Imperial Announcement from the New Pacific Order

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='16 February 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1266344771' post='2185843']
at one place you are claiming this is only a cb if we want it to be, and the other you are saying [b]it is [/b]a cb because we aided GOD. Make up your mind already. You are bad at it.
[/quote]
I stayed consistent in both posts. The first is saying it's only a CB if those attacking GOD want it to be (they're not obligated to declare war) and the second post is assuming the NPO was already attacked via the CB as a response to your argument.

[Elegarth]

We all know this is just a move by those evil Pacificans to entangle the web treaty issues even further and with the recent reinstatement of the Ordinance of Order in the Beenoucement we all read a few days ago, cause all major alliances involved in this war to be BOUND BY THEIR TREATIES to declare war on themselves!!!!

But is not going to happen, Pacifica, because we are the Leaders of This Brave New World and we know your schemes...

[silentkiller]

[quote name='deth2munkies' date='16 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1266347457' post='2185922']
I stayed consistent in both posts. The first is saying it's only a CB if those attacking GOD want it to be (they're not obligated to declare war) and the second post is assuming the NPO was already attacked via the CB as a response to your argument.
[/quote]

But we werent attacked by those alliances. We are attacked by rogues and those are the only ones we need protection from, not some invisible enemy that GOD seems to be defending us from. GOD is not fulfilling their agreement per our surrender terms, if you can't see that then God(pun intended) help you.

Edited February 16, 2010 by silentkiller

[Haflinger]

[quote name='AirMe' date='16 February 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1266346554' post='2185893']
I'd be more passive and carry about my business until someone came to me and said something and then leave the ball in GOD's court. Any reasonable person would take the beef up with GOD and not blame NPO for complying with terms. But then again, reason seems to be in short supply these days.
[/quote]
NPO got into the mess they're in now by assuming that rulers on Planet Bob were reasonable.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 February 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1266348156' post='2185943']
NPO got into the mess they're in now by assuming that rulers on Planet Bob were reasonable.
[/quote]

To be fair, part of the reason they're in this mess is because the current rulers of planet bob just blamed NPO for everything wrong in PB, while at the same time giving the NPO's allies, who were as much if not more to blame for the state of things, a pass. They wanted NPO's head on a platter, not IRON's, not GGA's, not Valhalla's, not TPF's (some did though), but NPO's.

NPO paid for everyone.

[Elegarth]

Oh, I wouldn't say we pay for everyone. Pacifica was clearly controlling the heads of all the alliances through several schemes, which included brain control, blackmailing and puppet-masterhood. And more than paying, you already heard Sir Paul: is Pacifica's Investment Plan!

Edited February 16, 2010 by Elegarth

[Letum]

[quote name='deth2munkies' date='16 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1266347457' post='2185922']
The first is saying it's only a CB if those attacking GOD want it to be (they're not obligated to declare war)
[/quote]

A CB does not come into existence based on the will of others. Since there has been wildly differing opinions on the validity of a CB in every single past conflict, that would be a rather illogical way to put it. A CB is a justification, it is the set of circumstances which give cause for *possible* war; it simply exists.

What does depend on the will of other parties is whether they want to make use of it, and whether they are of the opinion that it is a good CB.

It is a fine, but important distinction. Claiming that it is not a cause for war until people want it to be takes the prerogative away from the perpetrator's acts, and lays it on the victims of the act (i.e, the people fighting those we aid). Therefore, it casts the immediate implication that making use of the CB would be unprovoked aggression on their part; thus creating the extention the onus is on said aggressors, and that the NPO would unnecessarily be going out of the way if they made a move like this to prevent that.

That is, of course, patently false. The NPO is the one making these actions, even if they are under duress. Aiding the combatant is undeniably a provocation, and whilst the circumstances would make any DoW unfair and disproportionate, it would not be unprovoked. Given that the NPO is used to such treatment, we would be downright insane not to attempt to alleviate this in some manner.

Furthermore, this topic has the important task of assuaging not just the decision makers, but the assorted opinions of those being wronged (or of third parties). If I were an average 10k NpO nation, and suddenly saw my opponent have his slots filled with aid or tech by the Pacific, I would have a considerable amount of anger. A pro-active approach to assuaging such feelings works much, much better than a re-active one, as the latter invariably leaves most of the individuals involved alone to reach their own conclusions, which will probably be self-reinforcingly negative. Believe me, I know first hand what I am talking about. We might be hated by many, but the New Pacific Order will do what it can to explain ourselves and make people feel better.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Letum

[Qazzian]

[quote name='AirMe' date='16 February 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1266346554' post='2185893']
[u]Any reasonable person[/u] would take the beef up with GOD and [u]not blame NPO[/u] for complying with terms.
[/quote]

Two parts: The first, you covered yourself: Reason is lacking.

The second: Since when do people not blame the NPO? If aid suddenly went to a group at war, people would raise hell on the OWF about it, and then the leadership of the NPO would be trying to put out an ever growing fire since most people (as shown by how many times the exact same argument comes up in a thread) don't read every page of the thread. Most skim the OP and then react based on that. If the OP is from someone blasting the NPO for an act of war, then that's where the conversation is going to keep coming back to. If it's the NPO leadership saying "Look, here's the deal", then that's the first thing people read, and the information gets out right away.

Easier to stay ahead than play catchup.

*edited for clarity*

Edited February 16, 2010 by Qazzian

[NoFish]

Redacted until further clarification.

Edited February 16, 2010 by NoFish

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='16 February 2010 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1266321305' post='2185427']
GOD as always Planet Bobs crapfest of an alliance. To stupid to figure out not only are they making NPO look good but, making GOD look like a pathetic beaten alliance on its knees begging for scraps to survive. If your this bad off GOD just surrender already.
[/quote]

Actually the likes of you and others who are trying to wage a transparent as glass PR war against GOD in this announcement are who make this place a complete crapfest. It is entirely within GOD's right to continue an agreement NPO signed on. The alliances that fought NPO also have an obligation to protect them in case someone considers this an act of war against NPO. I certainly hope the amount of aid NPO is sending isn't considered an act of war by those fighting GOD (and let's be honest, everyone's got their hands full enough as is).

[silentkiller]

From what I know G15 gave us permission to suspend reps during TPF war as well. Although that could be wrong.

Edit: nvm

[quote]Actually the likes of you and others who are trying to wage a transparent as glass PR war against GOD in this announcement are who make this place a complete crapfest. It is entirely within GOD's right to continue an agreement NPO signed on. [b]The alliances that fought NPO also have an obligation to protect them in case someone considers this an act of war against NPO[/b]. I certainly hope the amount of aid NPO is sending isn't considered an act of war by those fighting GOD (and let's be honest, everyone's got their hands full enough as is).[/quote]

I think at this point we do not expect a lot of protection from G15 against rogues and whatnot due to the global conflict. But seeing as GOD wants one part of the surrender terms to continue they should also be ready to continue the protection part of the surrender terms, and I am still seeing no wars from GOD against the 37k ns nation.

Edited February 16, 2010 by silentkiller

[Jasmines Jewels]

[quote name='Jgoods45' date='16 February 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1266335201' post='2185624']How Cute.

Jasmine [/quote]

This is the only post so far with me quoting and posting on. This 's for you Jgoods.

I personally will be quite happy to be rid of paying GOD shortly. I find no reason for them to care either way if we had to pay or not simply due to the fact that they've been lazy with this whole ordeal. They do not cover our protection clause and don't even make reps lists or follow up on anything. The only thing worse is that they aren't the only ones.

It's of my opinion that if a signatory isn't interested in protecting our nations or even following their own reps then perhaps they feel those owed to them are fulfilled. It cannot be because no one can get a hold of myself about reps. It is very opportunistic that you signed into our terms but now don't want to play babysitter.

I do want to commend the gov that we spoke with this last week with their quick responses and also the less than a handful signatories who live up to their agreement.

[Lord Brendan]

You know it's a weird situation when I start agreeing with Ivan Moldavi.

It was probably worth clarifying that NPO was going to continue sending reparations to GOD, but I don't see where the debate came from after that. The Instrument of Surrender didn't mention anything about not sending reparations if there's a major war, and the idea that doing so is a "norm" is a load of crap - I can't recall anytime the situation has ever come up, except of course GPA reps to NPO being required to continue.

Nothing interesting to see, really. Although NpO declaring war on NPO because of this would be the icing on the cherry on the icing on this mammoth cake of a war.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Bilrow]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='16 February 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1266354716' post='2186141']
I think at this point we do not expect a lot of protection from G15 against rogues and whatnot due to the global conflict. But seeing as GOD wants one part of the surrender terms to continue they should also be ready to continue the protection part of the surrender terms, and I am still seeing no wars from GOD against the 37k ns nation.
[/quote]


Don't hold your breath on GOD helping with protection.

[NoFish]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' date='16 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1266355003' post='2186152']
This is the only post so far with me quoting and posting on. This 's for you Jgoods.

I personally will be quite happy to be rid of paying GOD shortly. I find no reason for them to care either way if we had to pay or not simply due to the fact that they've been lazy with this whole ordeal. They do not cover our protection clause and don't even make reps lists or follow up on anything. The only thing worse is that they aren't the only ones.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone on our end was aware that you lacked reparations targets. GOD recently got a new Lord of Internal Affairs (whose duty such a list would be) and it's possible that there has been some confusion over this matter. I'll bring it up with him tonight.

It's a shame we couldn't have been informed via more polite channels than OWF accusations.

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='NoFish' date='16 February 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1266356016' post='2186200']
I don't think anyone on our end was aware that you lacked reparations targets. GOD recently got a new Lord of Internal Affairs (whose duty such a list would be) and it's possible that there has been some confusion over this matter. I'll bring it up with him tonight.[/quote]Jasmine can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe this has not been a short-term problem with ya'll.

Just sayin'.

Edited February 16, 2010 by F15pilotX

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='16 February 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1266354685' post='2186140']
Actually the likes of you and others who are trying to wage a transparent as glass PR war against GOD in this announcement are who make this place a complete crapfest. It is entirely within GOD's right to continue an agreement NPO signed on. The alliances that fought NPO also have an obligation to protect them in case someone considers this an act of war against NPO. I certainly hope the amount of aid NPO is sending isn't considered an act of war by those fighting GOD (and let's be honest, everyone's got their hands full enough as is).
[/quote]

They have the right, yes. Does that make in any less foolish or desperate? No. The fact they alone made this demand shows just how either close to complete collapse they are or how completely out of touch they are with all with the rest of Planet Bob. To compound that stupidity most of that aid will be taken by those at war with GOD.

[Jasmines Jewels]

[quote name='NoFish' date='16 February 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1266356016' post='2186200']I don't think anyone on our end was aware that you lacked reparations targets. GOD recently got a new Lord of Internal Affairs (whose duty such a list would be) and it's possible that there has been some confusion over this matter. I'll bring it up with him tonight.

It's a shame we couldn't have been informed via more polite channels than OWF accusations.[/quote]
I wasn't referencing the lack of targets. If you read my post you'll see I was speaking on the lack of interest in your reps process and protection to our nations. It also seems that the OWF is about the only way to get a hold of anyone minus the handful that always respond via IRC.

It would be much appreciated to speak with someone since your reps will be finished before the end of this month. Be sure they have numbers ready on hand because my records are pristine.

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='16 February 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1266356536' post='2186218']Jasmine can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe this has not been a short-term problem with ya'll.

Just sayin'.[/quote]
The problems I run into are with a few alliances and not just GOD to be fair. Still doesn't make me any less happy to be rid of paying those who cannot seem to make any effort themselves.

[Facade]

I would be interested in seeing someone surrendering to an alliance they aren't fighting.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' date='16 February 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1266357962' post='2186281']
The problems I run into are with a few alliances and not just GOD to be fair. Still doesn't make me any less happy to be rid of paying those who cannot seem to make any effort themselves.
[/quote]
If Azaghul were here, he'd laugh real hard at this...I should really pass it on to him.

(For those who don't know, Azaghul was the Lord High Treasurer for the MK when they were paying NPO reps, getting targets was like pulling teeth.)

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='16 February 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1266356882' post='2186232']
They have the right, yes. Does that make in any less foolish or desperate? No. The fact they alone made this demand shows just how either close to complete collapse they are or how completely out of touch they are with all with the rest of Planet Bob. To compound that stupidity most of that aid will be taken by those at war with GOD.
[/quote]

It's more them wanting to continue the contractual agreement NPO signed. NPO was requesting something and GOD simply denied it. It was not a demand in that they somehow tried to change something, simply keeping the agreement currently as is. Also, if you think GOD's enemies will take those reps from them in war, you should be more happy than complaining about it on here.

[Merrie Melodies]

Its to bad this announcement had to be made. It should be common sense that reps are halted during a time of war.
A great many times nations have been decimated for aiding another nation at war. Further to this point, a great many leadfers have stated that the outcome of this war is still far from certain, in what way does NPO deserve further punishment if the G15 side loses this war and the victors turn on NPO foir aiding their enemies?

TBH, once everyone got their wars on, NPO should have been pardoned with the understanding they could not engage on either side and could not militarize beyond their protection requirements.

Those taking NPO reps are now going to be in the position of using NPO to give resources for a war they were in no way shape or form involved in.

Everyone likes to throw the word dipolmacy around, well maybe nows the time to use some of it, after this war both sides are gooing to be smoking craters and then there is NPO, I'll be honest and say I'd like to be on thier good side and if not that at least not on their radar.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Lord of the Port]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='17 February 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1266361433' post='2186389']
It's more them wanting to continue the contractual agreement NPO signed.[/quote]
There is also a little clause about protection against rogues. I do not see GOD attacking any of these targets:
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=369439]TheNefarius of Pugnacitas. 3,013.742 NS[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=361994]Duffman795 of Duffman795. 2,305.909 NS[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=95803]Emperor Rick of Empire of Arizona. 37,368.305 NS[/url]

As you can [url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Global+Order+of+Darkness&input1=]see[/url], GOD has nations in that range.

As you can see [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=63887]here[/url], GOD's signature is underneath that instrument of surrender. Take note of this clause:
[quote]VIII. The New Pacific Order will be under the protection of the signatories of this document for the duration of surrender terms.[/quote]

I do not see the continuation of the contractual agreement GOD signed.

[NoFish]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' date='16 February 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1266357962' post='2186281']
I wasn't referencing the lack of targets. If you read my post you'll see I was speaking on the lack of interest in your reps process and protection to our nations. It also seems that the OWF is about the only way to get a hold of anyone minus the handful that always respond via IRC.
[/quote]
I am always on IRC, idling or otherwise, and have so far never received contact from someone from NPO regarding any issue. I assume this is because you have had no trouble getting in touch with Xiphosis or Big_Z about any matters that may concern us.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='16 February 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1266362411' post='2186410']
Its to bad this announcement had to be made. It should be common sense that reps are halted during a time of war.
A great many times nations have been decimated for aiding another nation at war. Further to this point, a great many leaders have stated that the outcome of this war is still far from certain, in what way does NPO deserve further punishment if the G15 side loses this war and the victors turn on NPO for aiding their enemies?

TBH, once everyone got their wars on, NPO should have been pardoned with the understanding they could not engage on either side and could not militarize beyond their protection requirements.

Those taking NPO reps are now going to be in the position of using NPO to give resources for a war they were in no way shape or form involved in.

Everyone likes to throw the word diplomacy around, well maybe now's the time to use some of it, after this war both sides are going to be smoking craters and then there is NPO, I'll be honest and say I'd like to be on their good side and if not that at least not on their radar.
[/quote]

Only now, piggy, do you see so clearly what I've been saying all along.

Well written...though I did correct a bit of spelling.