So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[Italgria]

There you go. I volunteered people to make up the milcom though didn't want to take on the responsibility myself, and left it to others who were more competent than I was.

Apparently watchman and Italgria find it funny when I've accumulated more casualties than they have together. As if watchman has done anything of note, other than ticking off key alliances such as Polaris and making the PR of alliances he left like NADC exponentially better just by the fact of him leaving.

Did you just realize you hugely contradicted yourself ? You say you were a big part in the entire organization and suddenly you say you didnt want to take the responsibility yourself. As I said, I was there. But whatever this is my last post as I dont want to derail a for once somewhat interesting discussion.

[LiquidMercury]

Fair enough. The only implied "assumption" that I made in the OP (that could be construed as one, anyway) was concerning TOP's involvement and, as I said to Liquid Mercury, I was being sarcastic and having some fun. If there's something else out there I'm missing feel free to contact me privately.

I think the issue at hand is that this whole series of events are very subjective depending on the side you were on or the side you most closely associate yourself with.

CB validity, strategy of PM, delayed entrance, all these things are subjective in their viability. Unfortunately, going round and round will not get any side to really change their mind so it still deteriorates into a level of "no u." While this thread has allowed for more subjective and objective thoughts to come out, in the end really all anyone can do is agree to disagree. I believe I have remained objective enough that I can agree with all parties involved and I can also disagree with all parties involved depending on the subject matter. Unfortunately, there will be no great conclusion to this, no defined statements that all will accept and agree upon. It is for this reason that all we can merely do is discuss the aspects of it all in an objective frame of mind. The degree of one's intelligence is reflected by the number of conflicting arguments and attitudes that one can bring to bear on the same topic.

[HalfEmpty]

You raise an interesting point. By essentially "refusing flank" and placing half (or a bit over half) of their alliances into PM, Athens and Rok presented a rather smaller target. Compound that with traditional "assault" alliances like Valhalla being in what amounted to reserve, and I'm not shocked whatsoever in the small number of DoWs in the initial phases. Had White Peace not happened when it did, you would have seen a radical escalation of the conflict in the next couple of days.

OOC: The timing of the attack on TPF suggests that this was intended to be a "holiday raid", one of those attacks that used to take place when players where sitting at home bored and looking for a short brawl before heading back to school/work/etc. However, it was rather clearly seen by many as an opportunity for another Great War and the threads in the OWF pretty much reflect that. Therefore, while it is believable to me (though I'm not 100% convinced) that there was no "grander plan" in progress on the part of Athens & Co., obviously things were rapidly spinning in another direction and when the opportunity to bail out by giving White Peace presented itself, they went for it. Still, I saw a dress rehearsal, not a one time thing...so in a sense, this ain't over yet, it is just the end of Act I.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in these 2 grafs. I mean for gawds sake Athens can't pour piss our of their boots even when Mom left the instructions on the heel.

[Balkan Banania]

Those attacking TPF walked away with their pound of flesh and nothing lost.

I disagree on this, they lost political capital. Some of these alliances actually consumed most of the political capital they won during the Karma war for no actual gain during the last months. Personally I would vote credibility over infra anytime in this game.

[AirMe]

You had all your potential threats lined up against you in a position where you had the upper hand and could deal with a source of potential trouble for you for a long time and have great fun with it, but your choice was to prove to two alliances how this wasn't a ploy to get them.

Does it really matter that it is a ploy or not at that point?

I understand that it is always a better strategy to try to befriend then go into a cycle of war and peace with somebody, but really at what point you say $%&@ it this will happen anyway and just go for it if you are ahead?

Dunno AirMe, seems over confident to me.

Glass half empty or half full. Either way, we both agree on the matter that there were no winners here.

I am always over confident. I deal with it better than most Also, we aren't as evil as you used to be And I mean that as a compliment. The Karma war was fought for change in the way the game was, for lack of a better term, "run."

I had a conversation with a BAPS member on New Years where they claimed that the people on top now were worse than when the NPO ran things and I think that was proven false by the way the conflict ended.

This is a new time in CN. And I hope never to return to the 2007 - mid 2009 times again.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I disagree on this, they lost political capital.

We did? How, exactly? One may argue that the other side lost a bit as well... At least some of the parties involved

Personally I would vote credibility over infra anytime in this game.

That's rich

[Balkan Banania]

We did? How, exactly? One may argue that the other side lost a bit as well... At least some of the parties involved

You started a war, based on what you advocate to be a valid CB and you decided to withdrawn from the said war the time that the opposition was formed. This is the conclusion that can be drawn based solely on the OWF. In short you started a job that you couldn’t finish. Take into consideration that for Athens this wasn’t the first time and maybe you can see what I meant.

Just for clarity, I am not saying that in reality things are that simple, I am just describing the picture I got just from lurking in the OWF. It is obvious that this is my opinion thus subjective and as the outcome of this incidence is still undecided you can support the opposite and be as valid as I am (maybe more as I take you are more informed than me).

Concerning the comment about credibility and infra, I was just commenting a post about the fact that TPF took a week long beating. I have the impression that TPF has their credibility intact, at least among their allies, so I think they actually didn't lose anything, as infra don't mean that much now. That’s all

[Ogaden]

It was pretty much inevitable that the TPF side would declare victory no matter what happened.

Congratulations on your glorious victory, TPF.

Edited January 6, 2010 by James Dahl

[Branimir]

Also, we aren't as evil as you used to be

Has nothing to do with being evil, or not.

I had a conversation with a BAPS member on New Years where they claimed that the people on top now were worse than when the NPO ran things and I think that was proven false by the way the conflict ended.

You say conflict ended, I say postponed.

Things look the same to me, tbh, just some difference in style which comes from difference in personality of those on top, now and before.

Been a pleasure all. I go back to my hibernation. Until some other drama (hopefully better sooner then later), cheers.

[astronaut jones]

We did? How, exactly? One may argue that the other side lost a bit as well... At least some of the parties involved

That's rich

You can't lose that which you didn't have in the first place. Neither side had any political capital, they could have won some, but neither side came out victorious by any stretch of the imagination, even JWConner's.

What you have is a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe UjP, and a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe Continuum, and neither side knows what the $%&@ they're doing right now. They'll figure it out eventually, but right now neither side has got a damned clue.[edit:] And before anyone jumps on me for that comment, the fact that neither side has got a damned clue right now is making things interesting, at least from a political standpoint, so it's not actually a bad thing.

Edited January 6, 2010 by astronaut jones

[Yggdrazil]

This is pure conjecture but I believe the key to why it progressed and ended as it did is the NpO.It is not hard to imagine why of all the declarations from the CC were issued and none was declared against ROK.Then if SF declared on Iron that would have brought in NSO which was also a treaty partner of NpO.Thus it would be the one who would have to counter the other that would bring NpO in.NpO was the wild card in the deck and each folded their hand rather than call not knowing who held the wild card.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Yggdrazil

[Azhrei]

Nice post. Athens must be very happy with you.

It's always Athens, isn't it? Big, bad Athens who tells everyone else what to do.

[Bjornoya]

The Coincidence Coalition

Why TOP's flag? Well, Liquid Mercury was sort of running the military side of things. But you weren't involved. Oh no, certainly not.

With the exceptions of Zenith and The Order Of Light, your showing was utterly and completely pathetic. TPF called on you within twenty-four hours of being attacked. Your response: you sat on your defensive obligations and did nothing except whine. When you were called to ask you tried to act cryptic and then whined some more. When you actually got off your collective rear ends and said you were going to do something you launched twenty-four offensive wars. Admin help me the day your coalition is the thing I'm relying on to back me up. I'd rather look to The German Empire for support and I'd be more likely to get it. You talked big, you strutted and sang your battle songs but when it came time to actually getting into line you all had something better to do. Like whine. And make OOC attacks (Ayrrie, this is the one time I've ever felt bad for you). And whine some more. And then show up late. Well done, lads, well done.

NEW, you should be especially ashamed. Not only did you completely wimp out after mhawk went to bat for you in these forums (right or wrong, he did take a stand) but you then started your usual raiding nonsense up as soon as the chance arose. Something about spots on a cheetah?

On the contrary considering the number of members within the coalition a week's time wasn't as bad as it could have been.

I'm not saying I know much but from my humble perspective TPF was attacked by some heavy alliances. Taking a Starcraft reference TPF was a lone zergling. Those closest to TPF saw said zergling being destroyed, the typical AI response would be to attack the hostile on sight. This, as we should know would lead to the zerglings being massacred one by one. I am sure each of TPF's allies was fully aware what would happen if they had gone in immediately, and if they had I am sure this war would have escalated further as the allies of Athens and Rok would have entered the war immediately to crush the lone zerglings.

Instead the zerglings spent their time, (ooc: waiting to talk to as many involved members on irc) amassed, and (as also I'm sure) helped in some way secure white peace before the war escalated or TPF got crushed further.

The outcome of this conflict exposed the weakness of relying on lots of small alliances to come to your aid in a crisis. I do believe however this skirmish has laid groundworks for creating a much faster functioning zergling horde in the future.

For this the members of the CC were not losers but benefactors of this conflict.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

For this the members of the CC excluding TPF were not losers but benefactors of this conflict.

Fixed that for you.

[Goose]

I disagree on this, they lost political capital. Some of these alliances actually consumed most of the political capital they won during the Karma war for no actual gain during the last months. Personally I would vote credibility over infra anytime in this game.

I don't see it that way. Most likely, any political capital lost was only a worsening of opinions that were already negative.

You started a war, based on what you advocate to be a valid CB and you decided to withdrawn from the said war the time that the opposition was formed. This is the conclusion that can be drawn based solely on the OWF. In short you started a job that you couldn’t finish. Take into consideration that for Athens this wasn’t the first time and maybe you can see what I meant.

Just for clarity, I am not saying that in reality things are that simple, I am just describing the picture I got just from lurking in the OWF. It is obvious that this is my opinion thus subjective and as the outcome of this incidence is still undecided you can support the opposite and be as valid as I am (maybe more as I take you are more informed than me).

Concerning the comment about credibility and infra, I was just commenting a post about the fact that TPF took a week long beating. I have the impression that TPF has their credibility intact, at least among their allies, so I think they actually didn't lose anything, as infra don't mean that much now. That’s all

A job that couldn't be finished? I'm pretty certain that it was figured that CC would form and counter within 24-48 hours, not a whole week. Yes, it would have been a less organized CC if the counter had come more quickly, but the sides were fairly well set. The counter from CC was expected and not backed down to from the very start. After a week of beating on TPF, it got to the point that enough damage was done to them that facing CC to continue the beating was a diminishing return. And, decided that further escalation wasn't worth beating a nearly dead horse some more.

On the contrary considering the number of members within the coalition a week's time wasn't as bad as it could have been.

I'm not saying I know much but from my humble perspective TPF was attacked by some heavy alliances. Taking a Starcraft reference TPF was a lone zergling. Those closest to TPF saw said zergling being destroyed, the typical AI response would be to attack the hostile on sight. This, as we should know would lead to the zerglings being massacred one by one. I am sure each of TPF's allies was fully aware what would happen if they had gone in immediately, and if they had I am sure this war would have escalated further as the allies of Athens and Rok would have entered the war immediately to crush the lone zerglings.

Instead the zerglings spent their time, (ooc: waiting to talk to as many involved members on irc) amassed, and (as also I'm sure) helped in some way secure white peace before the war escalated or TPF got crushed further.

The outcome of this conflict exposed the weakness of relying on lots of small alliances to come to your aid in a crisis. I do believe however this skirmish has laid groundworks for creating a much faster functioning zergling horde in the future.

For this the members of the CC were not losers but benefactors of this conflict.

I can't be bothered to count, but I believe that Karma had more alliances coordinated in a far shorter period of time. I believe the heads up and beginning formation of Karma started about 72 hours ahead of their counter on NPO's aggression, and 24 hours after the actual aggression. I can't say for certain that some extra time wasn't needed, but an entire week to organize a response seems unreasonably long to me.

I still find white peace to be a wholly laughable victory for CC. Yes, better than letting TPF get pounded on for another week, but hardly living up to even half of what the rhetoric demanded/claimed.

I think you've underestimated some of the players in CC. TOOL and IRON/TOP are both huge behemoths. More akin to Ultralisks rather than 'lings. They could have easily gone in and started tearing things up while the smaller alliances making up CC were organized to deal with the next step of escalation.

[Nizzle]

I find it laughable all of you are still discussing the delayed entrance of CC into the affair.

[Ketther]

Well, finally some interesting reading with a very nice OP.

That aside, I'd like an answer to something that rubs me since this whole thing started.

I always thought that power comes packing with two interesting stones tied to its feet : Responsibility and accountability (If I messed up the words, consider this bit of text an apology). Now I admit I am pretty new to ruling a nation but what I see around is mostly a lack of those two stones when alliance leaders have thier plans blowing up in their own faces.

What I want to say is this (this will apply only to mhawk, because frankly my experience doesn't allow me to make character judgments on most of the people around - except Warduck): If you are caught with your pants down, why don't you have the guts to say "Yes, it was dumb. Ok, you found out. Dude, I did it and it has NOTHING to do with the rest of my alliance. It was a long time ago, I was young and reckless, so if you want to dish some hurting... do it to me, and me alone."

You might say that this is dumb, but ZI'ing a nation will never mean the same as losing 1 million NS across the entire alliance. Also, it would negate the whole point of the war AND help you (if your enemies decide it would be fine to still roll your alliance) get so much support from outside your treaty web that your attackers might be sent home with their heads spinning. Another interesting side effect is that it would make you pretty much a hero inside your alliance so building your nation back might not be that hard.

Where is the harm in losing an argument while keeping your self respect and being an honourable leader?

[Nobody Expects]

I am always over confident. I deal with it better than most Also, we aren't as evil as you used to be And I mean that as a compliment. The Karma war was fought for change in the way the game was, for lack of a better term, "run."

I had a conversation with a BAPS member on New Years where they claimed that the people on top now were worse than when the NPO ran things and I think that was proven false by the way the conflict ended.

This is a new time in CN. And I hope never to return to the 2007 - mid 2009 times again.

Things are exactly the same, it wasn't enough of a curbstomp for ye brave warriors, so you'll wait for a better opportunity. Altruistic this peace wasn't................

[shahenshah]

Nice OP, I do not agree with some of your opinions, anyway.

Some people have talked about the talks. The diplomacy went from no diplomacy at all to demands of conditional white peace, i.e. 2 weeks of war and admission of guilt, the conditions are rejected by TPF. TPF's demand was unconditional and immediate white peace and all sides agreed mutually to unconditional end of hostilities and we have peace in our time.

Who won? Who lost? Honestly, both sides can claim they won and others lost. Both sides will dispute each other's claim simply because there was no clear victory for either side. IMO, SC was in position of strength due to its NS advantage.

Apart from the fighting aspect, the drama was amazing. I'm loving the timings of our announcements.

Edited January 6, 2010 by shahenshah

[JWConner]

You can't lose that which you didn't have in the first place. Neither side had any political capital, they could have won some, but neither side came out victorious by any stretch of the imagination, even JWConner's.

What you have is a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe UjP, and a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe Continuum, and neither side knows what the $%&@ they're doing right now. They'll figure it out eventually, but right now neither side has got a damned clue.[edit:] And before anyone jumps on me for that comment, the fact that neither side has got a damned clue right now is making things interesting, at least from a political standpoint, so it's not actually a bad thing.

Awwww, you said my name. Let me reciprocate your wonderful gift...

With the exception of using my imagination as a symbol of pretense, *shockingly* I agree with astronaut jones. Neither side really won or lost here. It was a stalemate. For reasons unbeknownst to the majority of us, Supercomplaints/Supergrievances gave in after 6 days of fighting. Was it a mere coincidence it happened soon after TPF's allies declared on their behalf? Who knows. But, all in all, the overall goal for TPF was achieved...white peace without any admissions or reparations. The only way it is seen as a victory for the SC/SG side is because they didn't reap any punishment for their actions. But hey, as we learned a few months ago, Karma's a *$%!@, no?

[Augustus Autumn]

I think the issue at hand is that this whole series of events are very subjective depending on the side you were on or the side you most closely associate yourself with.

CB validity, strategy of PM, delayed entrance, all these things are subjective in their viability. Unfortunately, going round and round will not get any side to really change their mind so it still deteriorates into a level of "no u." While this thread has allowed for more subjective and objective thoughts to come out, in the end really all anyone can do is agree to disagree. I believe I have remained objective enough that I can agree with all parties involved and I can also disagree with all parties involved depending on the subject matter. Unfortunately, there will be no great conclusion to this, no defined statements that all will accept and agree upon. It is for this reason that all we can merely do is discuss the aspects of it all in an objective frame of mind. The degree of one's intelligence is reflected by the number of conflicting arguments and attitudes that one can bring to bear on the same topic.

Sadly, I think you're correct. I've found a lot of the input offered here educational from both sides, barring the sniping and usual immaturity you see from several national rulers who inhabit these forums who don't offer to the discourse but rather seek to take cheap shots. While hashing over the past is always interesting, it is my hope that maybe in the future people will remember what was raised here and take it as a lesson for future behavior.

To you, Liquid Mercury, again I'll offer my thanks considering your patience with this issue as well as explaining your motives and involvement. While I don't think that anyone can consider the coalition you led to be a success considering it was a wartime coalition that did not, in fact, engage in a real shooting war I will concede that it is impressive any time you can get more than three alliances to actually agree on anything and coordinate their efforts. I would offer that one of the major successes the previous coalition had over this one was a level of transparency concerning what was going on as well as not relying on blustering from many line members to get the rest of the 'verse hyped up for delivery which never arrived. Going forward perhaps this will be remembered, perhaps not.

I disagree on this, they lost political capital. Some of these alliances actually consumed most of the political capital they won during the Karma war for no actual gain during the last months. Personally I would vote credibility over infra anytime in this game.

Absolutely agreed, more so for Athens than anyone else. When you balance the destruction of a good chunk of TPF's strength against the loss of a previously-solid MDoAP partner in M*A*S*H as well as the public relations beating taken over that I would hazard the second outweighs the first. Also, the perceived transformation from a force for justice into a force for conflict can be very damning.

This is a new time in CN. And I hope never to return to the 2007 - mid 2009 times again.

I would disagree largely with the "new time" bit of this. Yes, the current world order is now being dictated by different parties but I would hazard that with such power comes a certainly level of expected responsibility which is not apparent. It's one thing to struggle to the top as many alliances previously had to - it's another to inherit the top because those alliances have been kicked down. Certainly you can argue that it all comes down to numbers and that, at the end of the day, it's about who has the biggest number of national flags under their belt but there's a certain level of conduct which is important too. For better or worse, how you look is just as important as how strong you are. If you don't believe me I would recommend reviewing the instances of FAN and Vox Populi as well as Pacifica.

It was pretty much inevitable that the TPF side would declare victory no matter what happened.

Congratulations on your glorious victory, TPF.

Mr. Dahl, a very perceptive statement from you.

Been a pleasure all. I go back to my hibernation. Until some other drama (hopefully better sooner then later), cheers.

Branimir, as always, a pleasure. Thank you for your contributions - we'll have to do this again sometime.

It's always Athens, isn't it? Big, bad Athens who tells everyone else what to do.

Actually, yes. Since the end of the Karma War Londo et al have been involved in three (or four) major incidents which left them looking very foolish, attempting to act in the fashion of old Pacifica without the actual ability to play to the nuances of public behavior. For a long time Athens was the poor beaten child of the 'verse, pounded down by Pacifica and always hankering for revenge. Then they got their revenge, blew up to some Admin-awful size and started swinging their weight around like it was going out of style. In many ways Athens has never escaped their self-imposed prison where they are the beaten child, always relying on others to say "Oh, no, it's ok - you've had a rough time, we understand" instead of holding them accountable. When it came time to cancel the TSI and M*A*S*H treaties they relied on this and it backfired when they got caught lying. When they raided the Knights of Ni! and tried to play it off like a tech raid it backfired because everyone knew they were full of it.

It's not that Athens is telling everyone what to do - it's that they're trying to tell everyone what to do and they're failing so badly at it. That's why they've become a constant joke and why Bilrow is so very effective and getting y'all bent.

[Augustus Autumn]

On the contrary considering the number of members within the coalition a week's time wasn't as bad as it could have been.

No, it could have been worse. That doesn't mean it wasn't a laughable screw up.

I'm not saying I know much but from my humble perspective TPF was attacked by some heavy alliances. Taking a Starcraft reference TPF was a lone zergling. Those closest to TPF saw said zergling being destroyed, the typical AI response would be to attack the hostile on sight. This, as we should know would lead to the zerglings being massacred one by one. I am sure each of TPF's allies was fully aware what would happen if they had gone in immediately, and if they had I am sure this war would have escalated further as the allies of Athens and Rok would have entered the war immediately to crush the lone zerglings.

Instead the zerglings spent their time, (ooc: waiting to talk to as many involved members on irc) amassed, and (as also I'm sure) helped in some way secure white peace before the war escalated or TPF got crushed further.

If that is indeed the case and the lesson has been observed then I would be truly pleased. That is, after all, the point here - education. As for the securing of white peace and whatnot I'll again have to direct you to Hoo's comments on the matter - he's been consistent on that point and, while I always question these things, his credibility in my experience is pretty decent.

The outcome of this conflict exposed the weakness of relying on lots of small alliances to come to your aid in a crisis. I do believe however this skirmish has laid groundworks for creating a much faster functioning zergling horde in the future.

For this the members of the CC were not losers but benefactors of this conflict.

Very perceptive. Would you agree that this is effectively the end result of TPF's reliance on now-defunct organizations like the Overlord's Protectorate Pact?

Well, finally some interesting reading with a very nice OP.

Thank you, Ketther.

Where is the harm in losing an argument while keeping your self respect and being an honourable leader?

Short answer - people want to be liked all the time by everyone and they want to always project the way they view themselves to others. Also, national rulers generally don't have the fortitude or courage to actually take the chance that they might be appreciated for being honest or forthright, hence the nasty sniping which goes on in places like this discussion thread (Alterego, TheBigBad, Watchman, this is directed at you).

Any major analysis I do on the leadership of TPF (per your example) will come across as a massive character attack (since people don't like being criticized and thus many prayers will be directed to Admin asking for me to be smote). If you're actually interested in my opinion on this matter then feel free to contact me privately either via these forums or via IRC.

Nice OP, I do not agree with some of your opinions, anyway.

Thank you for being forthright, shahenshah.

Some people have talked about the talks. The diplomacy went from no diplomacy at all to demands of conditional white peace, i.e. 2 weeks of war and admission of guilt, the conditions are rejected by TPF. TPF's demand was unconditional and immediate white peace and all sides agreed mutually to unconditional end of hostilities and we have peace in our time.

Who won? Who lost? Honestly, both sides can claim they won and others lost. Both sides will dispute each other's claim simply because there was no clear victory for either side. IMO, SC was in position of strength due to its NS advantage.

Apart from the fighting aspect, the drama was amazing. I'm loving the timings of our announcements.

I actually don't see how we're disagreeing here aside from the bit where I don't think anybody won.

[HellAngel]

You can't lose that which you didn't have in the first place. Neither side had any political capital, they could have won some, but neither side came out victorious by any stretch of the imagination, even JWConner's.

What you have is a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe UjP, and a bunch of alliances behaving and acting like a wannabe Continuum, and neither side knows what the $%&@ they're doing right now. They'll figure it out eventually, but right now neither side has got a damned clue.[edit:] And before anyone jumps on me for that comment, the fact that neither side has got a damned clue right now is making things interesting, at least from a political standpoint, so it's not actually a bad thing.

Wow i actually agree with you. Makes me think i might be wrong.

[JWConner]

Wow i actually agree with you. Makes me think i might be wrong.

Haha, that was my first reaction as well...

[astronaut jones]

Wow i actually agree with you. Makes me think i might be wrong.

Give me a little credit, more often than not I do know what I'm talking about, simply because I choose to voice my opinions in a manner that you disagree with, doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong.