific reference to a statement being made about "having to wait final approval" nor is the screenshot showing such. Then 5 days after the forum PM the announcement is put up by Andover.


All told it looks like Andover was assuming far too much and should have waited for the magical words "we are 100% a go". Shame on him for not doing so. Likewise if you were not 100% you should have made the statement at some point in any of those conversations that you were still awaiting formal agreement. It happens from time to time here, but the classy thing to have done would have to talked to Andover in private about the situation. The two of you were after all supposedly friends and close enough to sign a MDoAP. Instead you announce on the OWF that he is up excrement creek without a paddle, before you even notified your own trium, using that trium signature. You did not even have the courtesy to give Andover a heads up that you were pulling out, and he would be screwed. Then 2 days after he posts logs you are included in, you announce them to be fake. Why would you not have mentioned that first?

Call me paranoid, but I smell some kind of personal grudge going on here. To bad other people (including us in the OWF who read all these pages of mind-numbing content) has to suffer for it.

[Tim Burke]

Why am I not suprised at this turn of events?

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Vesalius' date='17 May 2010 - 05:02 AM' timestamp='1274068923' post='2300913']
There goes any sympathy for your cause. Not only did your government hand over the signatures (an act perceived as approval here), but it was a triumvir of your alliance. Congratulations, while exposing his further idiocy with the falsified logs you simultaneously destroyed any credibility your argument had.
[/quote]

I'm no fan of Andover's, in fact I'm very much the opposite but this is what I read into the situation too, the argument went from 'He got the sigs off our MoFA who can't approve treaties' to 'Andover faked those logs, he actually got them from a Trimvir'.

[quote name='shadeslayers09' date='15 May 2010 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1273901293' post='2298375']
The government of TSP announces as well that it will not retaliate against ERA. We don't see that it would be much good to wage war against a small alliance and this move of theirs will most likely do worst then war.[/quote]

The fact that you even considered this over a miscommunication is quite frankly hilarious. How can you 'retaliate'? Andover misunderstood what Kaplechistan said, assuming the handing over of signatures was a sign of approval, maybe Kaplechistan wasn't clear enough. These things happen on occasion and to my knowledge aren't usually grounds for declaring war on anyone, let alone someone you obviously considered to be a friend.

[Valtamdraugr]

I'm not fond of correlating events between this world and the "other", but typically.. sigs are final... name on the dotted line, and all that.

Draft, edit(s), approval, sigs.. right? Then there might be a conversation about who is going to post it as well.

Haste makes waste and in the end, it is we.. your audience... that is having the last laugh.

Pro tip for Andover: Stop. Wait. Try again.... quietly.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Mayzie' date='17 May 2010 - 05:52 AM' timestamp='1274100756' post='2301163']

The fact that you even considered this over a miscommunication is quite frankly hilarious. How can you 'retaliate'? Andover misunderstood what Kaplechistan said, assuming the handing over of signatures was a sign of approval, maybe Kaplechistan wasn't clear enough. These things happen on occasion and to my knowledge aren't usually grounds for declaring war on anyone, let alone someone you obviously considered to be a friend.
[/quote]



Most alliances would consider war here, Broseph. Beyond lying about the victim alliance, they are also continuing to slander their name, and are now providing fake logs.

[Vesalius]

Either alliance has a valid CB on the other at this point, it really doesn't matter. If there's anything this situation has shown, it's that the government of both ERA and TSP are utterly incompetent. I'd actually love to see them declare on each other, so we may have a shining example of how not to wage war.

Or, perhaps, you should both declare on your own respective alliances. Your efforts might be more productive that way. It would certainly be more entertaining.

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

I just felt the need to point out that:

(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i like the idea of KISS
(Andover[ERA]): KISS?
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): Keep It Short and Simple

KISS stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid"

And after yet another black eye for the "alliance formally known as ADI", does this mean you are going to change your name again?

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Sweeeeet Ronny D' date='17 May 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1274149770' post='2301813']
I just felt the need to point out that:

(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): i like the idea of KISS
(Andover[ERA]): KISS?
(Shadeslayers09[TSP|LoFA]): Keep It Short and Simple

KISS stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid"

And after yet another black eye for the "alliance formally known as ADI", does this mean you are going to change your name again?
[/quote]



I'd love to agree with you, if only you were right. Sadly, you are not. KISS stands for many things, not always "Keep it simple, stupid."

Nice try though, you don't lose points for trying.

[Taget]

The question before you is what is more important... proving you were right or looking after the well being of your alliance. The important thing is not whether TSP pulled the rug out from under you unfairly. Because clearly no matter what you say not only will they not be honoring the treaty that was under discussion. And even if they did they couldn't save you from your current predicament.

The predicament being that you have no treaties and are being attacked. In order to have that stop you'll need a new protector. In order to have a new protector you'll need to prove to someone you can be quiet and drama free. And certainly you'll never prove that to anyone with this pointless bickering with another small alliance who quite clearly wants nothing to do with you now regardless of whether they did or not in the past.

Everyone gets burned on occasion. Move on for the sake of the well being of those under your command.