So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[astronaut jones]

This is a pretty good summary. All it is lacking is any idea what really went on.

Hello, Mr. Blindman, although you may be saying that you see, for some reason I am doubting your words. Your claims to actually know what went on may be of most benefit to your alliance and your allies, but, how much do you really see when you've been so blind (not to mention deaf, unfortunately not dumb.. dumb as in the not being able to speak sense) for so long.

Why should anyone believe what you say?

Edited January 5, 2010 by astronaut jones

[Augustus Autumn]

Second, there was no schedule to be interrupted, no grander plan. If you want proof, think about it...all that needed to be done was a refusal to give a second peace offer and everyone would have been drawn in, etc. Punishing TPF was never ancillary to a grander goal, it was the whole goal from the very start. Giving peace and not widening the conflict reinforces this notion, and there could not have been a failure to bring in anyone as the only one desired to be in was TPF. CC could also not have failed, as they had nothing to gain if the matter widened.

This being the Cyberverse someone, somewhere, was hatching some scheme on this. The usual rallying of the allies was taking place as evidenced by the ADI and M*A*S*H fiascos so people were thinking all about layered defense even if those on the SG side just wanted to pop in and out. Those on the CC side of things made a point of avoiding declarations on Ragnorok. Also, if punishment of the guilty was the purpose then why was the person who concocted the very cause of Athens and Ragnorok to declare permitted to escape unscathed? I'd like to believe that this was an honest war but this is the Cyberverse. Someone was hoping this would escalate and bigger fish would be hauled out to be gutted (several thousand, in fact). I'm far too skeptical to buy this coincidental nonsense, especially when you have a member of The Order of the Paradox planning the military affairs of over a dozen alliances for a war that TOP wasn't even a part of (yet).

...also, the discussion in this thread is so civil its almost scary...I'm not sure how to handle it.

That's what happens when you bring the intellectual level up. Aside from some poor sniping on the part of two persons attempting to attack my intelligence as well as the intelligences of others I'm rather impressed myself.

[LiquidMercury]

One that came too little, too late to be called an actual victory. Considering the amount of wind up and warmongering nonsense tossed around but such notables as JWConner along with wonderfully pregnant statements from Roadie of TPF to name the ones I bothered to remember the actual production fell short. If anything, the declarations of war by the CC were more like declarations of intent to declare war. A massed collection of alliances, some of whom shared mandatory defense treaties which were activated by their partner alliance, The Phoenix Federation, failed to actually defend anything and that's the shame of it. Their ally got pounded, there was no call to settlement and everybody simply wiped their hands and went home like nothing happened. My lord, but I'd hope this is not the future of the 'verse. If it is best all treaties be canceled. Then again, that wouldn't be the worst thing.

So the victory here is a war that ended without a demand for reparations? There's been plenty of that. I'd argue there's been no victory here at all - TPF's foolishness for spying went largely unpunished since the perpetrators remained untouched, Athens and Ragnorok's poor diplomatic showing and rush to war was not punished since they were allowed to back off almost-free and the failure of multiple alliances to honor their treaties in a meaningful way has not been punished since they're running around singing "peace in our time". What we saw here was the apathy of the 'verse once more, thousands of national leaders willing to sit by once again and do not a thing or run screaming to peace mode once it looked like things were going to get series and they might actually not be assured a victory.

Because I suck at multi quoting business:

Quote 1: Just because a mandatory defense treaty in your mind dictates that it must be activated immediately, does not mean that all parties see it as such. The fact is that TPF was okay with the plan, they agreed to it, had they not and were my [ooc] RL not an issue [ooc] then yes, I do believe that you could say that it would be an issue. As far as all treaties being canceled, personally I've always been a fan of that. Though you won't see anyone ever do it, maybe NSO because Ivan has a bit of a crazy streak in him. The only ones that could pull it off logistically would be a dictatorship type government due to the varying opinions in democracies I do not feel as though any democracy could pull it off. I'd say that possibly MK, TOP, or Gremlins could pull it off as they have the political capital to do so as well as the respect levels for all three are high enough that no one would simple just roll them because they could, even though I'd say the respect for TOP is less then the other two but the military power due to the sheer nature of the NS and the high tier capabilities as well as the amount of NS versus the other two would allow it to be possible.

Quote 2: The victory is that two parties essentially agreed to disagree and left the battle field. Normally, when two parties are in disagreement, are actively engaged, neither leave the field of battle, and most definitely not with white peace. In regards to the peace mode tactic, it was/is a viable tactic to fight in the tiers you want to be in. Could it of been employed more effectively had it not been around the holidays and more alliances were active as a whole? Absolutely. That tactic strategically will work BEST for alliances such as citadel alliances, MK, TSO, and other extremely active (80-90%+ daily activity) alliance types. Trying to fit it to mass-recruiting alliances is harder and less effective. The peace mode tactic was not by any means a sense of apathy, simply a military strategy that I felt gave the best chances for a side with less NS, less nations, less nooks. It gave us a chance, albeit a small one. Though I agree that poor actions on both sides went largely unpunished (TPF did in my mind take their punishment, though it was not deserved as I always believed the slate wiped clean from Karma), sometimes it's better to just say "hey, we both kind of messed up here, lets just walk away and we'll fight another day over something less silly."

[Seerow]

Ah ha. Score one for you, chuckles. You gave me what-for.

So many things wrong with this. So very many.

18 alliances secure 24 attacks. You think people were scared off by that?

Of course it had nothing at all to do with white peace being agreed upon -before- the DoWs came in from the other alliances. That would just be crazy.

[Augustus Autumn]

Quote 1: Just because a mandatory defense treaty in your mind dictates that it must be activated immediately, does not mean that all parties see it as such. The fact is that TPF was okay with the plan, they agreed to it, had they not and were my [ooc] RL not an issue [ooc] then yes, I do believe that you could say that it would be an issue. As far as all treaties being canceled, personally I've always been a fan of that. Though you won't see anyone ever do it, maybe NSO because Ivan has a bit of a crazy streak in him. The only ones that could pull it off logistically would be a dictatorship type government due to the varying opinions in democracies I do not feel as though any democracy could pull it off. I'd say that possibly MK, TOP, or Gremlins could pull it off as they have the political capital to do so as well as the respect levels for all three are high enough that no one would simple just roll them because they could, even though I'd say the respect for TOP is less then the other two but the military power due to the sheer nature of the NS and the high tier capabilities as well as the amount of NS versus the other two would allow it to be possible.

At this point the six day wait, the damage it caused to the credibility of all involved and all that other jazz has been settled. I take issue with the claim that there was any credible defense at all aside from over a dozen alliance leaders posting up their intentions to so something. In exchange for taking a loss of 922,597 in total alliance strength The Phoenix Federation was defended by... harsh language. This is not a defense. I use harsh language because it's the only thing I've got to push off the "bring it" crowd. The idea of me fulfilling some sort of defensive contract by posting things within these forums is absurd. Why does it fly for your coalition?

At the end of the day, I assert that this coincidental happening (and I still don't really get how TOP was "coincidentally" involved here but whatever) didn't actually do a damned thing aside from posture. I'm not seeing a convincing argument to the contrary.

Quote 2: The victory is that two parties essentially agreed to disagree and left the battle field. Normally, when two parties are in disagreement, are actively engaged, neither leave the field of battle, and most definitely not with white peace. In regards to the peace mode tactic, it was/is a viable tactic to fight in the tiers you want to be in. Could it of been employed more effectively had it not been around the holidays and more alliances were active as a whole? Absolutely. That tactic strategically will work BEST for alliances such as citadel alliances, MK, TSO, and other extremely active (80-90%+ daily activity) alliance types. Trying to fit it to mass-recruiting alliances is harder and less effective. The peace mode tactic was not by any means a sense of apathy, simply a military strategy that I felt gave the best chances for a side with less NS, less nations, less nooks. It gave us a chance, albeit a small one. Though I agree that poor actions on both sides went largely unpunished (TPF did in my mind take their punishment, though it was not deserved as I always believed the slate wiped clean from Karma), sometimes it's better to just say "hey, we both kind of messed up here, lets just walk away and we'll fight another day over something less silly."

So now both sides are admitting they messed up? First I've heard of it. Also, since your tactic of rolling into peace mode effectively prevented your own coalition from getting onto the battlefield in the first place I don't see how it's possible to have stepped off of it. Can you clarify this?

[Krashnaia]

The SuperGrievances Coalition

Yes, I used the Athens flag. Why? Because it's pretty and I like it. Sue me.

You guys had a solid cassus belli beyond "Grrrrrr NPO" or "It was a tech raid, just a tech raid, why are you all so mad?". You had the guns, you had the ships, you had the screaming masses, you had the initiative. Why, exactly, did you cut and run at the last minute? Was it that someone saw through your battle plan, that the counter-attack wasn't aimed at Ragnorok to stop the massive dive of the Superfriends coming in and you realized you were in quite the pickle? Maybe it was some outstanding diplomacy on the part of Athens and Ragnorok which lost treaties with alliances because you were unwilling to do anything other than chomp at the bit? I doubt a straight answer will be provided. Needless to say, for a bunch of aggressor alliances to simply pack it in by saying "Ok, party's over, we're going home" without the usual hemming and hawwing along with the actual war which was so very advertised is pretty damned funny. Sure, y'all can win in a four-on-one surprise offensive but you lost a fight which was very much yours to win in the first place. Have fun with those victory marches, kids. May the enemy's looted tech bring your citizenry much added income.

In general it's a good reading, but I must make a commentary about this bit.

The CC didn't declare on RoK, but they declared on GOD, wich is also member of the SF. So, if the lack of DoW on RoK was a plan to keep SF out of this mess, it was one of the most idiotic things ever conceived. Not to speak about the fact that, from the SF point of view, TPF was the agressor with their spying grand schemes, so SF was bound to help RoK anyway.

Since my good nature compels me to think the best about people (until I'm proven wrong), I assume that CC was intelligent enough to understand this little fact. They counted with SF entering the conflict, and thus their plan was not to try keeping SF out of the mess, but rather to avoid activating certain RoK's MDPs wich could bring alliances like MHA or NpO (to name a few) into the conflict. Take a quick peek at the Wiki to learn more about RoK's MDPs.

At this point, the SG declaration of White Peace may (in my humble oppinion) have been the product of:

1) SG feeling already satisfied by having smacked TPF for almost a week without any of their allies showing up to the defense.

2) SG thinking it was not worth it to compel SF and other allies into a Global Conflic that, even if victorious, would cause severe damage to their pixels.

3) RoK judging it was not worth it to stretch the rope tying their MDP's.

Of course, as I have not been taking part in any of the confabulations and talkings behind the scenes, all my opinions are just a speculation.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Krashnaia

[Il Impero Romano]

This being the Cyberverse someone, somewhere, was hatching some scheme on this. The usual rallying of the allies was taking place as evidenced by the ADI and M*A*S*H fiascos so people were thinking all about layered defense even if those on the SG side just wanted to pop in and out.

Yes forces were rallying, but that does not mean the intention was for them to rally. There is a difference between being cognizant of the fact that a course of action may have an implication and embarking on that course of action because your intent is to bring about those implications. Here, I can assure you the original intent was just simply to punish TPF, nothing more, and just because Athens and Rok acted upon what they personally feel was a just CB that deserved retribution and did not shy away from doing so because of the international ramifications that declaring war could have does not mean they were out for a wider conflict the whole time.

Also, if punishment of the guilty was the purpose then why was the person who concocted the very cause of Athens and Ragnorok to declare permitted to escape unscathed?

Because it would have been ridiculous to punish TPF week after week while their leader was in peace mode on vacation or whatever I would imagine.

I'd like to believe that this was an honest war but this is the Cyberverse. Someone was hoping this would escalate and bigger fish would be hauled out to be gutted (several thousand, in fact). I'm far too skeptical to buy this coincidental nonsense, especially when you have a member of The Order of the Paradox planning the military affairs of over a dozen alliances for a war that TOP wasn't even a part of (yet).

Yes, the later stages were certainly no coincidence, but that does not mean the foundation was not honest. As for people hoping this would blow up, I'm sure there were thousands, but it once again goes back to the intent of the original involved alliances as I noted above. LM planning the strategy for CC was just normal operation in any matter that could erupt such as this, as the treaty chain on their end did in fact lead back to TOP and their placement in the affair was clear. It was by no means unreasonable or telling of anything for him to do so. In fact, the SC side did the same when it became clear such a thing was necessary, and similarly the military planner was not a member of an already involved alliance (hello :x). But, does this mean that the point of the declarations on TPF was to make this world go boom? No, it just is good practice to cover all the bases once its clear that the boom could happen.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Augustus Autumn]

In general it's a good reading, but I must make a commentary about this bit.

The CC didn't declare on RoK, but they declared on GOD, wich is also member of the SF. So, if the lack of DoW on RoK was a plan to keep SF out of this mess, it was one of the most idiotic things ever conceived. Not to speak about the fact that, from the SF point of view, TPF was the agressor with their spying grand schemes, so SF was bound to help RoK anyway.

Since my good nature compels me to think the best about people (until I'm proven wrong), I assume that CC was intelligent enough to understand this, and that their plan was not to keep SF out of the mess, but rather to avoid activating certain RoK's MDPs wich could bring alliances like MHA or NpO (to name a few) into the conflict. Take a quick peek at the Wiki to know more about RoK's MDPs.

At this point, the SG declaration of White Peace may (in my humble oppinion) have been the product of:

1) SG feeling already satisfied by having smacked TPF for almost a week without any of their allies showing up to the defense.

2) SG thinking it was not worth it to compel SF and other allies into a Global Conflic that, even if victorious, would cause some damage to them.

3) RoK judging it was not worth it to stretch the rope tying their MDP's.

Of course, as I have not been taking part in any of the confabulations and talkings behind the scenes, all my opinions are just a speculation.

First, I like the analysis presented here. I'll happily admit I'm not up on the political scene vis-a-vis who's allied to who these days and thus my assessment was flawed as to some motivations. I still stand by the assertions I've made concerning the effects of SG's activities, however.

Second, Hoo was kind enough to shed some light on Ragnorok government's thinking here which I think answers some of your hypothetical motivations.

Again, good work, well said.

Yes forces were rallying, but that does not mean the intention was for them to rally. There is a difference between being cognizant of the fact that a course of action will have implication and embarking on that course of action because your intent is to bring about those implications. Here, I can assure you the original intent was just simply to punish TPF, nothing more, and just because Athens and Rok acted upon what they personally feel was a just CB that deserved retribution and did not shy away from doing so because of the international ramifications that declaring war could have does not mean they were out for a wider conflict the whole time.

But here's the problem. The established intent from the get-go was to punish the wrong-doing against Athens and Ragnorok. If so, why take these alliances to war when the guilty cannot be punished and also, for the love of Admin, explain that this is a limited war? Other alliances in the past have made the terms of engagement very clear from the start. There was no mention of two weeks of war and then white peace. There was no mention of the just being brought to the pole. Instead the attackers went in while their foreign affairs departments scrambled to make sure their allies were lined up for the expected counter punches. One method speaks of holding back, the other of a war to the point of surrender. It just didn't work out that way when things got a little dicey.

Because it would have been ridiculous to punish TPF week after week while their leader was in peace mode on vacation or whatever I would imagine.

Athens established there is no statute of limitations on spying here. Thus, they could have waited until mhawk got back. They didn't. And no, it doesn't take a terribly smart person to figure out he wasn't going to be around.

Yes, the later stages were certainly no coincidence, but that does not mean the foundation was not honest. As for people hoping this would blow up, I'm sure there were thousands, but it once again goes back to the intent of the original involved alliances as I noted above. LM planning the strategy for CC was just normal operation in any matter that could erupt such as this, as the treaty chain on their end did in fact lead back to TOP and their placement in the affair was clear. It was by no means unreasonable or telling of anything for him to do so. In fact, the SC side did the same when it became clear such a thing was necessary, and similarly the military planner was not a member of an already involved alliance (hello :x). But, does this mean that the point of the declarations on TPF was to make this world go boom? No, it just is good practice to cover all the bases once its clear that the boom could happen.

I haven't argued the foundation of this war at all, hence my commentary on the validity of the casus belli (look, I spelled it right! I think). I'm not just brand new enough to think that there weren't others circling on this one and prodding away. I remember the planning for the Karma War all too well to think that's not the case at all.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Van Hoo III]

Someone was hoping this would escalate ...

That is 100% accurate. However, they were not named Athens, \m/, GOD, Ragnarok, or even The Phoenix Federation.

Edit: Quote tag failure.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Van Hoo III

[LiquidMercury]

At this point the six day wait, the damage it caused to the credibility of all involved and all that other jazz has been settled. I take issue with the claim that there was any credible defense at all aside from over a dozen alliance leaders posting up their intentions to so something. In exchange for taking a loss of 922,597 in total alliance strength The Phoenix Federation was defended by... harsh language. This is not a defense. I use harsh language because it's the only thing I've got to push off the "bring it" crowd. The idea of me fulfilling some sort of defensive contract by posting things within these forums is absurd. Why does it fly for your coalition?

At the end of the day, I assert that this coincidental happening (and I still don't really get how TOP was "coincidentally" involved here but whatever) didn't actually do a damned thing aside from posture. I'm not seeing a convincing argument to the contrary.

So now both sides are admitting they messed up? First I've heard of it. Also, since your tactic of rolling into peace mode effectively prevented your own coalition from getting onto the battlefield in the first place I don't see how it's possible to have stepped off of it. Can you clarify this?

Part 1: Sometimes a win is more important then the short term prevention of destruction of NS. I think FAN would agree to this as they won in the long run. Either way, as I've said, I take full responsibility for the delay of entrance.

Part 2: Sometimes the war is won on the boards, sometimes the field of battle. Posturing serves it's purpose, though personally I'd prefer to blow stuff up for a legitimate cause.

Part 3: I have always stated my opinion that I believed both sides messed up. I was of the mindset of being in the coalition for my friends and allies at IRON and just that. It is not like karma where I felt some grave injustice was done and I joined the fray, I joined simply for IRON, for my friends, and the thought that I could get the job done. To this day I stand by the fact that I believe both sides made errors in judgement (including myself). In regards to the battlefield bit, had things escalated, the PM strategy would of given us the best opportunity. The fact that things did not escalate in large scale global war, does not mean forces did not step onto the battlefield. They took war into their hearts, ready to go knowing that it would be a long protracted war severely damaging to all due to extended peace mode stays, and to fighting restricted within certain tiers. Sometimes you go to war in your heart and mind but never draw a weapon. I can vouch for that right now as I personally am doing that myself in other medians.

Though we are prone to disagree here on many things, thank you for being so open-minded and at least getting beyond the erroneous "NO U."

[Chief Savage Man]

\m/

You guys didn't disband! That's a win for you! Woohoo!

I'll take it.

[Krashnaia]

First, I like the analysis presented here. I'll happily admit I'm not up on the political scene vis-a-vis who's allied to who these days and thus my assessment was flawed as to some motivations. I still stand by the assertions I've made concerning the effects of SG's activities, however.

Second, Hoo was kind enough to shed some light on Ragnorok government's thinking here which I think answers some of your hypothetical motivations.

Again, good work, well said.

Thank you. Nice thread you opened, as I said.

Anyway, in my humble opinion, Global War has not escalated because, unlike in the Karma War, this time there was not nearly enough hate in the ambience to make people think getting their pixels irradiated was worth it.

This whole affair has raised the bar one level, through, so maybe next time people will feel more inclined to mutual destruction.

[LiquidMercury]

In general it's a good reading, but I must make a commentary about this bit.

The CC didn't declare on RoK, but they declared on GOD, wich is also member of the SF. So, if the lack of DoW on RoK was a plan to keep SF out of this mess, it was one of the most idiotic things ever conceived. Not to speak about the fact that, from the SF point of view, TPF was the agressor with their spying grand schemes, so SF was bound to help RoK anyway.

Since my good nature compels me to think the best about people (until I'm proven wrong), I assume that CC was intelligent enough to understand this little fact. They counted with SF entering the conflict, and thus their plan was not to try keeping SF out of the mess, but rather to avoid activating certain RoK's MDPs wich could bring alliances like MHA or NpO (to name a few) into the conflict. Take a quick peek at the Wiki to learn more about RoK's MDPs.

At this point, the SG declaration of White Peace may (in my humble oppinion) have been the product of:

1) SG feeling already satisfied by having smacked TPF for almost a week without any of their allies showing up to the defense.

2) SG thinking it was not worth it to compel SF and other allies into a Global Conflic that, even if victorious, would cause severe damage to their pixels.

3) RoK judging it was not worth it to stretch the rope tying their MDP's.

Of course, as I have not been taking part in any of the confabulations and talkings behind the scenes, all my opinions are just a speculation.

The intention of not declaring on RoK in the initial declaration had absolutely zero to do with bringing SF in. We fully were aware of the fact that SF would be brought in by declaring on GOD. Though not declaring on RoK during the initial declaration did indeed take into consideration other MDP partners of RoK it was not the main consideration. And that's about all I'll go into that.

[Goose]

The intention of not declaring on RoK in the initial declaration had absolutely zero to do with bringing SF in. We fully were aware of the fact that SF would be brought in by declaring on GOD. Though not declaring on RoK during the initial declaration did indeed take into consideration other MDP partners of RoK it was not the main consideration. And that's about all I'll go into that.

Oh, but you know how we fawn over RoK and just kind of tolerate GOD.

[omfghi2u2]

I will have to say, I am quite impressed with ToK here breaking down each argument that someone has to offer.

And like I said in another thread, I am speaking from the view point of a soldier here. Cybernations should be used for battle instead of just using words and e-lawyering and what not. In the Cybernations universe, wars should not be a hiatus between peace, but the opposite, peace should just be a break between wars.

-omfg

[LiquidMercury]

Oh, but you know how we fawn over RoK and just kind of tolerate GOD.

You don't like GOD? SF IS BREAKING UP!!! [insert other wild speculation]!

[Augustus Autumn]

Part 1: Sometimes a win is more important then the short term prevention of destruction of NS. I think FAN would agree to this as they won in the long run. Either way, as I've said, I take full responsibility for the delay of entrance.

I still don't see a victory here beyond The Phoenix Federation not being smashed flat for the actions of its government. If victory is being measured by survival then, sure, I guess it's a victory but not one that I'm going to recognize. I think we've talked this one back and forth enough to leave it be. Also, the responsibility isn't yours to take - it rests with the leaders of eighteen alliances out there. It was their choice to make, not yours.

Part 2: Sometimes the war is won on the boards, sometimes the field of battle. Posturing serves it's purpose, though personally I'd prefer to blow stuff up for a legitimate cause.

Except when posturing is called out for being what it is, posturing. A lot of your coalition's membership presence within these forums took a very aggressive stance which, in turn, brought out the usual round of "Bring it!" remarks. In response, the coalition's membership made lots of fun statements like "Just you wait" and the like. When it came time a lot of words flew up and then nothing happened except SG going home with the spoils of war.

Add to this the assertion by Hoo that the actions of the coalition were ultimately meaningless. If that's the case then the war was not "won on the boards". Maybe it was won in some back channel via the IRC communications network but it certainly wasn't won by the efforts of nations working together. Whatever happened, the posturing undertaken by your coalition doesn't seem to have done anything but make a lot of people look very foolish. And, for what it's worth, that's a right-royal shame.

Part 3: I have always stated my opinion that I believed both sides messed up. I was of the mindset of being in the coalition for my friends and allies at IRON and just that. It is not like karma where I felt some grave injustice was done and I joined the fray, I joined simply for IRON, for my friends, and the thought that I could get the job done. To this day I stand by the fact that I believe both sides made errors in judgement (including myself). In regards to the battlefield bit, had things escalated, the PM strategy would of given us the best opportunity. The fact that things did not escalate in large scale global war, does not mean forces did not step onto the battlefield. They took war into their hearts, ready to go knowing that it would be a long protracted war severely damaging to all due to extended peace mode stays, and to fighting restricted within certain tiers. Sometimes you go to war in your heart and mind but never draw a weapon. I can vouch for that right now as I personally am doing that myself in other medians.

I think my bafflement on the admission thing comes not from you saying that both sides buggered this but that nobody else has. Barring you becoming the Voice of Coincidence (doesn't sound as cool as the Wrath of Karma but what can you do?) it's going to take some of the bigger players saying it for it to stick. For what it's worth, yes, both sides dig screw up and badly. That it didn't escalate likely has a lot to do with people showing up (read: treaty partners), tapping them on the head somewhere along the line and asking them what was going on. As for defining the battlefield, the 'verse has a pretty solid definition where it exists. These forums of debate, while open to comparison, are not the battlefield. That's the place where bullets fly, artillery booms and nuclear fire keeps us all warm.

Though we are prone to disagree here on many things, thank you for being so open-minded and at least getting beyond the erroneous "NO U."

The same to you - it's good to have a real discourse once in a while.

I will have to say, I am quite impressed with ToK here breaking down each argument that someone has to offer.

And like I said in another thread, I am speaking from the view point of a soldier here. Cybernations should be used for battle instead of just using words and e-lawyering and what not. In the Cybernations universe, wars should not be a hiatus between peace, but the opposite, peace should just be a break between wars.

-omfg

An appreciable and very hawkish attitude, one I can understand. However, there is the underlying misunderstanding about the nature of the 'verse which continuously amuses me.

People want to win.

National rulers like myself participate in the 'verse's political battles because of the conflict, written or otherwise, as well as the clash of arms which occurs. It is that conflict, not the period after the conclusion, which drives us since it promises instability and possibility. However, there is apparently some unwritten credo out there which says that it's only worth getting into one of these pell-mell conflicts if you actually know you're already going to win, thereby removing your chances for any of the actual fun parts. More and more often wars are ending with the masses being disgruntled because nothing is actually thrown into the air. Possibilities are crushed not because of the massive weight of large alliances but because you keep buying into the system imposed. If you truly want constant war with periodic breaks then you, sir, have the means available to you. Go out and find your path if that is the one you wish to tread.

[omfghi2u2]

I agree, but it seems that the game is played more by the heads of alliance leaders then by everyone instead.

And yes, I am always for war, but I will not just mindlessly attack random targets. I would rather fight with honor then just go nuclear rogue and what not.

-omfg

[Augustus Autumn]

I agree, but it seems that the game is played more by the heads of alliance leaders then by everyone instead.

Precisely.

And yes, I am always for war, but I will not just mindlessly attack random targets. I would rather fight with honor then just go nuclear rogue and what not.

There's got to be someone out there you have issue with. If not, build up and then when the time arrives challenge them. Hell, do it on the OWF. Pageantry and whatnot. Have some fun, declare vendetta, fling your nukes and enjoy for tomorrow you get to do it all over again. Don't sit back and be a talking head - do something to save your own enjoyment of the 'verse.

[omfghi2u2]

Precisely.

There's got to be someone out there you have issue with. If not, build up and then when the time arrives challenge them. Hell, do it on the OWF. Pageantry and whatnot. Have some fun, declare vendetta, fling your nukes and enjoy for tomorrow you get to do it all over again. Don't sit back and be a talking head - do something to save your own enjoyment of the 'verse.

I have no hard feelings toward anyone. Only HeroofTime but he is long dead. My only enjoyment is to hug my infrastructre and tech raid unaligned nations in my range.

-omfg

[Augustus Autumn]

I have no hard feelings toward anyone. Only HeroofTime but he is long dead. My only enjoyment is to hug my infrastructre and tech raid unaligned nations in my range.

-omfg

Then I don't see grounds for complaints here. You don't like what you're doing at some point? Change it up.

[Dochartaigh]

Part 3: I have always stated my opinion that I believed both sides messed up. I was of the mindset of being in the coalition for my friends and allies at IRON and just that. It is not like karma where I felt some grave injustice was done and I joined the fray, I joined simply for IRON, for my friends, and the thought that I could get the job done.

well i think this certainly clears up a lot of the speculation surrounding your involvement and pretty much states why i thought you were conducting the preparations.

[Kyle Smith]

Things have changed a lot my friend. It's quite unfortunate to see what has happened at TPF and, personally, I'm thankful that my former alliance left OPP when it did, though the circumstances were not excellent for either TPF or my alliance. While I'm grateful for the protection TPF provided that alliance with, reading what you state occurred in July, I'm very happy that I never had to participate in being informed of this, if I would have been informed at all.

This is the first topic I've read all the way through in a very long time. I appreciate the fact that everyone has remained civil throughout the discussion. I get awfully tired of reading what basically amounts to "no u" for 10-15 pages. Great work Toku. I'll continue to read on.

[Augustus Autumn]

While I'm grateful for the protection TPF provided that alliance with, reading what you state occurred in July, I'm very happy that I never had to participate in being informed of this, if I would have been informed at all.

You wouldn't have been. I was told with what I can only assume was the intent to demonstrate mhawk's brilliance and craftiness, thus it wasn't some official communique. I was basically out the door to Pacifica by then anyway.

This is the first topic I've read all the way through in a very long time. I appreciate the fact that everyone has remained civil throughout the discussion. I get awfully tired of reading what basically amounts to "no u" for 10-15 pages. Great work Toku. I'll continue to read on.

I'm glad that both myself and your fellow national rulers have been able to make this a worthwhile read. Cheers to you and yours, stop by some time and say hello.

[Ch33kY]

The OP totaly and naivey disregards the success of the Coincidence Coalition's diplomacy that avoided total war that a lot of people did not. Well done.