The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Bob Janova]

There is no blanket "you are absolved of everything you may or may not have done to anyone who may or may not have been at war with you" clause in peace terms

Maybe not, but we're not talking unrelated alliances here. The peace terms say: "The Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma". The cessation of a war between two parties means that any and all hostile acts that took place during that war are determined to be closed. Athens (the only alliance against whom any plan was even begun; I'm not quite sure why RoK and GOD are fighting since the only thing in their logs seems to be a discussion of a possible plan that was never enacted) was a member of Karma and in that war.

At least in terms of "I know I'm probably going to end up at war with them anyway, so I've got nothing to lose by doing this."

This has always been the case with espionage.

[Haflinger]

My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war.

Yeah, it has been. Or did you miss where Karma alliances pressured people to declare peace with FAN despite their widespread use of this tactic, in some cases successfully forcing alliances to disband?

The reason why FAN is arguing on TPF's side here is because they do not want this precedent to be used against them. If conspiring against an alliance who FAN isn't officially at war with is a CB, then down the road there are a ton of alliances that are going to be able to declare on them.

[Voodoo Nova]

Yeah, it has been. Or did you miss where Karma alliances pressured people to declare peace with FAN despite their widespread use of this tactic, in some cases successfully forcing alliances to disband?

Haf, no one can force an alliance to disband.

[ThatFALGuy]

Yeah, it has been. Or did you miss where Karma alliances pressured people to declare peace with FAN despite their widespread use of this tactic, in some cases successfully forcing alliances to disband?

The reason why FAN is arguing on TPF's side here is because they do not want this precedent to be used against them. If conspiring against an alliance who FAN isn't officially at war with is a CB, then down the road there are a ton of alliances that are going to be able to declare on them.

A beautiful example of the current hypocricy at it's finest.

One could say that the precedent set with this little debacle will open the door to much more than just simple things like wanting to spy an alliance. I see it opening the door to basically anything you want.... which is awesome really.

[WorkingClassRuler]

It's one or the other, either the options specifically exist or they don't. You have contradicted yourself here. You first argued or stated that spying is not part of the game mechanics because there was not a specific option for it. Now some things are ok without the specific option, just by utilizing a backdoor? There still is no option to PZI, even though you can achieve that by keeping a person in war. There is also no option to infiltrate, though you can achieve that just by... doing it?

I personally am of the mind that spying, while !@#$%*, is a viable wartime tactic. It doesn't have to be nice, it's war. You don't have to like it, it's war.

I am insulted that you accuse me of random insults. There was nothing random about my insult, it was pretty specific and apparently dead on.

Well I will correct one portion of my earlier statement. It is possible to infiltrate an alliance by joining their Affiliation. But to actually get inside their-inner sanctum, their government, their private information, would require long-term planning and organization to access their headquarters. As would actively working to destroy the alliance from the inside - again, this cannot be done from your nation. All the options you gave me were perfectly within the capabilities of Foamtopia. Spying and infiltration is not. Is the difference clear now?

The point, which you have also largely missed, is that many alliances (Athens, for example) do not think that what TPF did was normal or perfectly fine. Hence they have attacked TPF for it. There are plenty of other responses in this thread that echo this sentiment. Some of us still like to operate with a level of integrity and honesty.

Again with the insults. Say it enough times and maybe it'll be true, but you are cheapening your arguments.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[ThatFALGuy]

Haf, no one can force an alliance to disband.

I think this is subjective. You can fracture and cause unrest to the point that it is forced to finally disband. We have seen this probably hundreds of times on Bob. It's not a "stickemup, gimme ur muney" kind of thing, but it is forced.

[Hogosha]

Committing an act of war against someone is a punishable act, even if there happens to be another larger war on at the time.

Really? Let's say we're at war. You fire cruise missiles (among other things) at me. I end up winning the war and you pay me some reps for a time. As soon as the reps are done, I turn around and say "You fired cruise missiles at me during the last war! That''s an act of war! Because of this, I declare war!"

By your logic, this is a perfectly valid CB.

This would all have taken place sooner, I am sure, had the information become more readily available earlier, but you go to war because of the intel you have, not the intel you might have had.

You're sure? You mean that you're also as sure that the fact the TPF *just* got done paying their reps had nothing to do with the timing?

[ThatFALGuy]

Well I will correct one portion of my earlier statement. It is possible to infiltrate an alliance [ooc:]in game[/ooc] by joining their Affiliation. But to actually get inside their-inner sanctum, their government, their private information, would require long-term planning and organization to access their headquarters. As would actively working to destroy the alliance from the inside - again, this cannot be done from your nation. All the options you gave me were perfectly within the capabilities of Foamtopia. Spying and infiltration is not. Is the difference clear now?

The point, which you have also largely missed, is that many alliances (Athens, for example) do not think that what TPF did was normal or perfectly fine. Hence they have attacked TPF for it. There are plenty of other responses in this thread that echo this sentiment. Some of us still like to operate with a level of integrity and honesty.

Again with the insults. Say it enough times and maybe it'll be true, but you are cheapening your arguments.

So to be clear, you state that if it is not in a panel or option somewhere on your nation, it can not and is not part of the game? I will concede abusing another option to get your results as viable, I am just curious what you do about the countless other decisions and actions you take in the name of your nation that are not part of the game itself.

I will ask you as well, what is your view on "thought crimes"? Should a person or whole alliance be held accountable for thinking or talking about wanting to do something with the final outcome being no action taken? Mind you, ZH was happening, spy plans or not. They were not formed with the sole reason or even part of the reason being for spying.

There was the plans for the forming of alliance, ZH, then there was Mhawk asking them a favor.

[Voodoo Nova]

You're sure? You mean that you're also as sure that the fact the TPF *just* got done paying their reps had nothing to do with the timing?

TPF got released from their terms on October 4th. 2 month and 25 days is quite a bit of time there.

[Bob Janova]

The point, which you have also largely missed, is that many alliances (Athens, for example) do not think that what TPF did was normal or perfectly fine

I don't think anyone thinks that, but lots of 'not perfectly fine' things happen in war, and as long as they do not persist after peace is reached, they should not then be justification to fight another war.

[ChairmanHal]

78 pages and it appears the only "justification" for the CB is the remarkably thin reed that Athens was not technically at war with TPF. If that point is conceded by the hallowed heroes of Karma, the CB crumbles.

Wow. The more things change....

Read. Recognize.

Article I ~ Surrender

The Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, and the Greenland Republic.

The coalition known as "Karma" granted peace to TPF. All those attacking TPF at the moment, save for \m/, were part of that coalition.

Article II ~ ZI lists and wars

TPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned. TPF releases all claims on all alliances (including surrender terms but not treaty partners) and alliance affiliations other than The Phoenix Federation and applicable applicant alliance affiliations.

No offensive war or spy attack may be launched against any nation except ghosts and rogues against TPF for the duration of these terms, under the provisions outlined in Article IV.

TPF ended all spy operations and was declared in compliance with treaty terms and was later released from terms.

So in indeed things are as you say, then it seems clear there is no CB left. Then again, I'm not an apologist for this war.

[Letum]

My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war.

Actually, it has. It was vociferously opposed by the "high powers" in WUT/Q, but various alliances and groups, from the CoaLUEtion to FAN and Vox have used infiltration during war. There is a consensus that it is an underhanded war tactic, but a war tactic nonetheless, and not something that can be used as an excuse for such shameless aggression.

[saxasm]

Actually, it has. It was vociferously opposed by the "high powers" in WUT/Q, but various alliances and groups, from the CoaLUEtion to FAN and Vox have used infiltration during war. There is a consensus that it is an underhanded war tactic, but a war tactic nonetheless, and not something that can be used as an excuse for such shameless aggression.

You, sir, are accomplished in the art of putting yourself as a representative of public opinion while saying something entirely else.

[WorkingClassRuler]

So to be clear, you state that if it is not in a panel or option somewhere on your nation, it can not and is not part of the game? I will concede abusing another option to get your results as viable, I am just curious what you do about the countless other decisions and actions you take in the name of your nation that are not part of the game itself.

I will ask you as well, what is your view on "thought crimes"? Should a person or whole alliance be held accountable for thinking or talking about wanting to do something with the final outcome being no action taken? Mind you, ZH was happening, spy plans or not. They were not formed with the sole reason or even part of the reason being for spying.

There was the plans for the forming of alliance, ZH, then there was Mhawk asking them a favor.

No, no, not saying that it's not part of the game - saying that it's not a normal (or typical, common, every day) war option. The IRON member was seemingly stating that spying and infiltration was an acceptable option during war, I was (albeit facetiously) saying that such an option wasn't present on my nation. And by doing so, I was pointing out that while some people/alliances seem to think such attacks (it is an attack, not just a tactic), are perfectly acceptable during war, I certainly did not. Athens apparently does not either. And we're not just talking about spying either - the accusation is that TPF wanted to wreck Athens from the inside and destroy their alliance, which is simply going well beyond simple nation-to-nation fighting and there's nothing honorable or fun about that.

I suppose where we differ is that you believe no action was taken on their plans. Even if it is a giant coincidence that TPF wanted to create a splinter alliance to become Athens' protectorate, merge into them, then destroy them from the inside - and that a TPF splinter alliance was created and did become an Athens' protectorate, then you have still conceded that at some point, Mhawk asked ZH to commit a very horrible act of treachery and deceit, which would have been (in their planning) enacted outside of war-time - if you take into account that the TPF/ZH members were released and given peace, then the months required to build ZH, have it fail, merge into Athens, then destroy them from the inside. And at no time was that plan called off by Mhawk, it stopped merely because of a falling out between himself and ZH.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[silentkiller]

No, no, not saying that it's not part of the game - saying that it's not a normal (or typical, common, every day) war option. The IRON member was seemingly stating that spying and infiltration was an acceptable option during war, I was (albeit facetiously) saying that such an option wasn't present on my nation. And by doing so, I was pointing out that while some people/alliances seem to think such attacks (it is an attack, not just a tactic), are perfectly acceptable during war, I certainly did not. Athens apparently does not either. And we're not just talking about spying either - the accusation is that TPF wanted to wreck Athens from the inside and destroy their alliance, which is simply going well beyond simple nation-to-nation fighting and there's nothing honorable or fun about that.

I suppose where we differ is that you believe no action was taken on their plans. Even if it is a giant coincidence that TPF wanted to create a splinter alliance to become Athens' protectorate, merge into them, then destroy them from the inside - and that a TPF splinter alliance was created and did become an Athens' protectorate, then you have still conceded that at some point, Mhawk asked ZH to commit a very horrible act of treachery and deceit, which would have been (in their planning) enacted outside of war-time - if you take into account that the TPF/ZH members were released and given peace, then the months required to build ZH, have it fail, merge into Athens, then destroy them from the inside. And at no time was that plan called off by Mhawk, it stopped merely because of a falling out between himself and ZH.

Athens did not like it either? They sure didnt make that obvious while supporting Fan, vox in their ops. And the op was cancelled before TPF surrendered. you know before TPF stated that it would not take agressive actions be it spying, ingame war against anyone. Not to mention that TPF thought it would be in an eternal war, and no not eternal because they didnt have peace offering on the table but eternal because they thought NPO would'nt get peace(who could blame them after we were told that there would be no peace without the 2 week war clause in the ToS).

Edited December 29, 2009 by silentkiller

[WorkingClassRuler]

Athens did not like it either? They sure didnt make that obvious while supporting Fan, vox in their ops. And the op was cancelled before TPF surrendered. you know before TPF stated that it would not take agressive actions be it spying, ingame war against anyone. Not to mention that TPF thought it would be in an eternal war, and no not eternal because they didnt have peace offering on the table but eternal because they thought NPO would'nt get peace(who could blame them after we were told that there would be no peace without the 2 week war clause in the ToS).

So did a lot of people, FAN and Vox were rather entertaining. But I don't think they all went out and started spying on people because FAN and Vox made it cool. I got a few chuckles out of TWiP, and I certainly didn't turn to infiltrating alliances.

Perhaps I have missed it, and I ask with all sincerity, where is it posted/proven that Mhawk specifically cancelled the op because he was now at peace with Karma? I have seen in the OP here that it was more or less abandoned because he fell out with ZH members, but not specifically cancelled because they were at peace.

[Dochartaigh]

Athens did not like it either? They sure didnt make that obvious while supporting Fan, vox in their ops. And the op was cancelled before TPF surrendered. you know before TPF stated that it would not take agressive actions be it spying, ingame war against anyone. Not to mention that TPF thought it would be in an eternal war, and no not eternal because they didnt have peace offering on the table but eternal because they thought NPO would'nt get peace(who could blame them after we were told that there would be no peace without the 2 week war clause in the ToS).

finding things amusing=/=supporting. seriously enough with that dribble. i never saw Athens at war with NPO for FAN or Vox, so you would have a point if Athens went to war to defend FAN or Vox, but they never did. thus, your point is invalid.

i also find it amusing that NPO kept FAN and Vox at war for so long partially due to the spying bit and are now saying it is acceptable behavior? hypocrites much? i truly find it amusing that NPO are so hypocritical when it comes to anything certain alliances do. hey despite no treaties at least NPO has been more loyal of an ally than TPF was to NPO. that does honestly deserve a o/ NPO.

[ThatFALGuy]

So did a lot of people, FAN and Vox were rather entertaining. But I don't think they all went out and started spying on people because FAN and Vox made it cool. I got a few chuckles out of TWiP, and I certainly didn't turn to infiltrating alliances.

Perhaps I have missed it, and I ask with all sincerity, where is it posted/proven that Mhawk specifically cancelled the op because he was now at peace with Karma? I have seen in the OP here that it was more or less abandoned because he fell out with ZH members, but not specifically cancelled because they were at peace.

There is none and would be moot in itself as the OP was abandoned some time before peace was declared, not on account that peace was declared and not on the day it was declared.

As well, as outlined in various threads and log dumps, the case for this spying was to be had during war, the war that TPF was with very good reason, to believe would likely be perpetual, hence the VietTPF name. There is no indicator that it was to be carried out after war was done or at any other time that perpetual war was on the horizon. Actually, the fact that it ceased and was not pursued with ZH or any others merely lends to it having been a thought, possibly a bad thought and abandoned post haste. If TPF really had such a hard on for Athens, the spying would have continued, ZH may have been contacted to try to persuede them to get back on with the idea, it never happened though. ZH said they changed their minds, TPF moved on, idea null.

[silentkiller]

So did a lot of people, FAN and Vox were rather entertaining. But I don't think they all went out and started spying on people because FAN and Vox made it cool. I got a few chuckles out of TWiP, and I certainly didn't turn to infiltrating alliances.

Perhaps I have missed it, and I ask with all sincerity, where is it posted/proven that Mhawk specifically cancelled the op because he was now at peace with Karma? I have seen in the OP here that it was more or less abandoned because he fell out with ZH members, but not specifically cancelled because they were at peace.

01[22:53] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> Yohan & I have to talk to hawk as soon as TPF accepts peace

[22:53] <Beernuts|Away> aboot?

01[22:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> the op

01[22:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> we're pulling out

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry2058575

There you go.

The point is that it was cancelled before TPF got peace, thus invalidating the whole "we are under threat argument"

[ThatFALGuy]

finding things amusing=/=supporting. seriously enough with that dribble. i never saw Athens at war with NPO for FAN or Vox, so you would have a point if Athens went to war to defend FAN or Vox, but they never did. thus, your point is invalid.

i also find it amusing that NPO kept FAN and Vox at war for so long partially due to the spying bit and are now saying it is acceptable behavior? hypocrites much? i truly find it amusing that NPO are so hypocritical when it comes to anything certain alliances do. hey despite no treaties at least NPO has been more loyal of an ally than TPF was to NPO. that does honestly deserve a o/ NPO.

Then there is that whole, the spying never happened bit. I know that is minor to someone with a single mindset, but it IS there.

I dunno, I feel there is a difference in the talk, planning and even hopes of implementing a spy operation and actually carrying it out. I'm not sure anymore, but it seems different to me.

[Letum]

also find it amusing that NPO kept FAN and Vox at war for so long partially due to the spying bit and are now saying it is acceptable behavior? hypocrites much? i truly find it amusing that NPO are so hypocritical when it comes to anything certain alliances do.

Hypocrisy? The Karma war was not extended or terms made harsher due to this. An entirely new war was started months later over an already resolved conflict. There is no hypocrisy here, just us calling out a thinly veiled act of aggression. Pacifica's stance on spying has not changed - if we were in a war against an enemy using underhanded tactics, we would likely retaliate during the war. But this is not about our feelings on the tactic, but rather that an action during a previous war is used to justify a new one. That violates the most basic premises of international diplomacy - what's the point of surrendering if people can just attack you again for what you did prior to your surrender?

which would have been (in their planning) enacted outside of war-time - if you take into account that the TPF/ZH members were released and given peace, then the months required to build ZH, have it fail, merge into Athens, then destroy them from the inside. And at no time was that plan called off by Mhawk, it stopped merely because of a falling out between himself and ZH

This was created months before the end of the war, nobody knew what would end up happening. Claiming that it wasn't called off is disingenuous - if your employee tells you he has quit, do you need to fire him? It stopped before a need for it to be called off occured.

[ThatFALGuy]

<<snip>>

And at no time was that plan called off by Mhawk, it stopped merely because of a falling out between himself and ZH.

Just a little something on this point. It was cancelled, how it was cancelled is of little importance to me and mine, that it was not pursued after the cancellation IS however most important to me. Mhawk didn't have to call it off, his doing so would have been redundant, kinda like...

The fact it failed only goes to show how little was actually put into it. ZH took their ball and went home. TPF moved on in the world.

[silentkiller]

finding things amusing=/=supporting. seriously enough with that dribble. i never saw Athens at war with NPO for FAN or Vox, so you would have a point if Athens went to war to defend FAN or Vox, but they never did. thus, your point is invalid.

i also find it amusing that NPO kept FAN and Vox at war for so long partially due to the spying bit and are now saying it is acceptable behavior? hypocrites much? i truly find it amusing that NPO are so hypocritical when it comes to anything certain alliances do. hey despite no treaties at least NPO has been more loyal of an ally than TPF was to NPO. that does honestly deserve a o/ NPO.

NPO kept FAN in war because 1) FAN was constantly spying on us, and didnt stop(so yeah was still a threat rather than a 6 month old failed spy attempt. and 2) because Fan refused to surrender to anything other than white peace. Remind you anything about the TPF-PC issue? without TOOL promising the Tech TPF would not have seen peace.

and on the supporting spying issue I don't want to go through 1900 posts so I'll forfeit that argument.

Edited December 29, 2009 by silentkiller

[WorkingClassRuler]

Unfortunately I'm off to bed folks (Foamtopia is in the Southern Hemisphere), but I just wanted to acknowledge the valid arguments made in these last few posts, you've given me something to think about.

[Dochartaigh]

Then there is that whole, the spying never happened bit. I know that is minor to someone with a single mindset, but it IS there.

I dunno, I feel there is a difference in the talk, planning and even hopes of implementing a spy operation and actually carrying it out. I'm not sure anymore, but it seems different to me.

they planted spies. just because no info was handed over does not mean the spies were not planted by TPF. i know that ya'll want to prove TPF is somehow innocent, but that just ain't the case. i know most alliances had they found a planted spy in their midst would destroy the alliance who planted the spy. oh that is right, it is TPF and it happened in some desperate situation that TPF put themselves in where TPF finally gained peace but never came forward with this completely justifiable action.

i know that a person with a single mindset would have a hard time understanding that if the action was justifiable why would TPF have any fear about coming forward?