The New Grämlins

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Heft' date='21 April 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1271870893' post='2269263']
Messages to nations are not acts of war. We settled this nearly a year ago, thankyouverymuch.
[/quote]

Matter settled. Our Sith Overlords have given judgment.

[King Chill I]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='21 April 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1271875093' post='2269336']
Matter settled. Our Sith Overlords have given judgment.
[/quote]

Now if we could only bring ourselves to care about it.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='King Chill I' date='21 April 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1271875380' post='2269342']
Now if we could only bring ourselves to care about it.
[/quote]

I'm not holding my breath...

[ironchef]

[quote name='King Chill I' date='21 April 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1271862902' post='2269132']
Hmm so what im seeing here is subversion by an outside actor not involved in the conflict. I think this gives Gre a pretty damn solid CB against ironchef and TORN (if they dont expel and disavow her).
Steps must be taken to deal with such terrorists and criminals.
I recommend PZI as subversive elements are usually arrested and shot.
[/quote]

Oh Chill you know I do love it when you get all Gestapo on me The PM I sent was really nothing much, however it made members say OMGWTFmybffjill. Some had no idea about the unconditional surrender and disarmament of DAWN and IRON. Most had not read this thread. Some knew and didn’t know most of CN would cheer and not persecute them if they wanted to leave. It was just an eye opener for the members. What they do with it is up to them.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='King Chill I' date='21 April 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1271870250' post='2269244']
In this case though if i were IRON i wouldnt surrender, my sources tell me the evil gremlins intend to include [b]Prima Nocta[/b] as part of the terms.
[/quote]

Now THAT would make for some interesting propaganda! Now I understand what Ram was thinking when he said he wanted to make this [OOC]game[/OOC] more fun

Edited April 21, 2010 by Lord Curzon

[King Chill I]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='21 April 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1271876246' post='2269363']
Now THAT would make for some interesting propaganda! Now I understand what Ram was thinking when he said he wanted to make this [OOC]game[/OOC] more fun
[/quote]

Yea man, he gone get medieval on yo butts.

[quote name='ironchef' date='21 April 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1271875558' post='2269348']
Oh Chill you know I do love it when you get all Gestapo on me
[/quote]

Girl you know i look good in them leather boots and tight uniforms. Though dont you go and make me break out ma whip, or !@#$ gone get serious up in here.

Edited April 21, 2010 by King Chill I

[SynthFG]

So what are the odds on NSO recruiting RAM

[Bob Janova]

Sending messages to nations in an alliance isn't a CB. Trying to recruit them could be – after all Grämlins offered support to TDO last time NSO decided to push that particular envelope – but Ironchef wasn't doing that as far as I can see.

Posting those PM responses in public isn't very classy, though.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='21 April 2010 - 01:19 AM' timestamp='1271830766' post='2268914']I do find it funny that you think I seem to know jack about what is actually happening in my alliance.
Considering I am the one in GRE and not you and that I am a very active member that asks alot of question to the people that have answers and actually get answers, seems to me you really have no idea[/quote]
Considering you are in Gre, which means you have a bias to be favorable towards your alliance and that you're in a insane alliance, I don't trust what you say.

[quote name='King Chill I' date='21 April 2010 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1271862902' post='2269132']Hmm so what im seeing here is subversion by an outside actor not involved in the conflict. I think this gives Gre a pretty damn solid CB against ironchef and TORN (if they dont expel and disavow her).
Steps must be taken to deal with such terrorists and criminals.
I recommend PZI as subversive elements are usually arrested and shot.[/quote]
A message explaining the current political situation is not CB-worthy.

I hope those few Gre members try to leave Gre, aren't officially allowed to, and leave anyway. Hopefully, then Gre will try to attack that nation, and the nation's new alliance would defend themselves against Gre. I [i]really[/i] hope for this. It wouldn't violate a re-entry clause.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='21 April 2010 - 04:07 AM' timestamp='1271837232' post='2268994']
I can tell you what would happen: Nothing.

Your alliance would do nothing at all, nor can they logically. No matter what your leaders tell you, you do not have any support from the world at large. There is absolutely no way you guys can enforce a policy that keeps your members locked in that asylum given your recent actions and your current stats and position. Normally, its reasonable for a person to come under attack for desertion, however when someone acts as outlandishly as your alliance has they should not expect to be treated with reason. If anything, I expect that if a member were to leave Gre and join another alliance and you attacked that nation after he was admitted, it would be considered an act of war.


Think of it as a refugee claiming sanctuary.
[/quote]

This man speaks the truth. And as much fun as I normally have pulling his tail I completely agree with him. Also I am not sure what path I should take in all this as it appears Gramlins is now loosing the war. They can not attack what they are not in range of and the nations they do have in range to non hippy nations are getting killed. Also aid seems to be pretty freely flowing into IRON and lets face it Gramlins can do nothing about that either. I could help set up outside aid for IRON and DAWN but at the moment they don't need it. What I am confused about is what is Gramlins current tactics? They can not hurt IRON anymore, the nations they do have in range are getting trashed, all of Planet Bob hates them, no one has any reason to seek with peace with them and on top of all that they are screwing C&G out of reps. Right now this is turning out to be win win for IRON.

[shilo]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='22 April 2010 - 04:58 AM' timestamp='1271905086' post='2270107']
This man speaks the truth. And as much fun as I normally have pulling his tail I completely agree with him. Also I am not sure what path I should take in all this as it appears Gramlins is now loosing the war. They can not attack what they are not in range of and the nations they do have in range to non hippy nations are getting killed. Also aid seems to be pretty freely flowing into IRON and lets face it Gramlins can do nothing about that either. I could help set up outside aid for IRON and DAWN but at the moment they don't need it. What I am confused about is what is Gramlins current tactics? They can not hurt IRON anymore, the nations they do have in range are getting trashed, all of Planet Bob hates them, no one has any reason to seek with peace with them and on top of all that they are screwing C&G out of reps. Right now this is turning out to be win win for IRON.
[/quote]
There is only so much we can do, we easily outnumber them up to 35k NS, but if you take a look at nations above that range, things change drastically. Their tactics are quite simple, let us cripple their lower tier, and then sit on top of us for as long as it takes, because any nation that would dare to grow beyond the safe realm would be beat down by gRAMlin tech monsters. The problem is, those very nations are the ones that have to finance the rebuilding effort for IRON and DAWN, pay the tech dealers with money.
I don't think even ram had the illusion they would win the fight in the lower tier, he is counting on his superior top tier to win the war.

Now of course, in a war of attrition, fighting for months, even for a year, we can slowly hurt one nation after another in their mid tier so that at least our mid tier is safe as well, but the cost for this is extremely high. Nations that should be concerned with assisting the rebuilding effort will have to spent their WC to build up infra so that they can get in range just for the sole purpose of getting it nuked away by the gRAMlins, and we aren't talking about rebuying up to 1k infra, but maybe up to 6k, or 8k or even higher, and not just once, but several times.
Do the calculations how much this costs for even one nation.

This is money that cannot be used to rebuild IRON and DAWN, and the warchests are not endless either.

Edited April 22, 2010 by shilo

[Cormalek]

I noticed interesting argumentation here (this thread, and the Random Tech Deals thread). So what do we have here? Apparently IRON and DAWN allies believe that even if they join in - they will not be able to win, nor even change anything. At the same time, Grämlins are hurting in lower tiers, and have lost some bigger nations, leading me to belief, that whether any of alliances in question join, or not - the only thing that would change is the GRL. Or maybe if the ones who "come to help" are really unskilled in battle, providing Grämlins with looting grounds.
But as Shilo pointed out, IRON + DAWN and Grämlins - have drastically different power layout (big v mid v small nations ratio)

What options are on the table here? I see:
- IRON and DAWN winning against Grämlins
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally now, hope for the best and do the PR dance
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally after doing all the damage possible to them (as they admit, that high tier will be tricky) - and see if this opens any new possibilities

Grämlins have lost members, got a PR blow (they don't care about OWF, but it's not limited to here), their low tier is getting kicked. Is it much? I dunno. But I doubt that more will be accomplished if this war lasts longer. There's a remote chance of limiting their tech trading, but I doubt it will work. If someone was about to quit, he'd do it already. There's is some potential in Ironchefs PM's as well, we will see.

IRON and DAWN are still able to fight, and are winning, but this is mainly because of the "battered warrior effect" [ooc: impros and wonders not counting to NS]. They will deal visible damage for some more time, and then... what? They will be able to sit on top of ZI'd nations, and have Grämlins sit on top of their top tier. Hardly a patting situation, more like gazing onto chessboard in hope of seeing any move that will [b]not[/b] cause losing material.

Do any of you see other ways out? Maybe the ones I presented are faulty (high or low probability aside)?
If you don't see any new ones, nor errors in those presented, which seems realistic to you? Why so?

[ironchef]

Wise words Cormalek,I will say it here again. I have always considered MHA to be one of the most honorable alliance in CN, and your loyalty to Grämlins is something I have come to expect from you. But I do feel you are doing your friend an injustice.

I don’t see IRON and DAWN winning against Grämlins as an option to end this war, and this is why.

As long as the current government of Grämlins is in power they will never admit defeat. Even if there are only 15 members left in Grämlins they will keep this war going.

IRON and DAWN will be stuck in eternal war with Grämlins. No reps will ever get paid to CnG so IRON and DAWN will be stuck under terms with CnG forever.

The only way I see this ending is with a united front against Grämlins. Not a military front but those that Grämlins call friends and those that call themselves friends of Grämlins coming together in one voice and saying “We are done with your madness and if you are hell bent on destroying your alliance we will not stand in the way of those that are hell bent on speeding you down that path.”

It’s hard for me to fathom that any alliance with an ounce intelligence would even want there to be a remote chance that Grämlins would be given the opportunity to set a [b][i]prec’e’dents[/i]: [/b]1 [i]example for later action or decision;[/i] for those that don’t know the meaning of that word, of total disarmament and unconditonal surrender before peace talk can take place and terms are given.

If those of you that have some sway over Grämlins as friends can’t get them to see the madness in what they are doing, then you need to do what is best for your members and cut them loose. It’s never easy to let a friend stand alone and pay for the wrongs they have done, trust me I know how hard that is. I’m not asking for you to leave them out in the cold to die alone. What I am asking is for you to help them one way or another. Try talking sense into them and if that will not work step aside and let others slap some sense into them.

This is just how I see things. Take it for what you feel it's worth.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='22 April 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1271920252' post='2270474']
What options are on the table here? I see:
- IRON and DAWN winning against Grämlins
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally now, hope for the best and do the PR dance
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally after doing all the damage possible to them (as they admit, that high tier will be tricky) - and see if this opens any new possibilities
[/quote]

Option 1 is long time away, its effectively putting us in a war with no time limit.
Option 2 & 3 is like taking a leap of faith on Ramirus, They guy's made hollow the alliances he's had leadership roles in, thats what he's done to them, we're "terrorist", who know what he'll do to us lol.

The war will be simply resolved when Gre's friends draw a line. You know who all they are. We've heard words and words, the only actions have been implicit political and military support of Gre.

[shilo]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='22 April 2010 - 09:11 AM' timestamp='1271920252' post='2270474']
I noticed interesting argumentation here (this thread, and the Random Tech Deals thread). So what do we have here? Apparently IRON and DAWN allies believe that even if they join in - they will not be able to win, nor even change anything. At the same time, Grämlins are hurting in lower tiers, and have lost some bigger nations, leading me to belief, that whether any of alliances in question join, or not - the only thing that would change is the GRL. Or maybe if the ones who "come to help" are really unskilled in battle, providing Grämlins with looting grounds.
But as Shilo pointed out, IRON + DAWN and Grämlins - have drastically different power layout (big v mid v small nations ratio)

What options are on the table here? I see:
- IRON and DAWN winning against Grämlins
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally now, hope for the best and do the PR dance
- IRON and DAWN surrender unconditionally after doing all the damage possible to them (as they admit, that high tier will be tricky) - and see if this opens any new possibilities

Grämlins have lost members, got a PR blow (they don't care about OWF, but it's not limited to here), their low tier is getting kicked. Is it much? I dunno. But I doubt that more will be accomplished if this war lasts longer. There's a remote chance of limiting their tech trading, but I doubt it will work. If someone was about to quit, he'd do it already. There's is some potential in Ironchefs PM's as well, we will see.

IRON and DAWN are still able to fight, and are winning, but this is mainly because of the "battered warrior effect" [ooc: impros and wonders not counting to NS]. They will deal visible damage for some more time, and then... what? They will be able to sit on top of ZI'd nations, and have Grämlins sit on top of their top tier. Hardly a patting situation, more like gazing onto chessboard in hope of seeing any move that will [b]not[/b] cause losing material.

Do any of you see other ways out? Maybe the ones I presented are faulty (high or low probability aside)?
If you don't see any new ones, nor errors in those presented, which seems realistic to you? Why so?
[/quote]
Sadly, this is pretty much how it will go, however, don't expect us to sit there and gaze at gRAMlins, we will go all the way and then some, because ram's idea simply will not be accepted, not now, not tommorow, not in a year. Thus the options we have are very limited - we are damned to win this conflict. The cost for this will be, considering how mere statistics look for us at the moment, rival that of the last war easily.

However, your first scenario assumes that the situation wouldn't change if we get support. Which is of course untrue. The situation for us would change drastically. The only reason why we cannot get support is because your alliance and CnG and likely the rest of the world would beat us and our allies down for touching their buddies/allies gRAMlins. So naturally, we wouldn't call in support knowing this will give CnG the excuse to finish us off for good. If that were not the case, and if your alliance would no longer protect gRAMlins, rest assured, we won't wait for gRAMlins to come to their senses.

So how long this conflict lasts is, except the highly unlikely chance of gRAMlins changing their minds and ending this madness, entirely up to CnG+allies and MHA.

And as it looks like now, this group is for various reasons, more than happy with the scenario outlined above.

[Consul of Monkeys]

I believe this fight should continue until gRAMlins surrender unconditionally to the superior forces of IRON/DAWN.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Consul of Monkeys' date='22 April 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1271927899' post='2270537']
I believe this fight should continue until gRAMlins surrender unconditionally to the superior forces of IRON/DAWN.
[/quote]

Nah, The Freinds>Infra brigade would pop in, draw the line and end the war tho we'd not sink to Ramirus and friends level and ask for unconditional surrender ever.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='22 April 2010 - 04:23 AM' timestamp='1271928172' post='2270539']
Nah, The Freinds>Infra brigade would pop in, draw the line and end the war tho we'd not sink to Ramirus and friends level and ask for unconditional surrender ever.
[/quote]

pretty much this. the moment IRON/DAWN ever got into a position to demand it, CnG/MHA/others will come storming in stating how wrong it is and threatening military intervention should IRON/DAWN dare to even think of demanding such a position.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='ironchef' date='21 April 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1271875558' post='2269348']
Oh Chill you know I do love it when you get all Gestapo on me [/quote]

Of course you do.

I mean, really, has anybody ever fantasized about being ravaged by someone dressed as a liberal?

[King Chill I]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='22 April 2010 - 09:49 AM' timestamp='1271947733' post='2270686']
Of course you do.

I mean, really, has anybody ever fantasized about being ravaged by someone dressed as a liberal?
[/quote]

Fail joke and potentially the lamest comment in a thread full of em.

In other news i await the next Radio Free Gramlins report on the "Please Gre's friends, betray the Gremlins" campaign.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='King Chill I' date='22 April 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1271953754' post='2270781']
Fail joke and potentially the lamest comment in a thread full of em.

In other news i await the next Radio Free Gramlins report on the "Please Gre's friends, betray the Gremlins" campaign.
[/quote]
When your government is lying to you as much as it appears Ram has to his members, all it takes is revealing the simple truth to start a riot.

Gre tried to send TORN propaganda messages too, it was hilarious. We got a laugh about it because our members are in the loop, and not being fed falsehoods on a regular basis. Which I suppose is why we laughed off their messages, and Gre finds ours so threatening.

[Omas Nams]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='22 April 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1271957492' post='2270833']
Gre tried to send TORN propaganda messages too, it was hilarious. We got a laugh about it because our members are in the loop, and not being fed falsehoods on a regular basis. Which I suppose is why we laughed off their messages, and Gre finds ours so threatening.
[/quote]

Todays lesson: Grämlins are srs bzns.

[Lennox]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='21 April 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1271880983' post='2269462']
So what are the odds on NSO recruiting RAM
[/quote]

We'll find out soon enough I guess.

[heggo]

He'd make good cannon fodder, at least.

[King Srqt]

It takes an awful lot for me to crawl out of the hole that I have been so comfortably hiding in lately, but this is just absurd. The Gramlins have spit in the face of everything they once stood for and it is really sad to see what they have become. I truly hope you get what you deserve from this.