The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[519 Nigras]

Yup, absofrickinlutely.

I'm not exactly sure what you were implying in your snide remark, but we don't bail on treaty partners or cancel on people because war beckons.

edit: grammar

Just curious, what DO you do?

[tamerlane]

This e-peening about whether or not TPF was ever at war with Athens specifically is a colossal red herring.

It wasn't TPF or any Hegemony alliance that decided to lump all Karma alliances in as one side. It was Karma alliances themselves - who with their terms of surrender to their enemies - set the precedent of grouping all Karma alliances together as one side by including a clause strictly forbidding the surrendering alliance(s) from attacking any Karma alliance until terms expire.

Anyone with even a modicum of intellectual integrity and the most very basic of mental faculties can see that TPF was simply operating within the paradigm created by and presented to them and their allies by Karma themselves when brainstorming about a possible spy operation. Which was invalidated as a legit CB anyway by Karma themselves at the beginning of that war.

Through the karmic magnifecence that is the Law of Unintended Consequences- Karma has already invalidated any and all possible ways for this to be a CB.

But I don't care. This is the first bit of fun since the last war and I'm happy about it. Even if it is like living a facepalm.

Hope you didn't like that hat.

I agree that the status of Athens and TPF with regards to the war is a red herring. What I dont agree with is your attempt to validate your alliance's actions by saying "it was war".

TPF used unorthodox and deceptive tactics that are, in almost every case I can remember, valid causes for war. Just because you happened to be at war with Karma at the time it was drafted does not absolve you from being punished for putting the plan in motion. Yes, it was war but last I checked, people get punished for doing stuff that is considered unorthodox. I believe it was TPF who was quite alright when MK was severely punished for "oh no!" first striking. Now we may have received our punishment a bit earlier but that is only because we couldn't hide what we had done. Not only that, you lack any convicting evidence that the plans were indeed called off. Just some weak logs and a rather crappy back story. No, you just swept your sinister schemes under the rug hoping that everyone would keep a tight lip. Welp, they didn't and your failure to disclose these schemes during your surrender has landed you your rightly deserved punishment.

Edited December 28, 2009 by tamerlane

[Roadie]

I agree that the status of Athens and TPF with regards to the war is a red herring. What I dont agree with is your attempt to validate your alliance's actions by saying "it was war".

TPF used unorthodox and deceptive tactics that are, in almost every case I can remember, valid causes for war. Just because you happened to be at war with Karma at the time it was drafted does not absolve you from being punished for putting the plan in motion. Yes, it was war but last I checked, people get punished for doing stuff that is considered unorthodox. I believe it was TPF who was quite alright when MK was severely punished for "oh no!" first striking. Now we may have received our punishment a bit earlier but that is only because we couldn't hide what we had done. Not only that, you lack any convicting evidence that the plans were indeed called off. Just some weak logs and a rather crappy back story. No, you just swept your sinister schemes under the rug hoping that everyone would keep a tight lip. Welp, they didn't and your failure to disclose these schemes during your surrender has landed you your rightly deserved punishment.

This is an incorrect assessment of the point I was making. Please let me try to make myself a little clearer.

My point was not one of justification: I was simply pointing out why - to those arguing so - this issues validity as a CB is in fact not.

As far as validation goes, there is no cause for validation as there never was an op. It was discussed, talked about, kicked around, whatever one would like to call it, but at no point was either TPF or ZH ever engaged in said op.

What the logs show backs up fully what we've been saying. The possibility of doing an op was talked about as a way to handle a perma-war if the Karma turned into one for us. The possibility obviously vanished when ZH said they didn't want to do it. No further ops were discussed after that and very soon after a peace agreement was reached.

If after reading this thread you still are convinced otherwise this is no longer a matter of anything less than faith. I am not one whom can convince someone of anything opposite their beliefs once they've taken their leap of faith nor am I even remotely interested in tainting someones religion with fact.

[ThatFALGuy]

<<snip>>

TPF used unorthodox and deceptive tactics that are, in almost every case I can remember, valid causes for war. Just because you happened to be at war with Karma at the time it was drafted does not absolve you from being punished for putting the plan in motion.

<<snip>>

Define "used" please? Where I come from, the context in which you use it infers that they actually formed a plan and executed it, not that they talked about the idea and it floundered at just about light speed, never to be enacted in any way shape and or form.

Do you have any proof, be it weaksauce like the CB or real and truthful that this idea was ever carried out even in the slightest?

Considering that ZH was half of this potential issue and took it upon themselves to "come clean" about this all, they "should" in my opinion have some sort of evidence or at least truthful admittance that they carried out this act.

ZH, what say you? You want to be a group of upstanding fine folks, well...be upstanding then. Present to us the final nail and not this mediocre "TPF didn't like you six months ago when they were fighting your side" !@#$.

It still stands with all the "evidence", hearsay, etc... that TPF had an idea for inflicting damage on their enemies during a war, war ended, idea vanished like Amelia Earhart, never to be heard from again until ZH decided it was time for some sort of revenge on behalf of Athens. Athens has in my opinion become just another puppet to a jaded alliance looking out for their own interests.

[rem150292]

TPF we all know that this is their excuse to keep power-housing from karma and they just want to hit us more!

[ThatFALGuy]

I also have to ask, when, where and why exactly is spying unorthodox, even in peace time, though especially at war time? Lord Admin has seen to it that we be free to spy by other means, or at least free in terms of personal alliances stance on the act.

I can see it being labled an act of war, when it is peace time, but how do you exactly commit an act of war, when at war? Everything you do at that point that is not solely intended to create peace only, IS an act of war. To label it an "unorthodox" act of war, 'scuse me? Maybe you have never noticed that cute little button that allows you to take nukes and cash, amongst other things, away from others in this world....

If'n you kids are all just bored and hatin' on TPF, grow some cajones, be original and just say so. Don't hide behind this silly !@#$, it is not very becoming of you though makes for good fireside giggle fodder.

[AirMe]

You know, this discussion has been entertaining for the sheer amount of analogies people have come up with to defend their side.

Edited December 29, 2009 by AirMe

[Mixoux]

TPF we all know that this is their excuse to keep power-housing from karma and they just want to hit us more!

Nothing gets past you!

[tamerlane]

This is an incorrect assessment of the point I was making. Please let me try to make myself a little clearer.

My point was not one of justification: I was simply pointing out why - to those arguing so - this issues validity as a CB is in fact not.

As far as validation goes, there is no cause for validation as there never was an op. It was discussed, talked about, kicked around, whatever one would like to call it, but at no point was either TPF or ZH ever engaged in said op.

What the logs show backs up fully what we've been saying. The possibility of doing an op was talked about as a way to handle a perma-war if the Karma turned into one for us. The possibility obviously vanished when ZH said they didn't want to do it. No further ops were discussed after that and very soon after a peace agreement was reached.

If after reading this thread you still are convinced otherwise this is no longer a matter of anything less than faith. I am not one whom can convince someone of anything opposite their beliefs once they've taken their leap of faith nor am I even remotely interested in tainting someones religion with fact.

The point I am trying to say is that the logs don't do a very good job given the ambiguity and style of the operation. My point is, and has been, that you should have just come clean about the entire thing the minute you began encountering problems with ZH - and probably before that. There would have been no war and ZH would not have had the ability to cause your alliance, if that is indeed what they are doing, this kind of harm.

(Chimay, this part is also directed at you)

Now you are asking people to weigh your word against theirs. The faith game goes for both sides but I happen to think the security of my fellow brother in arms, Athens, is more important than the word and excuses of your alliance as, in my opinion, the evidence against the charges that has been provided by you is ambiguous at best.I m sure your friends feel the same way about you too. It looks like we're gonna have to settle this Old Western style.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tamerlane

[Warden]

I would like to voice my support for TPF and their response to the unjust accusations set agaisnt them. I am shocked that TPF is accused of spying, something i myself could never see TPF ever condoning. I don't see this as a just reason to war, as TPF would not spy on any alliance. The fact that they are accused of this and declared on I do not condone, nor give any support. It is a low and malicious thing to do, to accuse an alliance of something that they did not do. Any respect that I have had for RoK and others that support this accusation is gone. It makes me sick to think about these accusations. Shame on all of you for accusing TPF of something that they would never condone in any possible situation.

[Haflinger]

You know, this discussion has been entertain for the sheer amount of analogies people have come up with to defend their side.

This statement is exactly like a butterfly in a glass house.

[tamerlane]

I would like to voice my support for TPF and their response to the unjust accusations set agaisnt them. I am shocked that TPF is accused of spying, something i myself could never see TPF ever condoning. I don't see this as a just reason to war, as TPF would not spy on any alliance. The fact that they are accused of this and declared on I do not condone, nor give any support. It is a low and malicious thing to do, to accuse an alliance of something that they did not do. Any respect that I have had for RoK and others that support this accusation is gone. It makes me sick to think about these accusations. Shame on all of you for accusing TPF of something that they would never condone in any possible situation.

Which is why they discussed spying as a means of continuing the Karma war in the first place? :psy?:

edit**<-- What happened to psyduck?**

Edited December 29, 2009 by tamerlane

[mythicknight]

Which is why they discussed spying as a means of continuing the Karma war in the first place? :psy?:

edit**<-- What happened to psyduck?**

happened.

[ThatFALGuy]

The point I am trying to say is that the logs don't do a very good job given the ambiguity and style of the operation. My point is, and has been, that you should have just come clean about the entire thing the minute you began encountering problems with ZH - and probably before that. There would have been no war and ZH would not have had the ability to cause your alliance, if that is indeed what they are doing, this kind of harm.

(Chimay, this part is also directed at you)

Now you are asking people to weigh your word against theirs. The faith game goes for both sides but I happen to think the security of my fellow brother in arms, Athens, is more important than the word and excuses of your alliance as, in my opinion, the evidence against the charges that has been provided by you is ambiguous at best.I m sure your friends feel the same way about you too. It looks like we're gonna have to settle this Old Western style.

I am not asking you to weigh my word or anyone else' for that matter against anything. You state they used the tactic, I merely ask for at least an inkling of proof? There is plenty that they talked about it long ago, there is plenty (at least this point is in my opinion) that this is an act of vengeance on the part of ZH, but I and all else have yet to see where it was ever carried out. I could understand the sad feeling in Athens pants if they found out they were spied on, regardless if they are my treaty partners or not, they could be labled asshats at minimum. But this still boils down to one alliance talking about performoing an act upon another alliance, then never following through in any form. I call that thought crime, 6 month old thought crime. In terms of time here on Bob, we are talking years old.

I would love to provide proof that they never used it, but how do you prove something that never happened? If they did it, if they took it beyond simple talk, then there should be something more substantial than "he said, she said" shouldn't there?

[Lord Razzia]

Oh god... we were that TOOL protectorate.

O__O

[BamaBuc]

TPF, you know where I stand. Acta Non Verba.

Dammit, I never change my avatar from Halloween, did I?

-Bama

[Steinfeld]

Fully expected, Zero Hour.

Your alliance is full of a bunch of nutcases, and you're lucky, I'm being diplomatic.

OOC: DrunkMonkey - you have drunk queried both Shurukian and I and have said some very hurtful things that I will not divulge. This will not be forgotten, and this will be payed back in full. I don't care who has your back, enough is enough.

Also, Skyyberry, get out of peace mode, honey.

get some

[Penkala]

TPF, you know where I stand. Acta Non Verba.

Dammit, I never change my avatar from Halloween, did I?

-Bama

Well thus far it's been Verba Non Acta. Day two and still no sign of TPF's allies.

[Il Impero Romano]

Well thus far it's been Verba Non Acta. Day two and still no sign of TPF's allies.

Letting them burn while they get another few days of warchest. Amazing.

[Sandwich Controversy]

I would like to voice my support for TPF and their response to the unjust accusations set agaisnt them. I am shocked that TPF is accused of spying, something i myself could never see TPF ever condoning. I don't see this as a just reason to war, as TPF would not spy on any alliance. The fact that they are accused of this and declared on I do not condone, nor give any support. It is a low and malicious thing to do, to accuse an alliance of something that they did not do. Any respect that I have had for RoK and others that support this accusation is gone. It makes me sick to think about these accusations. Shame on all of you for accusing TPF of something that they would never condone in any possible situation.

GOOD, NOW SUPPORT THEM MILITARILY

[HeroicDisaster]

Letting them burn while they get another few days of warchest. Amazing.

Or they are legitimately preparing, seeing as you can not get an entire alliance ready for war on a whim. Especially if the war comes totally out of left field.

Edited December 29, 2009 by HeroicDisaster

[TypoNinja]

Or they are legitimately preparing, seeing as you can not get an entire alliance ready for war on a whim. Especially if the war comes totally out of left field.

If it takes you more than one day to mobilize your alliance for war, its time to fire your MoD.

[Penkala]

Or they are legitimately preparing, seeing as you can not get an entire alliance ready for war on a whim. Especially if the war comes totally out of left field.

It's been two days since the DoW, and TPF knew war was coming before the DoW (could have only been a few minutes, not sure.)

You can organize a war in 2 days. Everyone else has been able to do it.

[Zizka]

Or they are legitimately preparing, seeing as you can not get an entire alliance ready for war on a whim. Especially if the war comes totally out of left field.

They should already have been ready for war. "Final preps" should take a day at most, if that.

[Trinite]

It's like TPF put ZH into a trojan horse. Then they moved the horse behind the walls, but the war ended and the horse was still there, but the guys in the horse never really liked Agememnon. Though they might have been dating. So after the peace the trojan's made friends with the guys in the horse and the horse guys told them about what the greeks had planned. So the trojans attacked them. Then the greeks said, "but we had peace", and the the trojans were like, "but we didn't know you had planned this dastardly plot behind our walls. Also you were technically fighting the... uh Macedonian Kings. And we didn't have any idea we should have been involved in those talks because we didn't know about this horse." So then the greeks allies were like, "that's totally not a valid reason," and then the trojan's allies were like "we disagree," and then the greek's allies didn't really do anything, but it's totally just like that. Analagies are so fun.