The Future of Neo-Hegemony ?

[supercoolyellow]

[center][size="6"]The Policy Corner[/size][/center]
[center][img]http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz112/supercoolyellow/treatywebhegemony.jpg[/img]

Key:
[color="#FF0000"]Red - Neo Hegemony[/color]
[color="#0000FF"]blue - Blunity 2.0 or w/e you wish to call them.[/color]
[color="#FFFF00"]Yellow- CnG[/color]
[color="#FF00FF"]Pink - SF[/center][/color]

Don't sweat every alliance inside or outside the circle they are rough circles that i spent 30 seconds making in paint.

Take a look at the web above. Its a little out of date, but I have updated the MCXA and NpO treaty cancellations. Specifically though, take a look at the red oval representing Hegemony. Its by far the largest power sphere that I have placed on this web, but also notice, that is the most isolated. The treaties going between itself and other power spheres are lacking. Why is this important? Its important because it helps explain the sides of the TPF war, and this Cluster !@#$!/ 2nd unjust war / what ever you want to call it(Them). The While SF, CnG, blunity, 2.0 and the alliances in the middle of the web have a lot of treaties among them, ne-hegemony only has a few. this leads to an effect of any war become neo-hegemony vs the world. Any war between the other power sphere will likely be quickly contained by conflicting treaties, and mutual allies who press for peace. This works to even cause wars to be avoided between these sphere.

The one exception to this would be the lack of connection between Blunity 2.0 and SF. NpO vs \m/ would be a prime example of this, but as we all saw peace was quickly sought as the war escalated.

So, what does this mean, that if things remain the same, the alliances in neo-hegemony will most likely be the losers in the third major war in a row (Karma- cluster !#$! - the next big one) In the last half of 2009 we thought we lived in a 4 polariezed world. Now we know we live in a 2 sided treaty web, where the current treaties make for neo-hegemony roughly outnumbered 2-1.

So what should neo-hegemony do about this?

Here are some ideas that I heard from some other neo-hegemony leaders.

1. We're smarter than them so we'll rise again. (7)
2. SF and CnG will start bumping (6)
3. Our alliances are older, so we have more mature members. This will cause us to outgrow them (10)

Those numbers are how dumb the plans are from a scale of one to full retard.

1. If neo-hegemony is really smarter than Super Complaints, why has Neo Hegemony lost two wars in a row?

2. If you think SF and CnG are going to go to war with each other in the next big one, you should talk to CnG and SF members and leaders. They adore each other a lot, and have a quite a bit of unity. I don't think sitting around and just hoping for SF and CnG to fight each other is a good plan. Wishful thinking makes for bad prophecy.

3. Lol, just lol


So what do I think Neo-hegemony should do to avoid a curb stomp? Clever remarks about proxy spying protectorates, and preemptive attacks aside, I think neo-hegemony alliances should reach out and make new friends outside of their power sphere so they aren't so isolated. By reaching out they can de-polarize the treaty web and give themselves a chance of avoiding another neo-hegmoney curb stomp. Perhaps it should be to one or two specific spheres, like blunity 2.0 or the middle of the web that is unclaimed, but as of now they stand with Super Complaints. Sure some old hands may feel uncombfortable reaching out to past enemies, but it beats the heck out of getting rolled again.

There is precedent against reaching out though. Look at what has recently happened to UPN and ADI, where they were forced to become neutral in wars because their treaties conflicted. So one must ask, "how can this be avoided?" I think if there is a collective and concerted effort by Neo-hegemony alliances to reach out then this can be better avoided. What do you think?

So what do you all think Neo-hegemony can do to increase their odds of being on the winning side of the next big one? Should they reach out to alliances outside of their sphere? If so, who?

Edited March 9, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Aurion]

...

Pink, really? >_>

Edit: If I [i]do[/i] have any substantial ideas about Purple et. al, and I'm not saying I do, there's exactly a zero percent chance of me sharing them

Edited March 9, 2010 by Aurion

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Aurion' date='09 March 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1268116612' post='2219022']
...

Pink, really? >_>
[/quote]

Marroon would be a better fitting color for SF for sure, but it didn't work. Maroon looked to much like red.

[flak attack]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='09 March 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1268116398' post='2219019']
[color="#0000FF"]blue - Blunity 2.0 or w/e you wish to call them.[/color]
[/quote]
I prefer BLEU creu

[Monster]

You should comb the wikis and see if anything has changed.

[Alterego]

There is another option, neo-hegemony as you call them could break away from the rest of the world and not participate with anything or anyone outside the grouping. The lack of conflicting treaties would make this an easy move.A new home base [ooc]forum[ooc] could be established and only those alliances inside this grouping be permitted to sign up. All foreign trade, foreign affairs, foreign wars would be restricted (including this place). If our only options are to suck up to the C&G/SF crowd or be beat down again in the next we should just go our own way en masse and leave them to amuse themselves on Bob while we start a new life without them.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Alterego

[Puppet Master]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='09 March 2010 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1268116398' post='2219019']

So what do I think Neo-hegemony should do to avoid a curb stomp? Clever remarks about proxy spying protectorates, and preemptive attacks aside, I think neo-hegemony alliances should reach out and make new friends outside of their power sphere so they aren't so isolated. By reaching out they can de-polarize the treaty web and give themselves a chance of avoiding another neo-hegmoney curb stomp. Perhaps it should be to one or two specific spheres, like blunity 2.0 or the middle of the web that is unclaimed, but as of now they stand with Super Complaints. Sure some old hands may feel uncombfortable reaching out to past enemies, but it beats the heck out of getting rolled again.

There is precedent against reaching out though. Look at what has recently happened to UPN and ADI, where they were forced to become neutral in wars because their treaties conflicted. So one must ask, "how can this be avoided?" I think if there is a collective and concerted effort by Neo-hegemony alliances to reach out then this can be better avoided. What do you think?

So what do you all think Neo-hegemony can do to increase their odds of being on the winning side of the next big one? Should they reach out to alliances outside of their sphere? If so, who?
[/quote]

I personally disagree with the idea that de-polarizing the treaty web would work. Simply because of the fact, that as you said, SF and CNG are too close to each other for this to really work. No change in government or tactics can really pull two hated foes to be friends.

It is my personal opinion that the "Neo-hegemony" (I'll call them Neo from this point onward) should simply back away and stay out of world politics and craziness that goes hand in hand with that for a time. Many of the Neo alliances were not able to get to prekarma levels before this war broke out, and many were still rebuilding from Karma. CnG and friends have had help rebuilding due to reps and were able to get back to a higher level than many of the Neo alliances when this war broke out. What Neo needs to do is back away and simply rebuild and reorganize itself to be more efficient. Neo needs to get itself on the same page be able to more or less "talk" to each other during a war. There seems to be such a lack of communication between allies to a point that many dont even know that their friends were in peace talks until after peace was reached. When you are all fighting for the same cause and fighting the same group of people (more or less) why not talk and plan together?

More or less Neo, take a break and let SF and CnG go do what ever they want. Sit back rebuild, and dont give them a reason to attack.

[Groucho Marx]

\m/, RoK and PC will be running the show in a few month's time.

[Qaianna]

Not quite fond if 'Neo-hegemony' as a name; as has been mentioned many times, they've not exactly been in control of a huge chunk of world power lately.

Isolationism may not be a bad move at this point; I'd actually recommend having it as at least plan B or so, just in case. Why? Who's to say that an outreach will be reciprocated? After all, say what you will, they're still favourite targets in what passes for popular opinion. How much outreach was attempted, and how effective was it in general? (The only info I have is Grand Global Alliance's efforts at the time, which had actual mixed success.)

One enemy to any outreach is, of course, the concept of 'us vs former hegemony' that seems to pervade discourse. Which helps contribute to those target alliances considering how secure they are (and on occasion making poor decisions--not that I see anyone really lamenting this).

[kenny]

The only chance Neo-Hegomony has is to cause a rift between SuperComplaints, anything short of this will just end in another curbstomp, lets look at it shall we.

The idea that they try to intergrate into the new world order might be somewhat possibble for the fringe NeoHeg but the main players will never be accepted and liked by the majority so when the next fight came they would just end up the targets again or if they refused to fight be called out about it.

The isolation idea is by far my favourite and its exactly what the smart thing to do is if it wern't for one small little problem! If NeoHeg didn't give S&C a reason to declare on them they would simply make one up! see the blue ball war for an example of this.

no matter how you want to cut it short of a civil war between S&G there won't be anyone else left to beat on besides NeoHeg.

[Valerius]

A legitimate hegemony needs both a definitive central command, and the means for it to enforce its will on everyone else. The Upper Left corner of the web has neither of these. I suppose if we're to apply the broadest definition of this out-dated term, just to keep it in the many vocabularies of those who seem to know nothing else, the Super-Complaints would fit this bill slightly better, they at least hold one of those criteria ... sort of. But don't worry, I don't particularly agree with that either.

I'd also dispute the sweeping statements you made regarding C&G-SF government relations. They certainly subscribe to the same beliefs at the moment, but personally I don't think 'adore' is the right word to use when talking about long-term political relations.

[Vespassianus]

Please don't write complete !@#$%^&*.

1. ADI wasn't neutral in the Cluster$%&@ war.

2. Why should "Neo-Hegemony" leaders share their real plans with you? Maybe someone answered your dumb questions, but do you expect that they reveal their real plans to you?

[Hymenbreach]

option 2 is not that unlikely. C&G and SF are chock full of lulz or near lulz alliances that will one day find their mouths writing checks, etc. It's happened in the past and it will happen again.

Karma allowed the lunatics free rein in the asylum, it's only a matter of time before they turn on each other.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Hymenbreach

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Alterego' date='09 March 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1268117608' post='2219052']
There is another option, neo-hegemony as you call them could break away from the rest of the world and not participate with anything or anyone outside the grouping. The lack of conflicting treaties would make this an easy move.A new home base [ooc]forum[ooc] could be established and only those alliances inside this grouping be permitted to sign up. All foreign trade, foreign affairs, foreign wars would be restricted (including this place). If our only options are to suck up to the C&G/SF crowd or be beat down again in the next we should just go our own way en masse and leave them to amuse themselves on Bob while we start a new life without them.
[/quote]
I would almost pay just to see how long it lasted...

I know I don't want anyone to suck up to me, but not getting preemptively attacked would be a nice start.

As for isolation of the so called Neo-Hegemony from the rest of the treaty web, there are 2 theories. (in my mind, so it might not be coherent)
The first group are the people who can't function without the NPO and will be immediately treatying them when their terms end. Invicta, Legion, and a few others are so closely identified with NPO that their entire FA mindset is focused on NPO or other people with the same mindset. This is the same way most alliances operate, but people are more distrusting of NPO and co. than most others.

The 2nd theory is that there are some alliances who did have ties to "our" side of the web, but blew them through diplomatic errors. I think TOP's actions have been the clearest example of this, but there are others. (I'm not talking about C&G/SF, but alliances like FOK, Umb, Gre, and a few others who had friends/allies on both sides when this started.

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='09 March 2010 - 07:00 AM' timestamp='1268136294' post='2219163']
option 2 is not that unlikely. C&G and SF are chock full of lulz or near lulz alliances that will one day find their mouths writing checks, etc. It's happened in the past and it will happen again.

Karma allowed the lunatics free rein in the asylum, it's only a matter of time before they turn on each other.
[/quote]
How the heck do you define a lulz alliance then? Because even the funniest alliances in each bloc (I'd say MK and Fark, respectively) are hardly defined by their humor. MK is known for milcom and Fark is known for really nasty blitzes. If you see them as known for something else, that's your own short-sightedness and it explains quite a bit with regards to why there are some shockingly consistent underestimations of our side.

IT'S ALL KARMA'S FAULT! GAHHHH D:

Edited March 9, 2010 by rsoxbronco1

[Lord Brendan]

[quote]Specifically though, take a look at the red oval representing Hegemony. Its by far the largest power sphere that I have placed on this web, but also notice, that is the most isolated.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You're saying its "the largest power sphere" because the circle you arbitrarily drew around it is bigger than the other circles?

Also it is silly of you not to include LEO, the third most powerful bloc in the world.

[Banksy]

Surely the most powerful blocs would be the 'smallest' spheres as that shows the high degree of unity? In addition to that- the pictorial representation is a 2D 'shot' of a 3D map. If you swivel it around and use another angle- "Neo-Hegemony" will look closer together (and C&G will look further apart).

[raasaa]

Neo Hegemony is isolated from BLEU 2.0, CnG and SF only because they have ties were one or two alliances that are known for causing trouble or have been in the thick of old Hegemony. If these ties were severed, then certain Neo Hegemony circle of alliances would be surprised by the numerous treaty offers they receive. So in short, the Neo Hegemony group of alliances got hammered in the last 2 wars and will continue to get hammered, only because of their ties with 1 or 2 retarded troublemakers.

Laying low and rebuilding will work, but at the same time the CnG, SF and BLEU 2.0 will also rebuild and grow stronger. However you spin it, Neo Hegemony will end up with the short end of the stick, unless they pull a mhawk and send a team of spies to each alliance, attempting to destroy it from the inside

IMO, the most logical option would be to do what Karma did against NPO. Build up nations, stockpile nukes, stop breaking !@#$, stop conspiring against other alliances when u know you have !@#$%* opsec, stick together and wait for an opportune moment to strike.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='09 March 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1268137825' post='2219177']
I'm not sure what you mean by this. You're saying its "the largest power sphere" because the circle you arbitrarily drew around it is bigger than the other circles?
[/quote]

No, it has more more alliances and a higher NS than all the others. As I said in the OP the circles are just very rough representations, don't sweat them much.

[Banedon]

I'm not Legion gov or FA so take this with a grain (or an entire shaker) of salt.

We aren't Neo-Hegemony, we're Purple Unity.

Karma War - Legion fought on the side of NPO not because we agreed with them, or thought they were right, but because we had a MDP treaty with them.

Cluster%^&# War - Legion fought at the side of IRON not because we agreed with them, or thought they were right, but because we had a MDoAP with them.

When Legion signs a treaty, we mean it. We are not fair weather friends, and we will uphold our treaties. Between the Coalition of Cowards from Karma, and all the backstabbing and in-fighting from the Cluster%$^& War, I know that standing up for your treaties when they turn sour isn't a big thing anymore. Since most seem to be valued as nothing more but long-winded, glorified NAPS, I'm wondering if half the treaties that currently exist truly mean anything.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Banedon

[shahenshah]

First of all, I'd like to ask how you coined the term 'neo-hegemony'?. No offense, but it makes no sense at all.
Hegemony's basic underlying factor is its military & political dominance.

The alliances you mentioned in red circle were (not all) part of ex-hegemony. Its been an ~year since the fall of ex-hegemony and with this war, there is simply no way how they are any sort of 'hegemony'.

Present military dominance lies with SF and add in CnG for SF-CnG and you have an unchallenged political group at this point in time. One could argue that the political affiliation between SF and CnG, the two remaining blocs that are significant is arguably a neo-hegemony in early stages of formation. You have then say alliances like Sparta, VE, GATO gelling together SG and CnG via treaty web further. However. How those relations act in coming months and their actions will determine whether they're just a dominant group or a 'neo-hegemony' willing to liberally use the power they have.

In no sense of the word the alliances in red are any sort of 'hegemony' and it'll be clear in few weeks/couple months if there is a neo-hegemony or not.
--

Edited March 9, 2010 by shahenshah

[Grumpdogg]

Well personally I feel that NpO is willing to truly put past issues with MCXA to rest, so maybe we could make a start and see what happens?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Alterego' date='09 March 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1268117608' post='2219052']
There is another option, neo-hegemony as you call them could break away from the rest of the world and not participate with anything or anyone outside the grouping. The lack of conflicting treaties would make this an easy move.A new home base [ooc]forum[ooc] could be established and only those alliances inside this grouping be permitted to sign up. All foreign trade, foreign affairs, foreign wars would be restricted (including this place). If our only options are to suck up to the C&G/SF crowd or be beat down again in the next we should just go our own way en masse and leave them to amuse themselves on Bob while we start a new life without them.
[/quote]

tl;dr WE DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU DO THINGS SO WE'RE RUNNING AWAY FROM HOME!

That's pretty pathetic.

[MagicalTrevor]

[quote name='Alterego' date='09 March 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1268117608' post='2219052']
There is another option, neo-hegemony as you call them could break away from the rest of the world and not participate with anything or anyone outside the grouping. The lack of conflicting treaties would make this an easy move.A new home base [ooc]forum[ooc] could be established and only those alliances inside this grouping be permitted to sign up. All foreign trade, foreign affairs, foreign wars would be restricted (including this place). If our only options are to suck up to the C&G/SF crowd or be beat down again in the next we should just go our own way en masse and leave them to amuse themselves on Bob while we start a new life without them.
[/quote]
brb, going to the moon

[janax]

Honestly, I think a complete withdrawal from the world scene would do it. Organize your own trades and tech deals, go to radio silence except for a few people who aren't completely clueless and just don't respond to the other side at all.

With out a target to try and get under the skin of, some parties would either turn on each other or quit the world completely in a fit of rage.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='janax' date='09 March 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1268147810' post='2219283']
Honestly, I think a complete withdrawal from the world scene would do it. Organize your own trades and tech deals, go to radio silence except for a few people who aren't completely clueless and just don't respond to the other side at all.

With out a target to try and get under the skin of, some parties would either turn on each other or quit the world completely in a fit of rage.
[/quote]


Great idea, let's kill all communication on the planet because we lost a few wars.

Sore losers.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse