The New Grämlins

[Letum]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='31 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1270065517' post='2242302']
It means that when IRON does surrender, Gremlins can demand whatever they want, no questions, no negotiations. If they ask for 100 billion dollars in reps, IRON must do it. If they ask for permanent disarmament, IRON must do it.

OOC: This is how it's been used historically.

And this is quite a tenacious move from Gremlins. Also it's akin to committing political suicide. So good job.
[/quote]

But that's not a real unconditional surrender, because IRON can just take up arms again if they do not like the final peace settlement. Sure, they would be in a much, much worse military position, but if the terms demanded were harsh enough, it might be worth it. And I suspect that taking up arms again wouldn't truly be perceived as "breaking" terms by a large part of our world, as there was no agreement for them to break.

A true unconditional surrender implies a total handing over of control, so that the victorious party can do what it wants. For example, soldiers giving up their arms and becoming prisoners without guarantees. Here, no such control can be realistically given, so I am not quite sure what is going through Gremlin's minds, other than cool-sounding WWII stories.

[MCRABT]

There is some confusion here as to the time line of events so let me clarify what happened after this conversation:

VonDroz spoke with DVD on this occasion and stated his intentions, in the morning he came back sober and we once again re-affirmed and agreed to peace terms with Gremlins. At this time discussions on peace terms with CnG and Sparta were still on going. Upon reaching an agreement with CnG and Sparta in regards to surrender terms, Gremlins pulled the agreed offer off the table and once again replaced it with Von Droz's drunken offer.

[jstep]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1270065702' post='2242306']
Cool story, bro. Please let BAPS lead the way on violating surrender terms. Pretty please?
[/quote]

Not that BAPS could attack Gremlins effectively after fighting this war, but you're saying you'd attack them if they did?

[Penkala]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1270065743' post='2242307']
What right does Ramirus and the Gremlins have to keep everyone in war when the main party involved on their side has already secured terms to end the war? Honestly, I will publicly say, to hell with Ram and the Gremlins, lets leave them on the field of battle. This was C&G's fight and we were here to support them, not Ram's ego. In this situation, Ram and Gremlins should defer to C&G's wishes instead of gumming the whole process up.
[/quote]

Pretty much this. Not really sure who Gremlins thinks they are, tbh.

[quote]Not that BAPS could attack Gremlins effectively after fighting this war, but you're saying you'd attack them if they did? [/quote]

Woah woah, thought we were all just canceling our surrenders and resuming war with our C&G / SF enemies again to punish them for allowing this to happen!

Edited March 31, 2010 by Penkala

[AirMe]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1270065962' post='2242311']
Pretty much this. Not really sure who Gremlins thinks they are, tbh.
[/quote]

I fought the Karma war to prevent crap like this, not condone it.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' date='31 March 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1270063684' post='2242247']
GGA did not condone this post. This is an individual action I am taking as a member of Planet Bob's population.
[/quote]

Uhh dude, no. Your head of government, you don't get to disavow your own actions. Your actions are your alliances actions.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='31 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1270065937' post='2242309']
There is some confusion here as to the time line of events so let me clarify what happened after this conversation:

VonDroz spoke with DVD on this occasion and stated his intentions, in the morning he came back sober and we once again re-affirmed and agreed to peace terms with Gremlins. At this time discussions on peace terms with CnG and Sparta were still on going. Upon reaching an agreement with CnG and Sparta in regards to surrender terms, Gremlins pulled the agreed offer off the table and once again replaced it with Von Droz's drunken offer.
[/quote]

Incredible. I really want to hear Gremlin's rationale for this, if they even have one.

[King MyLife]

[quote name='My Name Is Romance' date='31 March 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1270063842' post='2242251']
He apologized and said he was drunk. It may not excuse what he said, because it was said, but it can't be taken as hard fact. If you want to treat some drunk person as hard fact go right ahead. But i doubt anyone would do that [ooc]in real life[/ooc], but when you have a point to prove, you'll take it as hard fact. Go figure.

Moved to WA, edited in brackets.
[/quote]


Being drunk is no excuse for his actions...Regardless if its a hard fact or not...

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Letum' date='31 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1270065909' post='2242308']
But that's not a real unconditional surrender, because IRON can just take up arms again if they do not like the final peace settlement. Sure, they would be in a much, much worse military position, but if the terms demanded were harsh enough, it might be worth it. And I suspect that taking up arms again wouldn't truly be perceived as "breaking" terms by a large part of our world, as there was no agreement for them to break.

A true unconditional surrender implies a total handing over of control, so that the victorious party can do what it wants. For example, soldiers giving up their arms and becoming prisoners without guarantees. Here, no such control can be realistically given, so I am not quite sure what is going through Gremlin's minds, other than cool-sounding WWII stories.
[/quote]

If they take up arms, then they are breaking their word to unconditional surrender.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='mylife125' date='31 March 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1270066143' post='2242315']
Being drunk is no excuse for his actions...Regardless if its a hard fact or not...
[/quote]

The "I'm drunk don't take anything I say seriously" is possibly the worst excuse to say after you verbally $%&@-up.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='31 March 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1270066230' post='2242320']
The "I'm drunk don't take anything I say seriously" is possibly the worst excuse to say after you verbally $%&@-up.
[/quote]

We're past this already. Do try to keep up.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Penkala

[jstep]

[quote name='Penkala' date='31 March 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1270065962' post='2242311']
Woah woah, thought we were all just canceling our surrenders and resuming war with our C&G / SF enemies again to punish them for allowing this to happen!
[/quote]

I was under the impression that you were supporting Gremlins ability to do this, your next post cleared this up

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='31 March 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1270066111' post='2242314']
Incredible. I really want to hear Gremlin's rationale for this, if they even have one.
[/quote]

This might help:

[quote]
[12:20pm] Egwaterboy61: Idk. To be honest. You can do what your doing. But the POINT of Gremlins is to NOT do it. Even when you have the power to kick someone when their down you don't. THATS what gremlins was. This is just surprising, for you guys, is all....

[12:20pm] RamirusMaximus|GRE: Yeah, they can place themselves at our mercy. If they're scared of the result, that's their problem man.[/quote]

Edited March 31, 2010 by Egwaterboy61

[kevin32891]

I'm really having trouble determining which is a bigger and better train wreck, Gre's behavior or Penkala's illogical and incoherent statements.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='31 March 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1270066444' post='2242324']
I'm really having trouble determining which is a bigger and better train wreck, Gre's behavior or Penkala's illogical and incoherent statements.
[/quote]

Close call, really. Im gonna have to go with the latter.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Let's see if I understand this correctly.

1. Gre went into this war offensively, so asking for any reps is against their Codex (so I've heard).
2. IRON has secured peace from all but Sparta, pending peace on all alliances attacking IRON (aka, Sparta). This includes every party that IRON aggressively attacked.
3. Gre retracts their acceptance.
4. Gre demands IRON unconditionally surrender before Gre allows ANY peace negotiations. Unconditional surrender means Gre gets to have IRON do whatever the hell they want.


Why does Gre, who always aggressively attacks IRON, want unconditional surrender when all their alleged reasons for going into war (helping their paperless allies) are now nonexistent because those alliances have accepted peace?


Edit: Insert a comment about how terrible Gre has become.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[neneko]

[quote name='jstep' date='31 March 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1270065959' post='2242310']
Not that BAPS could attack Gremlins effectively after fighting this war, but you're saying you'd attack them if they did?
[/quote]
I naturally can't speak officially for MK but I don't see any good reason we wouldn't defend them if they got attacked now. They came into this in our defense and while we're apparently disagreeing on the terms of surrender they're still being discussed and it'd be pretty rotten to abandon a friend because we disagree with them.

Not saying we should eternally support a war against iron if the discussions don't lead anywhere but saying that they're free for anyone to attack before we really try to discuss the issue would be a crappy move.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='31 March 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1270066625' post='2242326']
2. IRON has secured peace from all but Sparta, pending peace on all alliances attacking IRON (aka, Sparta). This includes every party that IRON aggressively attacked.
[/quote]
Untrue. Gre is the only holdup.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='31 March 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1270066727' post='2242328']
Untrue. Gre is the only holdup.
[/quote]
Then leave them to fend for themselves, this more like Gre's personal problems than coming to the aid of C&G.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='31 March 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1270066727' post='2242328']
Untrue. Gre is the only holdup.
[/quote]

Was I thought?

The logs gave the impression they had peace from Gre, but Gre changed their mind.

[Penkala]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='31 March 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1270066444' post='2242324']
I'm really having trouble determining which is a bigger and better train wreck, Gre's behavior or Penkala's illogical and incoherent statements.
[/quote]

You can't understand that an alcohol fueled rant followed by a disclaimer and a promise to re-address an issue [i]may[/i] not be the official government stance, and that there can be a difference between the two (although there isn't in this case)?

.....ok, then.

And I guess the question to Gre gov I have is, why do you demand they be 'put at [your] mercy'? What's the point of it? Other than to satiate your ego?

Edited March 31, 2010 by Penkala

[KainIIIC]

Look on the bright side everyone. Now ALL of the alliances remaining in this conflict look tremendously better in comparison to Gre. Heck, at this point, what alliance wouldn't?

[Coursca]

So, Ramirus' ego finally comes back to bite him. What a surprise! And to think, I called Ramirus doing something ridiculous like this on the world stage several months ago.

I'd like to, though, focus on the Complaints and Grievances Union here. My understanding is that they have been very patient with TOP/IRON in light of this recent foolishness on the part of The Gremlins. This is highly praise-worthy. If the aggrieved party can be patient and reasonable, I am not seeing why what effectively amounts to a bandwagoning party should be allowed to make any demands -- especially one that is frankly unprecedented and outrageous.

I also must implore my former comrades in IRON and TOP to be patient as well -- I am certain this is being worked on and you guys will finally be able to relax for the first time in months. At least, I hope so...

[Some-Guy]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1270065743' post='2242307']
What right does Ramirus and the Gremlins have to keep everyone in war when the main party involved on their side has already secured terms to end the war? Honestly, I will publicly say, to hell with Ram and the Gremlins, lets leave them on the field of battle. This was C&G's fight and we were here to support them, not Ram's ego. In this situation, Ram and Gremlins should defer to C&G's wishes instead of gumming the whole process up.
[/quote]
[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1270066074' post='2242312']
I fought the Karma war to prevent crap like this, not condone it.
[/quote]

I'm pleased some fella from "the other side" has got the balls to call this crap out.

I guess I owe you a beer AirMe.

I'll make it a crate if you, or any other "Neo-Hegemony" alliance leader, follows some Karma-esque principles and follows up with a DOW on GRA for this base behaviour.

Hell, I'll make it two.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='31 March 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1270063268' post='2242236']
I also don't understand why would an alliance demand unconditional surrender, either. Nobody has ever done that. Nobody has ever accepted that, as far as I know. You have to be thoroughly defeated, beaten to nothing but a bloody pulp to even consider accepting that. Even then, while it might apply in RL, nobody will ever accept that in this game.

Especially not with Grems three offensive wars, all led by a 440 NS guy.
[/quote]

During the Karma war, the first offer to NPO from Karma was for unconditional surrender, with terms that would be given to NPO after all nations were in peace mode and all military improvements had been decommissioned. Naturally, NPO did not agree to comply to these terms. I can't imagine why anyone would, because all you do is to get rid of the ability to fight back at all, while the other side doesn't even agree to stop beating on you. Then, after you've got essentially nothing, they can make up any demands they want. Only a fool would agree to that.


[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1270066074' post='2242312']
I fought the Karma war to prevent crap like this, not condone it.
[/quote]

Ironic, then, that Karma forces made the same offer to NPO during that war.

I'm sure you will recall that NPO was being told that reps were going up for every day that any NPO nations were at peace, and that those reps were in addition to the reps and terms Karma had already decided on - which would only be told to NPO after NPO surrendered.