ERA Response to TSP

[D34th]

[quote name='Andover' date='15 May 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1273962928' post='2299101']
ANY raiders attacking ERA members have 12 hours to peace out IMMEDIATELY or face retaliatory attacks from TSP and ERA.
[/quote]

12 hours to peace out immediately?

GOONS finally I'll see you be destroyed!

[KaitlinK]

[quote name='Andover' date='15 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1273962928' post='2299101']

ANY raiders attacking ERA members have 12 hours to peace out IMMEDIATELY or face retaliatory attacks from TSP and ERA.
[/quote]

Here's a suggestion, dont threaten the people turning your nations into parking lots it tends to just piss them off. Better for you to keep this a simple raid than have it become personal.

Oh and I must do the obligatory lol at Warbuck commenting on anyones character especially when it comes to something like honesty and "flipping their positions".

[King Hobbs]

Looks to me like u messed up ERA. Admit it and move on

[NoFish]

I'm eagerly awaiting the next thread, TSP's "Announcement Regarding ERA's Response to TSP" with the subtitle "No, we really didn't." Presumably we can get a good five or six more threads out of this subject before anyone manages to accomplish anything.

And people say Planet Bob is boring during peacetime. Hah!

[Aurion]

^ Or maybe this Andover dude will come to his senses and figure out that if the other folks don't want to be allied to him, he might want to simply let it go.

...

Nah, too sensible.

[pezstar]

[quote name='KaitlinK' date='15 May 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1273970577' post='2299230']

Oh and I must do the obligatory lol at Warbuck commenting on anyones character especially when it comes to something like honesty and "flipping their positions".
[/quote]

Oh, goodness, yes. Definitely this.

[quote name='NoFish' date='15 May 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1273971194' post='2299247']

And people say Planet Bob is boring during peacetime. Hah!
[/quote]

It's sad that this is the most action I've seen since the war ended.

[Andover]

I love how Bigbad worded this analysis on the Initial thread were TSP denied signing the treaty:

[quote]
My question is where was TSP 5 days ago? If TSP could not decide if they signed a treaty how was ERA suppose to know they had not? And why did TSP send sigs, traditionally something sent right before a treaty is posted if they were not signing it? Now I do not know these alliances. . . TSP is cleary either lying or one of the slowest acting and most completely confused alliances on all of Bob. Seriously how does something like this happen? And how does it take 5 days for an alliance to figure out if it signed a treaty or not? What is wrong with you people?
[/quote]

so TSP? Care to explain?

Edited May 16, 2010 by Andover

[Banksy]

[quote name='Andover' date='16 May 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1273982706' post='2299479']
I love how Bigbad worded this analysis on the Initial thread were TSP denied signing the treaty:

[quote]My question is where was TSP 5 days ago? If TSP could not decide if they signed a treaty how was ERA suppose to know they had not? And why did TSP send sigs, traditionally something sent right before a treaty is posted if they were not signing it? Now I do not know these alliances. . . TSP is cleary either lying or one of the slowest acting and most completely confused alliances on all of Bob. Seriously how does something like this happen? And how does it take 5 days for an alliance to figure out if it signed a treaty or not? What is wrong with you people?[/quote]

so TSP? Care to explain?
[/quote]
Um.... I think you explained it for him with those logs. TSP was confused and their MoFA wasn't authorised to sign off the treaty.

[Yukon Don]

Hmmm....you are accomplishing nothing. The alliance has stated that the appropriate govt officials didn't accept the treaty. Therefore from their standpoint and the rest of the planet's it is null and void. Even if you prove that your contact accepted it, he had no authority. Therefore TSP has 3 choices

1) Flog their guy in public...not likely
2) deal with him internally...most likely
3) accept the treaty temporarily and fight...they already clearly stated they aren't doing this...so extremely unlikely.


So you can continue to try and recover your position, which very well may be right...but it is irrelevant. You are defenseless and alone. Work to a solution, as the one you thought was there is gone. TSP is clearly not coming to your rescue.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Yukon Don

[JDorian]

[quote name='Andover' date='16 May 2010 - 04:05 AM' timestamp='1273982706' post='2299479']
I love how Bigbad worded this analysis on the Initial thread were TSP denied signing the treaty:

[quote]My question is where was TSP 5 days ago? If TSP could not decide if they signed a treaty how was ERA suppose to know they had not? And why did TSP send sigs, traditionally something sent right before a treaty is posted if they were not signing it? Now I do not know these alliances. . . TSP is cleary either lying or one of the slowest acting and most completely confused alliances on all of Bob. Seriously how does something like this happen? And how does it take 5 days for an alliance to figure out if it signed a treaty or not? What is wrong with you people?[/quote]


so TSP? Care to explain?
[/quote]

Explain it? Okay then. Why did it take 5 days to respond? Simple .. we are not browsing the OWF each day and weren't actually looking to get notified that we approved and signed a treaty we still where discussing internally and never voted on. But what evidence is being brought forth here? A screenshot of a Priviate message saying "[b]seems the MDoAP will work[/b]", two days after the first draft was posted in the ERA embassy at our forum. Second the sign bloc ... yes i'll admit it looks strange but asking "[b]Andover[ERA]: Shade I need the sig block for the treaty[/b]" doesn't sound like shade came first and said yes that is was approved. Putting a sig bloc on announcement and treaties before it's approved or voted on is common to save time later on. The third "evidence" is more or less just something to discredit shades character. However none of this so called evidence shows anything close to that shade did anything wrong. I trust shade completely ... he has never gave us a reason to doubt him. Of cause since you ask so nicely i'll speak to him about this and find out if there is any truth about your accusations, but as far as i know it more sounds like you misunderstood what he said to you which resulted in you announcing that we have a treaty when we didn't. So don't come to us and use our alliance history to drag your mistakes over to us.

But regardless what is being threatened here ... the treaty is invalid and we have no obligations on honoring this treaty since it was never approved and voted on. Just as we announced earlier.

Edited May 16, 2010 by JDorian

[Dexomega]

[quote name='JDorian' date='16 May 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1273989374' post='2299579']
Explain it? Okay then. Why did it take 5 days to respond? Simple .. we are not browsing the OWF each day and weren't actually looking to get notified that we approved and signed a treaty we still where discussing internally and never voted on.[/quote]
Reasonable. I don't find a problem with that. I do feel that communication problems between the governments played a massive role in this one.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

What i find strange is that someone about a sign an Military treaty with another alliance does not know how their ally's government is setup. If TSP says their MoFA is not allowed to give the go ahead on treaties and it is the Triumvirs that have a go no-go say on it, ERA you really do need to step back and take stock of how you will do things from here on now.

I dont think TSP is about to come running in to help you crush your raiders. Time to talk to TSP is over, it is now time to talk to your raiders. Just take it slow and reasonable from here on. Also, dont accept a protectorate or a treaty just because you have other irons in the fire and you need to till those irons are hot.

Pro-tip: A protectorate is more a one way street for the protector. They are doing you a massive favor by giving you breathing space and enabling you to grow in peace. No protector would like the stunt you pulled with Ragnablok.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='16 May 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1273990075' post='2299586']
What i find strange is that someone about a sign an Military treaty with another alliance does not know how their ally's government is setup. If TSP says their MoFA is not allowed to give the go ahead on treaties and it is the Triumvirs that have a go no-go say on it, ERA you really do need to step back and take stock of how you will do things from here on now.

[/quote]

Oh come on. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that everything is good to go when the MoFA of an alliance gives you treaty signatures.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

How so? At RoK if it was not a Ruling Council member giving the sigs, or the go ahead, the treaty would not be valid. It all depends on who has the authority. When one signs with an alliance, i assume they will do their homework in getting to know the alliance. At the very least know who has the authority to sign off on treaties and stuff.

Not saying that the MoFA guy could not have been clearer in his communication though.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='16 May 2010 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1273992628' post='2299612']
How so? At RoK if it was not a Ruling Council member giving the sigs, or the go ahead, the treaty would not be valid. It all depends on who has the authority. When one signs with an alliance, i assume they will do their homework in getting to know the alliance. At the very least know who has the authority to sign off on treaties and stuff.

Not saying that the MoFA guy could not have been clearer in his communication though.
[/quote]

That kind of is what you said. Your previous post tossed all of the blame on ERA. I think it was perfectly reasonable for them to assume that they had a treaty, when the MoFA gave them signatures. The handing over of the signatures is the way things become official in CN. I'm the FM of STA, and while I certainly can't approve treaties without Tyga, I hand over signatures. I'd be offended if someone went over my head to Tyga and said "Hey, we just want to make sure your FM isn't full of crap here!" He also appeared to have been working the treaty out with the MoFA. No, no. ERA did nothing unreasonable or absurd or wrong in this, up until they came and pitched a hissy fit with this post. Absurd is demanding that someone defend you, and threatening GOONS with their action. Absurd is not assuming that when the person in an alliance who is in charge of Foreign Affairs hands you a signature list, it's meaningless.

Edit: I just reread this, and it's all disjointed with my points scattered all over the place. I'm on some pretty hefty narcotic pain medication, so if what I am writing isn't making a lot of sense and is difficult to read, I apologize.

Edited May 16, 2010 by pezstar

[Shellhound]

[quote name='Andover' date='15 May 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1273962928' post='2299101']

In regards to the evidence above TSP has not properly exited the treaty, therefore the MDoAP is still active.

-Andover
President of ERA
[/quote]

In regards to the above, TSP had not properly signed on to the treaty therefore the MDoAP is void.

[GoddessOfLinn]

[quote name='pezstar' date='16 May 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1273993243' post='2299616']
That kind of is what you said. Your previous post tossed all of the blame on ERA. I think it was perfectly reasonable for them to assume that they had a treaty, when the MoFA gave them signatures. The handing over of the signatures is the way things become official in CN. I'm the FM of STA, and while I certainly can't approve treaties without Tyga, I hand over signatures. I'd be offended if someone went over my head to Tyga and said "Hey, we just want to make sure your FM isn't full of crap here!" He also appeared to have been working the treaty out with the MoFA. No, no. ERA did nothing unreasonable or absurd or wrong in this, up until they came and pitched a hissy fit with this post. Absurd is demanding that someone defend you, and threatening GOONS with their action. Absurd is not assuming that when the person in an alliance who is in charge of Foreign Affairs hands you a signature list, it's meaningless.
[/quote]

The man is right! If the treaty was not a sure thing, then the MoFA should not have handed the signatures. TSP should give an apology for the behavior of their MoFA and maybe even help ERA out with the rebuilding after the raids have finished. How ever TSP should not be exepted to honor a treaty that their MoFA accepted with out permittion from the leader(s) of TSP.

[Rampage3]

Treaties are never an assumption thing. That you have sigs from an MoFA means exactly that: you have sigs from an MoFA. The only thing possession of sigs really means is you can make your announcement cute and save it for when it is time to post.

If you are close enough to an alliance to MDoAP them, then you should be close enough to them to know their structure, in particular the people that should be spoken to confirm such a treaty. If they have a Triumvir system, unless one of the Tri IS the MoFA, you need to confirm with them. If they have an Ruling Council or Emperor, you likewise should be speaking with them.

I place the issue here with ERA for one big reason: they NEED the protection. Last I checked, neither Ragnarok nor TSP had an issue with raiders. Any alliance in this situation should find a safe place and STAY there and learn and grow. ERA was safe. THEY made the choice to leave Ragnablok and, in their haste, they did not practice due diligence in obtaining the treaty needed to keep themselves safe. Had they been prudent they could have maintained ties to BOTH alliances and all of this never would have occurred, but they chose this path and in this manner and so now must accept the consequences.

[Jrenster]

I'm pretty sure this shows that both government parties are wholly incompetent. That's about it.

[President S O]

Get over it, who cares. Based on all of this you aren't/don't want to be/shouldn't be allied anyway. Two alliances, both *&^%ed up along the line.

Moving along... next.

EDIT: Oh yeah, good luck.

Edited May 16, 2010 by President S O

[Penkala]

As much as you try, you won't convince TSP to honor their treaty. Whether it was their screwup or not, they say the treaty doesn't exist in their eyes. You're not going to publicly shame them into defending you.

Some people have given some very good advice in this thread. Stop posting and search out a new treaty partner (protectorate maybe) [i]immediately[/i]. Sign with them and then be quiet for a while until the storm passes. Then just move on.

[Burnsey]

Andover, have I ever told you that you need to stop looking for drama and trouble? pretty sure I have but its not as if you'll listen, you sure didn't listen when you were asked to go to war for WAPA...

Edited May 16, 2010 by Burnsey

[Auctor]

I find this hilarious. Thanks Andover, I just wish you'd put some subtitles on this thing to keep me from peeing on the couch from laughing too hard.

[Jakome]

Really this is a mistake on both parts. TSP should have responded to the MDoAP announcement faster and in private, possibly allowing ERA to figure out a back up plan. ERA shouldn't have been so gung ho about getting out of the protectorate or quick to make a post. But hey, the mistakes of some can be profitable for others.

[Chief Savage Man]

That doesn't cut it. Sorry.