The New Grämlins

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Alterego' date='31 March 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1270064279' post='2242265']
One shepard and some sheep. One man cant do anything unless he is allowed to by the membership.
[/quote]

If the sheep all leave, he can

[shaneprice]

This whole issue is a shame. The Gremlins have become what they fought so hard to extinguish. One tyrant fell, and another picked up the torch. Wonderful...

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1270064247' post='2242263']
I'm betting that you won't get off with anywhere near $0 in reps if you break your terms to go on the offensive [i]again[/i].
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]The way I see it, if they do then it is fully justified. Gre is out of line here, and I am a firm believer in justice.[/color]

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote][19:41] <VonDroz|Gre> i just went over stats and historical records
01[19:41] <DVDCCHN[IRON|SoS]> sounds like a fun time
[19:41] <VonDroz|Gre> i estimate we can fight for a couple years at this pace, a little longer bc i estimate a few applicants will join as well[/quote]

You had to do a statistical analysis to determine you could fight for years with 3 offensive wars? lol


CnG, they are no longer your problem and appeasement is not needed, I would say after this its time to wash your hands and go on home...

[King MyLife]

This will be interesting to see how this plays out...Im hoping GRE will come to its senses...=/ And i hope IRON get its well deserved peace...

Edited March 31, 2010 by mylife125

[jstep]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1270064247' post='2242263']
Read [i]all[/i] my posts on the subject or don't respond, please.

I have quite clearly stated two (2) times that it turns out that's not the case, as proved by Ram's logs today.
[/quote]

I'm sorry...we posted at the same time, although its sickening how quickly people jump to their defense when they don't know the story

Second the excuse that Gremlins is mad at IRON for lining up at them every chance, seems to forget that it was Gremlins who attacked IRON in Karma, breaking their treaty with TOP

Edited March 31, 2010 by jstep

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='jstep' date='31 March 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1270064522' post='2242273']
Second the excuse that Gremlins is mad at IRON for lining up at them every chance, seems to forget that it was Gremlins who attacked IRON in Karma, breaking their treaty with TOP
[/quote]
The Gramlins are not allowed to have grudges, as per the Codex.

[Letum]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' date='31 March 2010 - 08:28 PM' timestamp='1270063684' post='2242247']
GGA did not condone this post. This is an individual action I am taking as a member of Planet Bob's population.
[/quote]

Did I miss something, or are you no longer their leader? Leaders don't really have the privilege of taking individual actions. Sorry, but that's the price of power.



Also, can someone explain to me what exactly "unconditional surrender" is supposed to entail in the context of CN? The only thing I can think about that would be a true "Unconditional Surrender" is every nation in an alliance handing control of it's government at once (OOC: handing over the nations themselves, which is quite obviously not what anyone had in mind/ooc). Other than that, what is an unconditional surrender? Forcing a demilitarisation and exit from peace mode of all nations without a ceasefire, so that they are still under attack while demilitarised? Even that is harsh, and I would argue not a full Unconditional Surrender, since it would still leave a functioning and independent government capable of ordering people to buy up and attack again.

So, what is the exact demand being made here?

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Alterego' date='31 March 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1270064279' post='2242265']
One shepard and some sheep. One man cant do anything unless he is allowed to by the membership.
[/quote]
Some looked too hard into our charter.

Also, Eg, I am the ninja dude. You're my pet lizard.

[Penkala]

[quote name='jstep' date='31 March 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1270064522' post='2242273']
I'm sorry...we posted at the same time, although its sickening how quickly people jump to their defense when they don't know the story

Second the excuse that Gremlins is mad at IRON for lining up at them every chance, seems to forget that it was Gremlins who attacked IRON in Karma, breaking their treaty with TOP
[/quote]

1: Fair enough. My bad. I type pretty quick responses and forget others don't do the same. My apologies.
2: Not an excuse, just saying I can understand Gremlins being frustrated with IRON. What they're doing is extremely unnecessary, and even though I don't like IRON at all I'd find it pretty hilarious if everyone peaced out with IRON at once and left Gremlins fighting them alone.

Also, didn't you guys break like a half dozen treaties to enter in on the aggressive side of this war? And on the opposite side your allies (FOK, Umbrella) were lining up on, to boot? You clearly didn't care about allies in this one -- you cared about threats.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Penkala

[Alterego]

@ Penkala & neneko

A question is not a statement.

[quote]In the English language, the question mark (?), also known as an interrogation point, interrogation mark, question point, query,[1] or eroteme, is a punctuation mark that replaces the Full stop at the end of an interrogative sentence. The question mark is not used for indirect questions. The question mark character is also often used in place of missing or unknown data.[/quote]

[thaone]

[quote name='jstep' date='31 March 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1270064522' post='2242273']
I'm sorry...we posted at the same time, although its sickening how quickly people jump to their defense when they don't know the story

Second the excuse that Gremlins is mad at IRON for lining up at them every chance, seems to forget that it was Gremlins who attacked IRON in Karma, breaking their treaty with TOP
[/quote]

I'm wondering if anybody could show where IRON posted their DoW on Gremlins? I thought Gremlins became an alliance no longer involved in the treatyweb and they chose to go in against IRON in this war.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='thaone' date='31 March 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1270064846' post='2242283']
I'm wondering if anybody could show where IRON posted their DoW on Gremlins? I thought Gremlins became an alliance no longer involved in the treatyweb and they chose to go in against IRON in this war.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure Gre declared war on IRON to defend CnG, whom they have no treaties to. So let me get this straight, Gre is upset that IRON is always lining up against them even though it is Gre that is always declaring war? I just want to get my facts straight.[/color]

[jstep]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1270064771' post='2242281']
1: Fair enough. My bad. I type pretty quick responses and forget others don't do the same. My apologies.
2: Not an excuse, just saying I can understand Gremlins being frustrated with IRON. What they're doing is extremely unnecessary, and even though I don't like IRON at all I'd find it pretty hilarious if everyone peaced out with IRON at once and left Gremlins fighting them alone.

Also, didn't you guys break like a half dozen treaties to enter in on the aggressive side of this war? And on the opposite side your allies (FOK, Umbrella) were lining up on, to boot? You clearly didn't care about allies in this one -- you cared about threats.
[/quote]

I don't claim what we did in this war was right or smart...only that FOK was not our ally going into this war, they cancelled on us forcing our side

All I am saying is that TOP forgave that action by Gremlins at the time, and it is incredibly unreasonable for Gremlins to say that IRON is "lining up" for them time after time when they hit IRON first

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='31 March 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1270064997' post='2242286']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure Gre declared war on IRON to defend CnG, whom they have no treaties to. So let me get this straight, Gre is upset that IRON is always lining up against them even though it is Gre that is always declaring war? I just want to get my facts straight.[/color]
[/quote]

Yes... twice now, the first of which broke their "most important" treaty at the time

Edited March 31, 2010 by jstep

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='neneko' date='31 March 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1270063343' post='2242237']
I have to say I don't really get why gga is posting this either. Makes you look sort of like that ninja leader guy that posted the early terms (I'm really bad at names).
[/quote]

Does it really matter who's posting it? The truth is the truth no matter which mouth speaks it.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='31 March 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1270064997' post='2242286']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure Gre declared war on IRON to defend CnG, whom they have no treaties to. So let me get this straight, Gre is upset that IRON is always lining up against them even though it is Gre that is always declaring war? I just want to get my facts straight.[/color]
[/quote]
I would hope not. Nearly every Gremlin in Karma war had respect for Iron, except for very few.

[neneko]

[quote name='Alterego' date='31 March 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1270064816' post='2242282']
@ Penkala & neneko

A question is not a statement.
[/quote]
My answer was yes. Yes you should reconsider your surrender. You didn't expect answers when you asked the question? Answers usually follow questions.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='31 March 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1270064997' post='2242286']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure Gre declared war on IRON to defend CnG, whom they have no treaties to. So let me get this straight, Gre is upset that IRON is always lining up against them even though it is Gre that is always declaring war? I just want to get my facts straight.[/color]
[/quote]

So, just to make sure we have this straight... GRE, an uninvolved, unconnected party declared war on IRON for attacking an uninvolved party?

[kevin32891]

Jonathan Brookbank thank you for bringing this to public view, I never really liked Gre anway.

[deSouza]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' date='31 March 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1270062174' post='2242204']
I don't consider myself a friend of IRON, as I've had my fair share of differences with them in the past. In fact, prior to the restoration of the GGA, I was in MK fighting against IRON and TOP nations because of their outright aggressive attack on C&G. However, the behavior exhibited by the new Grämlins is outrageous and on par with the behavior of the NPO of the past. I call upon all right and just people of the Cyberverse to realize this is not the Grämlins of old and that remaining tied to them and encouraging this behavior is detrimental to the entirety of Planet Bob.

The "too long; didn't read" of the following logs are that IRON was offered terms, which they accepted, but were then told the terms were no longer available. Grämlins has decided they want IRON to completely demilitarize, without offering them any protection, before they will even "discuss peace terms." Read and make your own decision, but this war continues only because of the new Grämlins tyrannical behavior.



Tyrants rise and tyrants fall. No one rules forever.
[/quote]

And while cuba is not a black republic, it is a socialist republic that is correspondant to the native's wishes, the scorge he reffered.

Another brick in the wall of shame.

[Bob Janova]

This doesn't get any classier.

Unless people's terms have 'no re-entry' in them (which, let's be honest, all of them do, so the rest of this is moot), Grämlins have no treaties, so hitting them for global justice would be a pretty fair response. Certainly, I think that C&G and everyone else should be thinking about signing a separate peace and letting Grämlins stay out alone until they come to their senses.

It is a good thing not to leave a friend and ally on the field to die, but on the other hand, if they're abusing your power to be unreasonable, it's the right thing to do. I think people on that side are going to have a lot more understanding for TOP's decisions on the Echelon front in Karma after this, but in this case there should be no doubt that the Grämlins terms are unreasonable and should not be supported by holding peace with the rest of the coalition for them.

You bring shame on the Grämlins name.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='31 March 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1270065160' post='2242293']
So, just to make sure we have this straight... GRE, an uninvolved, unconnected party declared war on IRON for attacking an uninvolved party?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure that's right. And now Rammy is trying to demand reps for this, spinning this as a "defensive war," to avoid violating Gre law. Also, Ejay, you said Karma. When most of the old Gre's that made it a respectable alliance were still there. Rammy has full control, however, and most of the old guard of Gre is long gone.[/color]

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Letum' date='31 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1270064725' post='2242279']
Did I miss something, or are you no longer their leader? Leaders don't really have the privilege of taking individual actions. Sorry, but that's the price of power.



Also, can someone explain to me what exactly "unconditional surrender" is supposed to entail in the context of CN? The only thing I can think about that would be a true "Unconditional Surrender" is every nation in an alliance handing control of it's government at once (OOC: handing over the nations themselves, which is quite obviously not what anyone had in mind/ooc). Other than that, what is an unconditional surrender? Forcing a demilitarisation and exit from peace mode of all nations without a ceasefire, so that they are still under attack while demilitarised? Even that is harsh, and I would argue not a full Unconditional Surrender, since it would still leave a functioning and independent government capable of ordering people to buy up and attack again.

So, what is the exact demand being made here?
[/quote]

It means that when IRON does surrender, Gremlins can demand whatever they want, no questions, no negotiations. If they ask for 100 billion dollars in reps, IRON must do it. If they ask for permanent disarmament, IRON must do it.

OOC: This is how it's been used historically.

And this is quite a tenacious move from Gremlins. Also it's akin to committing political suicide. So good job.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Jrenster

[Penkala]

[quote name='Alterego' date='31 March 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1270064816' post='2242282']
@ Penkala & neneko

A question is not a statement.
[/quote]

Cool story, bro. Please let BAPS lead the way on violating surrender terms. Pretty please?

[AirMe]

What right does Ramirus and the Gremlins have to keep everyone in war when the main party involved on their side has already secured terms to end the war? Honestly, I will publicly say, to hell with Ram and the Gremlins, lets leave them on the field of battle. This was C&G's fight and we were here to support them, not Ram's ego. In this situation, Ram and Gremlins should defer to C&G's wishes instead of gumming the whole process up.