So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[SpiderJerusalem]

You started a war, based on what you advocate to be a valid CB and you decided to withdrawn from the said war the time that the opposition was formed. This is the conclusion that can be drawn based solely on the OWF. In short you started a job that you couldn’t finish. Take into consideration that for Athens this wasn’t the first time and maybe you can see what I meant.

I can see how it will look bad on the OWF. However, we did finish the job we started. The plan all along was to punish TPF, and we got to do that, with almost no counter attacks. In the end, the response from the other side was rather pathetic, and that is why I am arguing that they have lost a lot of this political capital as well

Just for clarity, I am not saying that in reality things are that simple, I am just describing the picture I got just from lurking in the OWF. It is obvious that this is my opinion thus subjective and as the outcome of this incidence is still undecided you can support the opposite and be as valid as I am (maybe more as I take you are more informed than me).

Again, I can see why you have that impression

Concerning the comment about credibility and infra, I was just commenting a post about the fact that TPF took a week long beating. I have the impression that TPF has their credibility intact, at least among their allies, so I think they actually didn't lose anything, as infra don't mean that much now. That’s all

Oh, I chuckled because it came from an NPO member

[AirMe]

Things are exactly the same, it wasn't enough of a curbstomp for ye brave warriors, so you'll wait for a better opportunity. Altruistic this peace wasn't................

You need to come out of your little closet and experience other alliances to realize that it is not the same as it used to be. No one is under a diplomatic black curtain, there isn't the overwhelming fear that someone is going to get rolled for no reason. You base your fears off of paranoia and nothing else. The resolution of this war is proof of that. You really need to put a diplomatic team together and go out and talk to people and learn that not everything your allies tell you is the truth. I invite you, and any alliance for that matter to visit Ronin's forums and set up a QnA. I bet MK would love a QnA with just about anyone as well...make MT do some work. You might learn a few things.

Edited January 6, 2010 by AirMe

[Bob Janova]

I agree that nobody won. The CC talked a big game on the forums, mobilised ten or so major alliances, declared a load of wars ... and managed at best a nominal counter attack before accepting a cessation of hostilities, while their ally TPF took a week of unsupported beating. That's a loss.

SG talked a big game on the forums, jumped an alliance without diplomacy, baited the CC continually for at least four days, and then when they saw the possible harm they were going to take, bailed out. Their public stock has gone down markedly (especially Athens, but also the other initial belligerents) and they lost their influence on Purple (through M*A*S*H). That's also a loss.

The only winners are the NPO (their sphere clearly still needs them so they'll resume in a position of power when they come out of terms), the neutrals (laughing at us all) and TOP and Polar (who have seen just how scared and incapable the rest of CN is when faced with them).

[Nobody Expects]

No one is under a diplomatic black curtain, there isn't the overwhelming fear that someone is going to get rolled for no reason.

So the rolling of TPF without resorting to diplomacy first, using the flimsiest of CB's, is the ushering in of a brave new era............

[Augustus Autumn]

I agree that nobody won. The CC talked a big game on the forums, mobilised ten or so major alliances, declared a load of wars ... and managed at best a nominal counter attack before accepting a cessation of hostilities, while their ally TPF took a week of unsupported beating. That's a loss.

SG talked a big game on the forums, jumped an alliance without diplomacy, baited the CC continually for at least four days, and then when they saw the possible harm they were going to take, bailed out. Their public stock has gone down markedly (especially Athens, but also the other initial belligerents) and they lost their influence on Purple (through M*A*S*H). That's also a loss.

The only winners are the NPO (their sphere clearly still needs them so they'll resume in a position of power when they come out of terms), the neutrals (laughing at us all) and TOP and Polar (who have seen just how scared and incapable the rest of CN is when faced with them).

Bob, I think you just went and agreed with me. Mark this one down as a first.

So the rolling of TPF without resorting to diplomacy first, using the flimsiest of CB's, is the ushering in of a brave new era............

I don't think anyone believes what we're seeing here is a "new" era. Rather, its the same business with different people at the head of the table. A new era is possible, it just requires a tad more courage.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[AirMe]

So the rolling of TPF without resorting to diplomacy first, using the flimsiest of CB's, is the ushering in of a brave new era............

While I wish they had tried diplomacy first, their CB was valid. I don't believe this is the place for the road you are about to take us down, but suffice to say, you weren't complaining when your allies were rolling out flimsy CB's on other alliances, CB's FAR weaker than this one.

[AirMe]

I don't think anyone believes what we're seeing here is a "new" era. Rather, its the same business with different people at the head of the table. A new era is possible, it just requires a tad more courage.

Actually, he is quoting me.

[Augustus Autumn]

Actually, he is quoting me.

Oh, I know, I just tire of the "new era" nonsense and people getting bent because the 'verse hasn't gone and turned pretty pastel shades now that Pax Pacifica is over. Gets old after a while, especially as it tends to catapult the discussion back into one about the Karma Was which is utterly irrelevant in this case.

[HellAngel]

While I wish they had tried diplomacy first, their CB was valid. I don't believe this is the place for the road you are about to take us down, but suffice to say, you weren't complaining when your allies were rolling out flimsy CB's on other alliances, CB's FAR weaker than this one.

Fact is, this just reminds everyone that Karma wasnt about morals. Spying was #1 on NPOs convenience CB list.

[AirMe]

Fact is, this just reminds everyone that Karma wasnt about morals. Spying was #1 on NPOs convenience CB list.

Except in this instance, TPF admitted to putting a plan into action to destroy the Athens community. Or at the very least, everyone can admit the intent was there. Where as the NPO hardly ever had any solid proof when they used spying as CB.

[astronaut jones]

I agree that nobody won. The CC talked a big game on the forums, mobilised ten or so major alliances, declared a load of wars ... and managed at best a nominal counter attack before accepting a cessation of hostilities, while their ally TPF took a week of unsupported beating. That's a loss.

SG talked a big game on the forums, jumped an alliance without diplomacy, baited the CC continually for at least four days, and then when they saw the possible harm they were going to take, bailed out. Their public stock has gone down markedly (especially Athens, but also the other initial belligerents) and they lost their influence on Purple (through M*A*S*H). That's also a loss.

The only winners are the NPO (their sphere clearly still needs them so they'll resume in a position of power when they come out of terms), the neutrals (laughing at us all) and TOP and Polar (who have seen just how scared and incapable the rest of CN is when faced with them).

You could argue that the NSO, STA, and NpO along with TOP and NPO are the big winners, as any former frostbite alliance should at least be thankful that they no longer have to take part, as a bloc, in this mess.

Though I still think that Ivan et al are trying to get the boys back together for one last tour. But, meh, it would be fun if he did.

[Cortath]

You need to come out of your little closet and experience other alliances to realize that it is not the same as it used to be. No one is under a diplomatic black curtain, there isn't the overwhelming fear that someone is going to get rolled for no reason. You base your fears off of paranoia and nothing else. The resolution of this war is proof of that. You really need to put a diplomatic team together and go out and talk to people and learn that not everything your allies tell you is the truth. I invite you, and any alliance for that matter to visit Ronin's forums and set up a QnA. I bet MK would love a QnA with just about anyone as well...make MT do some work. You might learn a few things.

Just an observation from a terribly uninterested and bored bystander, but I can't help but notice, AirMe, that TPF got attacked without any warning or diplomatic efforts.

Seem to me that if an alliance wants to live in fear for being rolled/attacked, they have a pretty decent example to give their fears a bit of weight.

[Vladimir]

Except in this instance, TPF admitted to putting a plan into action to destroy the Athens community. Or at the very least, everyone can admit the intent was there. Where as the NPO hardly ever had any solid proof when they used spying as CB.

A quick point of fact that our wars against espionage have always gone to the alliance diplomatically first, and (for all that I can remember) have always had a direct admission at the time of conflict (you may argue that what OV's actions prior to the Armageddon War didn't constitute spying, but that was an argument of definition rather than proof).

[Ogaden]

A quick point of fact that our wars against espionage have always gone to the alliance diplomatically first, and (for all that I can remember) have always had a direct admission at the time of conflict (you may argue that what OV's actions prior to the Armageddon War didn't constitute spying, but that was an argument of definition rather than proof).

Actually it was pretty clear which alliance was committing espionage in that instance, and it wasn't OV.

[Vladimir]

Actually it was pretty clear which alliance was committing espionage in that instance, and it wasn't OV.

Welcome to the argument of definition. Also to 9 months ago.

[Ogaden]

Welcome to the argument of definition. Also to 9 months ago.

You brought it up, Vladimir. Go ahead and backpedal furiously though.

[silentkiller]

You brought it up, Vladimir. Go ahead and backpedal furiously though.

No he is not backpedaling, he is talking about something completely irrelevant to your or my definition of spying, he is talking about how diplomacy was always tried by New Pacific Order.

[NickCooley]

You brought it up, Vladimir. Go ahead and backpedal furiously though.

How is that backpedalling? He clearly said he thought it was an argument of definition. Then when you made your petty little attempt at a shot at NPO he AGAIN pointed out it was an argument of definition.

The problem here isn't Vladimir backpedalling. It's you being a petty cretin.

[astronaut jones]

No he is not backpedaling, he is talking about something completely irrelevant to your or my definition of spying, he is talking about how diplomacy was always tried by New Pacific Order.

Diplomacy, bullying, the two are synonymous on planet bob.

[Krashnaia]

Looks like you are talking about the wrong war for this thread.

Let's leave the Karma War and the NPO alone. It's not like those are topics that have been discussed over and over in more than a thousand threads.

This thread was intended to discuss a more recent conflict.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Krashnaia

[Augustus Autumn]

Diplomacy, bullying, the two are synonymous on planet bob.

It all depends on how the victims wish to portray themselves, the same with the victimizers. In these cases everything is subjective. In this specific instance TPF very much brought the pain on themselves by voluntarily entering into this sabotage/espionage nonsense, thus attempting to claim there was no prior warning and the like is very silly. You start something, expect that the other person will find out and plan accordingly. And no, the comparisons between how SG handled this affair and how Pacifica conducted herself in the past are beyond stupid to make.

[Ogaden]

How is that backpedalling? He clearly said he thought it was an argument of definition. Then when you made your petty little attempt at a shot at NPO he AGAIN pointed out it was an argument of definition.

The problem here isn't Vladimir backpedalling. It's you being a petty cretin.

"The infidels in Ordo Verde spied on us, luckily Allah gave us the log files."

[NickCooley]

"The infidels in Ordo Verde spied on us, luckily Allah gave us the log files."

Right... And that proves Vlad is backpedalling and you aren't just being petty how?

EDIT: This is off topic enough already. And I have no doubt the little oik will come back with something thats just plain pants on head retarded. I'll save myself concussion via facepalming and cut it off here.

Edited January 6, 2010 by NickCooley

[Ogaden]

No he is not backpedaling, he is talking about something completely irrelevant to your or my definition of spying, he is talking about how diplomacy was always tried by New Pacific Order.

Having been in NPO's diplomatic corps, I know what NPO's definition of diplomacy is as well as I do their definition of spying.

[AirMe]

Just an observation from a terribly uninterested and bored bystander, but I can't help but notice, AirMe, that TPF got attacked without any warning or diplomatic efforts.

Seem to me that if an alliance wants to live in fear for being rolled/attacked, they have a pretty decent example to give their fears a bit of weight.

Well they had set a plan in motion to destroy a community. Again, just because Athens didn't do the things in the order the rest of us would have liked them too doesn't make their CB any less valid. And if an alliance hasn't done anything wrong then they have nothing to fear about being rolled or attacked. Unlike MK, where we lived in fear of just getting rolled because you didn't like us. Oh wait, when the noCB war happened, you declared war on MK in defense of TORN BEFORE TORN EVEN DECLARED WAR ON US. Not to mention you help support the BS circumstances that got us drawn into the war in the first place.

A quick point of fact that our wars against espionage have always gone to the alliance diplomatically first, and (for all that I can remember) have always had a direct admission at the time of conflict (you may argue that what OV's actions prior to the Armageddon War didn't constitute spying, but that was an argument of definition rather than proof).

I wasn't the one who brought up the NPO Spying CB point, it was someone else. I never said you guys didn't use diplomacy, even if you do feign it to get the result you want. I was only pointing out that I found Athens CB more valid than some of the ones you have used. *cough* GPA *cough*

Edited January 6, 2010 by AirMe