So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[silentkiller]

This is hilarious, they didn't even tell you why.

no u

Thats about as much effort as you put into your posts. Nice one. Comeon Dahl you are losing your touch.

Edited January 6, 2010 by silentkiller

[Haflinger]

While I wish they had tried diplomacy first, their CB was valid. I don't believe this is the place for the road you are about to take us down, but suffice to say, you weren't complaining when your allies were rolling out flimsy CB's on other alliances, CB's FAR weaker than this one.

The only aggressive war that BAPS supported was the War of the Coalition, and if you maybe remember, Polaris supported the war against them where they were nearly destroyed. They had a lot of reasons to hate the Polars back then.

And no, Karma doesn't count. BAPS' involvement in Karma was in defense of its Purple allies. Once Purple was out, so were they.

I like this meme, I wonder if you even know which post it was that started the "James Dahl is uninformed/misinformed" meme in NPO.

I wonder if I'm to blame.

Your name came up in diplomatic backchannels reasonably often, and it wasn't in a positive context.

[Ogaden]

I wonder if I'm to blame.

Your name came up in diplomatic backchannels reasonably often, and it wasn't in a positive context.

Considering how often I defended Invicta in public I don't find it at all ironic that you were probably trash talking me at the same time. It would in fact fit precisely within my views of that side of the treaty web.

[Augustus Autumn]

As charming as this wonderful digression concerning Mr. Dahl's diplomatic prowess (or lack thereof) is, I suspect that this discussion has run its course. Thank you to everyone who contributed something of substance, especially to Van Hoo III, Liquid Mercury, Kzoppistan, JWConner and TheAUT who were players in what actually occured and who offered something of an insider view that many of us on the outside were denied. I look forward to the next instance when, once again, we can analyze the comings and going of the 'verse and pick them apart in a manner which isn't repetative in the extreme.

Until next time, take care.

[Haflinger]

Considering how often I defended Invicta in public I don't find it at all ironic that you were probably trash talking me at the same time. It would in fact fit precisely within my views of that side of the treaty web.

James, I was trash talking you in public.

James Dahl, there are a lot of good people in your alliance. You dishonour them all by speaking in this fashion.

I'm pretty sure that was the first time I replied to one of your posts. My opinion of them did not rise.

[Elegarth]

I used to just parrot whatever people used to say in the Body Republic.

There's a reason NPO goes on radio silence all the time.

Curiously enough, I use to remember this differently... A little bit only, like 180 degrees differently....

And everyone knows we go into Radio Silence because we are mortally scared of the PR!!! You know, as we are loved by everybody and all that....

But by all means, mate, feel free to keep uninformative posts coming up!

[Eric Cantona]

The topic. Stay on it or remove yourselves.

[Crimius]

5. Where in the hell does this leave us?

Sadly, right where it all started unless someone was actually paying attention (unlikely). Treaties are effectively meaningless, the citizenry of the 'verse will whine and complain and nothing will actually be done.

The Grey Council knows all, sees all, and stays out of it all.

at least that last one, anyway.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

What fun is staying out of it all?

[Crimius]

What fun is staying out of it all?

The same fun of watching TV or reading a book.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

I'd equate simply watching CN politics to getting stuck watching an informercial that you thought was going to end 20 minutes ago. Or reading anything written by Milton.

[Prime minister Johns]

I would say that what happened was analogous to a medieval battle.

The two sides squared up on the field of battle to put on a show of force and the generals rode out to talk to each other and see if terms could be reached. And in this case they did and the armies went home reasonably intact.

But in the end the result was that the attacks on the TPF stopped as quickly as it would of been in the scenario of a massed attack by the CC that had taken place on day one with Supergrievances being attacked and forced into the same agreement.

The end result was the same and that is all that matters.

[WarriorConcept]

Good thread and discussions, thanks for this thread.

Funny seeing NPO complaining about the new world not being as nice as the one they were on top of however.

[JBone]

Greetings again, fellow national leaders of the 'verse. In keeping with my previous issuance on the subject of considering your behavior and remembering I thought I'd take some time to sit down and take a look at whatever it was that happened last week. I'll attempt to be serious but I'll also toss in some humor here and there to keep it spicy. Try and keep up. Criticism is always welcome as it feeds my ever-growing ego. For our lesson today we'll be covering the following points.

1. The cause(s) of the "war"

2. What happened during the "war"

3. Who lost the "war"?

4. So who actually won the "war"?

5. Where in the hell does this leave us?

Without further delay, we press forward.

1. The cause(s) of the "war"

This is one of those lovely moments when nobody is actually going to care about the truth regardless of what it is except for maybe me and a handful of other people out there. Let's be very clear concerning the cassus belli proposed by the governments of Athens and Ragnorok.

It was correct.

"But how, Shogun Tokugawa, do you know this?" you ask. Let's be pretty simple. I heard about this Zero Hour nonsense back in July when I was with The Sasori Initiative (I'll let you figure out who told me). Zero Hour was part of some grandiose scheme on the part of mhawk and other members of The Phoenix Federation's government to found random alliances, funnel new TPF recruits into them, build them up, cause some havoc with other alliances and then merge them back into TPF. I gave the opinion that this plan was stupid and would probably backfire since people don't like being barked at, especially over a voluntary activity such as participation in 'verse politics. I then heard about this plan again back in October from some Phoenix Federales who weren't too pleased with it and ventured that it might get them all killed. Now, I ask myself, why would they be worried about some plan that never came through? Go figure. Anyway, I turned out to be right in the end so I'm pleased as punch with myself as usual.

On top of the excuse for war so pleasantly provided by mhawk et al you have the usual warmongering nonsense from alliances like Athens who go on and on about sovereignty while infringing on the sovereignty of others while claiming its self defense or something equally silly (see the recent episode with the United Earth Directorate). They and theirs froth at the idea of a war almost to the point of not really thinking it through. Rabid ambition meets viable excuse and there you have it, like those terrible videos I show the younger members of my nation about human reproduction, you have the birth of some idiot child of a war.

2. What happened during the "war"

The Phoenix Federation got shot up pretty badly. Some people cried a lot. I was amused. I then fell asleep.

3. Who lost the "war"?

In a way we all did. There were some sides or coalitions or something involved in this mess, however, so let's take a peek at them.

The Phoenix Federation

Shot up, leader off visiting some island somewhere or something, and left out to dry by its allies in its time of needs. Either way you paint it, when an alliance has the person responsible for getting it rolled tootle off and then has all those wonderful people it stood up for sit around scratching their heads like a bunch of primates at the zoo waiting to be fed while hurling half-words it lost. Maybe the next time your government runs around shooting its collective mouth off (Kilkenny, I'm talking to you) it will remember precisely how much it's going to be backed up when the going gets rough. Good luck on this and, for pity's sake, cut it with the spy ops. It didn't work when you sent me out. It didn't work with Zero Hour. I'm sensing a trend here.

The SuperGrievances Coalition

Yes, I used the Athens flag. Why? Because it's pretty and I like it. Sue me.

You guys had a solid cassus belli beyond "Grrrrrr NPO" or "It was a tech raid, just a tech raid, why are you all so mad?". You had the guns, you had the ships, you had the screaming masses, you had the initiative. Why, exactly, did you cut and run at the last minute? Was it that someone saw through your battle plan, that the counter-attack wasn't aimed at Ragnorok to stop the massive dive of the Superfriends coming in and you realized you were in quite the pickle? Maybe it was some outstanding diplomacy on the part of Athens and Ragnorok which lost treaties with alliances because you were unwilling to do anything other than chomp at the bit? I doubt a straight answer will be provided. Needless to say, for a bunch of aggressor alliances to simply pack it in by saying "Ok, party's over, we're going home" without the usual hemming and hawwing along with the actual war which was so very advertised is pretty damned funny. Sure, y'all can win in a four-on-one surprise offensive but you lost a fight which was very much yours to win in the first place. Have fun with those victory marches, kids. May the enemy's looted tech bring your citizenry much added income.

Oh, and bungling the lead-up to the war with the half-hearted talks? Just don't bother if you don't want to avoid a war. It looks better. Be warmongers if you want to be warmongers.

The Coincidence Coalition

Why TOP's flag? Well, Liquid Mercury was sort of running the military side of things. But you weren't involved. Oh no, certainly not.

With the exceptions of Zenith and The Order Of Light, your showing was utterly and completely pathetic. TPF called on you within twenty-four hours of being attacked. Your response: you sat on your defensive obligations and did nothing except whine. When you were called to ask you tried to act cryptic and then whined some more. When you actually got off your collective rear ends and said you were going to do something you launched twenty-four offensive wars. Admin help me the day your coalition is the thing I'm relying on to back me up. I'd rather look to The German Empire for support and I'd be more likely to get it. You talked big, you strutted and sang your battle songs but when it came time to actually getting into line you all had something better to do. Like whine. And make OOC attacks (Ayrrie, this is the one time I've ever felt bad for you). And whine some more. And then show up late. Well done, lads, well done.

NEW, you should be especially ashamed. Not only did you completely wimp out after mhawk went to bat for you in these forums (right or wrong, he did take a stand) but you then started your usual raiding nonsense up as soon as the chance arose. Something about spots on a cheetah?

4. So who actually won the "war"?

This is the fun question. Here are my answers.

The Federation of Armed Nations

mpol was nice enough to show up, cancel the Pocahontas Accords and got roundly hailed for it. The points made in his statement were, as usual, wonderfully critical and terribly relevant, these one concerning the state of treaties within the 'verse and how utterly useless they all are these days. Pass the beers, fine escorts and cocaine on this one and chalk up a solid win.

The Killer Turtle Brigade

TKTB remains home to most of my favorite people in the 'verse and managed to not only not get involved in this "war" nonsense in any real shape but also protected me from some huffing and puffing from people who decided that they'd heard things which weren't exactly the case, got bent and decided they wanted to "chat". James, you're cool so you guys get the winner's circle on this one. Get that sneaky git Kharn, the ever-charming Mask of Blue and Her Loveliness Mia into the alliance and you're good as gold.

The New Pacific Order

There was a war, an excuse to start shooting, and the rather obvious opportunity for some people to go out and gun up Pacifica while its "protectors" were otherwise occupied. This didn't occur. In fact, Emperor Cortath was able to make a rather excellent announcement, Sir Paul released one of his top-rate assessments of the Order and Bilrow continued to cause people to get upset. This qualifies as an outstanding achievement. Victory ribbons should be issued post-haste. Or pizza. Something like that.

Overclockers UK

Same as FAN, plus the flag is cool so I wanted to use it. Congratulations on getting out of the mess of treaties and whatnot.

\m/

You guys didn't disband! That's a win for you! Woohoo!

5. Where in the hell does this leave us?

Sadly, right where it all started unless someone was actually paying attention (unlikely). Treaties are effectively meaningless, the citizenry of the 'verse will whine and complain and nothing will actually be done. But how, oh wise Toku, shall we escape this cycle? Easy.

Stop buying into it.

Too much time is taken up by the whining of a bunch of self-important fools like mhawk and Londo. You have that person you always wanted to nuke? Nuke 'em. You don't like that person who keeps being mouthy with you? Declare a vendetta and try to get them nuked. Pick a mission, get on that mission and don't apologize for it. Don't be like a typical politician - stand your ground and be proud when someone takes issue with what you're doing. For pity's sake, courage isn't a bad thing!

Once again, if you finished reading this good for you. Comments, as always, are welcome and autographs will be signed in my IRC channel. Leave your comments below and I'll address them if I feel like it.

Take care of yourselves, and each other.

o/

Shogun Tokugawa Mitsukuni

Pyramid Scottish Assault Squadron

Well written, fairly humorous and not totally inaccurate.

I will however take exception to the following:

1. It didn't work when you sent me out. If by sent you out, you mean, you volunteering information to Slayer regarding an alliance we were at war with, then yes.

2. TPF called on you within twenty-four hours of being attacked. Your response: you sat on your defensive obligations and did nothing except whine. Allies were called on publicly within 24 hours, this however has no bearing on private communications subsequent to that fact which may have altered that call.

3. NEW, you should be especially ashamed. NEW were one of the more difficult AAs to keep in check while this war was unfolding. They wanted nothing more than to hurl themselves into the conflict, guns a blazing. They were asked to stand down and have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Although I think this was more of a cheap shot than seriousness on your part.

All in all.......an enjoyable read from the vast majority of contributors.

EDIT: that /=/ than

Edited January 9, 2010 by JBone

[Coven]

I think this thread is eating my brain.

People who have no involvement whatsoever in politics shouldn't speculate based on nothing at all. You sound like you're interested in Planet Bob politics, why not try getting involved in it?

If you don't understand this post, I'm probably talking about you.

I love you Haflinger.

[shahenshah]

NEW was amongst the first alliance all-ready to go out all guns and bombs. My respect for them has only increased since the war.

[magicninja]

1. Yeah I thought the CB was valid and I spent over a year with TPF and like the guys who are there. Should diplomacy have been used more in the beginning? Sure, I guess Athens and RoK and friends coulda went to TPF with the evidence and said WTF? Also, until this is resolved any move to peacemode will THEN result in an instant DoW but oh well they did what they felt they had to do and I won;t hold it against them.

2. Yeah TPF took some damage.

3. Well on this note the only ones that really lost anything was TPF but hey pixels can be rebuilt. Why do white peace? Athens and RoK and friends got to beat up the people who wronged them for a week with no real damage done to themselves or any of their allies. It also showed that this war was only ever about TPF regardless of the paranoia of some alliances on the other side. We laughed at thinking what egos they must have to think that any little conflict must be a plot to get them. Make no mistake about it, CoC woulda lost this fight. Sure their peacemode strategy was tricky but easily countered by "Supergrievances" doing the opposite and bringing the fight back down to where the numbers advantage was back on our side. All their strategy and subsequently our counter did was cut TOP in half and toss a good chunk of their fighting power out the window. Of course they agreed to white peace after seeing their chances go out the window. Also, let's be honest, not attacking RoK showed just how scared of Polar TOP really is. Can't say I blame them.

4. Eh the only thing that won is politics. Count on more maneuvering to get sided up before Summer.

5. It leaves us about 2 minutes to midnight on the Doomsday Clock. Something will happen and I doubt anyone will hold back next time.

[LiquidMercury]

3. No. On many various levels. Why would we fear polaris? We love us some polaris.

[magicninja]

3. No. On many various levels. Why would we fear polaris? We love us some polaris.

Not what it looks like to me and it may just be that, an appearance. Appearances can be deceiving of course but sometimes it is what it seems to be. There's no other real explanation. You guys didn't want to bring in another huge bit of the web against you and that's fine but it shows how desperate and afraid you really were. Imo of course. Take it as that.

[LiquidMercury]

Not what it looks like to me and it may just be that, an appearance. Appearances can be deceiving of course but sometimes it is what it seems to be. There's no other real explanation. You guys didn't want to bring in another huge bit of the web against you and that's fine but it shows how desperate and afraid you really were. Imo of course. Take it as that.

Appearances can be deceiving as you said. Last I checked though we weren't afraid or desperate for anything other then the world becoming more of a tech sellers world instead of a buyers world.

[JWConner]

Not what it looks like to me and it may just be that, an appearance. Appearances can be deceiving of course but sometimes it is what it seems to be. There's no other real explanation. You guys didn't want to bring in another huge bit of the web against you and that's fine but it shows how desperate and afraid you really were. Imo of course. Take it as that.

Being afraid of them and respecting them are much different. Considering the point of our strategy was to win, why would we use a plan that brought in an alliance like NpO, who would have certainly made the objective of winning this war much, much harder?

I mean, it couldn't have been that our strategy was to come out victorious here, could it?

[Fantastico]

Being afraid of them and respecting them are much different. Considering the point of our strategy was to win, why would we use a plan that brought in an alliance like NpO, who would have certainly made the objective of winning this war much, much harder?

I mean, it couldn't have been that our strategy was to come out victorious here, could it?

This is an interesting statement regarding how you view the state in which things were before the war, as well as how you view the status of the war today.

I, for one, thank you for your honesty, perhaps in the hope that some real resolution of this war may yet be reached.

[magicninja]

Being afraid of them and respecting them are much different. Considering the point of our strategy was to win, why would we use a plan that brought in an alliance like NpO, who would have certainly made the objective of winning this war much, much harder?

I mean, it couldn't have been that our strategy was to come out victorious here, could it?

Like I said. Desperate. Alliances who are not desperate don't need to do the things you guys did JW. I understand it but can't say it suits you guys.

[magicninja]

Edit: Nice time for an IPS error

Edited January 11, 2010 by magicninja

[Dochartaigh]

Being afraid of them and respecting them are much different. Considering the point of our strategy was to win, why would we use a plan that brought in an alliance like NpO, who would have certainly made the objective of winning this war much, much harder?

I mean, it couldn't have been that our strategy was to come out victorious here, could it?

at worst ya'll would have ended up in a draw with TPF even smaller than they currently are. at best, SG would have won. i honestly doubt there was the chance that ya'll would win unless those on SG's side did what CC did and sit out for about a week before entering. essentially, if this has gone full blown, ya'll would also have had to avoid hitting MK as well since that would draw in Polaris, STA, NV, Genesis, and Gremlins to SG's side. Not to mention GR and IAA as well since both of those alliances would also bring in Polaris. which would leave RoK, MK, GR, and IAA untouched all in the hopes of getting Polaris on your side. i mean in essence at first ya'lls plan was good but if you had kept to it, ya'll would be leaving many alliances on SG's side alone in order to avoid bringing in select alliances. i mean to avoid bringing in Polaris on your side, our side would have to have avoided hitting only UPN.

so again, the strategy ya'll were employing including the PM strat was only temporary and while tactically sound would only last so long before it hindered ya'll severely.