The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Thomas Jackson]

As a new player and someone who doesn't like TPF and mhawk from the history i've read, the aggressors against TPF do not have a leg to stand on.

The piling casualties of TPF beg to differ.

[The Big Bad]

Actually reasonable people can debate whether during a war launching plans to internally destroy a community is acceptable. Only TPF or their allies say it's "100% ridiculous". Others think it's acceptable, or a good CB, and some think it's a great CB. But very few discount the entire thing except for TPF and its allies.

Well that and every other alliance that all someone has to do is log dump war time plans to attack. Hell logs from Athens plotting this war can now be used to attack them later. Its ironic but this new standard will make the entire idea of lack of CBs obsolete as one can always just say, well look at this log they said they wanted to nuke us in the last war. That is a solid CB now. Athens has never been one for thinking things out but you would think its allies would would have learned a thing or two about Karma.

[Letum]

Supporters of this war seem to be rather fond of ignoring the fact that TPF has shown no aggression since it surrendered, and keep on throwing red herrings to distract people. But they don't hold up to basic scrutiny:

First off, on the point that TPF was fighting on a different front:

This is a technicality that does not give you a valid CB. It is a single conflict, with two clear sides. Is money aid between alliances fighting on different fronts also going to be treated as a CB? Because - when not done in a war -aid is just as much an act of war as spying is. Are people who didn't fight Athens directly but aided someone who did liable to be attacked? Coalitions also discuss war plans together - using this logic, a "CB" for "plotting" can be made against an alliance if it participated in war plans regarding an enemy it didn't fight. This is all, obviously, ridiculous. Everyone is fighting in the same damn war. Fronts are made for the sake of military and political convenience.

On the point that Athens was not "informed":

An "act" of war implies just that: Action. You cannot construe inaction as something to declare war over, unless there's some kind of responsibility to act. There is no obligation or reason for TPF to reveal everything they did during a war. TPF's inaction did not cause any damage to Athens - it did not "protect" anyone by not acting, it did not "permit" harm to occur by hiding it - all evidence points that covert operations had stopped before the end of the war, so by the time their signature was on a surrender paper TPF was, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing.

On the point that it was a "Covert" action (as opposed to normal attacks):

Both Covert and Overt are parts of aggression - which is what takes place in war. Yes, there are people that frown at certain aspects of covert military action - but in the past you have found people hostile to the idea of certain overt acts in war (Nukes), wars that take too long, etc. Trying to wrap it in the paper of "moral outrage" by making exaggerated emotional claims like "destroying our community" is ridiculous - war is war. It does not distinguish from one form of conflict to another. (Honestly, If you're worried about your community, then you should be on the lookout for the thousands-strong opposing army rather than the spies you can count with your hands.) If you want to retaliate with punishment, it should be done during a war or in the surrender agreement - once the war is over, it is over, not matter what you knew at that point.

On the point that it was a "Long-term" plan:

Why should the initial plan matter? Both it and the action were scrapped by the time the war ended. You would not re-declare a war if you find out the other side was "planning to win". The war ended, and there were no malicious actions undertaken after it. Plans are only important when they might materialise - but with the operation stopped and TPF surrendered, there was no shred of evidence for such a materialisation

On the "we don't believe they stopped there":

The ideology of "guilty until proven innocent" is the realm of jingoists that want excuses for war, not that of civilized people. All admissions from the parties involved show that any covert actions were stopped by the time the war was over. No evidence exists of any other operation. In essence, this argument would boil down to "we will kill you because you're ashady character". Attacking due to your views on a character is not "responding to belligerence", but rather just hitting someone because you don't like them.

Really, the sheer notion that an alliance that has done absolutely nothing since the last war is somehow being "belligerent" is insane. We might as well start using "I lost the last war but I feel stronger now" or "I won the last war but did't beat you down enough" as an excuse for all future conflicts while we are at it.

[ryguytheman]

Regardless of when, or under what circumstances, espionage isn't acceptable. If I understand correctly, TPF was planning an OOC war against numerous alliances (my own included). Can anyone honestly say that it is alright to spy on another alliance? Does anyone believe that it's fair? It doesn't matter if it is a time of war or not, it is not acceptable. From what I understand, TPF was not at war with the offended party anyways, which makes it even more offensive. No, the infiltration did not work (as far as we know), but the intent was there, and TPF acted upon that intent. Trying to downplay the fact that there was fowl play in the works is just sad. Spying is not okay, it's as simple as that.

[terveis]

nvm

Edited December 29, 2009 by terveis

[Captain Flinders]

Well that and every other alliance that all someone has to do is log dump war time plans to attack. Hell logs from Athens plotting this war can now be used to attack them later.

I don't think Athens is currently planning on infiltrating alliances they aren't even at war with (or any at all for that matter) so no, they couldn't.

[TIEIXIAIS]

I don't think Athens is currently planning on infiltrating alliances they aren't even at war with (or any at all for that matter) so no, they couldn't.

I believe the what he was pointing out was the fact that those logs were during the karma war and the plans were abandoned before it ended. It was more of a mockery than anything else.

[Captain Flinders]

I believe the what he was pointing out was the fact that those logs were during the karma war and the plans were abandoned before it ended. It was more of a mockery than anything else.

So I can send spies to IRON and as long as they don't do their job it's all good? Being at war doesn't mean you are absolved of your actions. TPF is one such alliance who has made that very clear in the past. I knew the point he was making, however it's just too ridiculous to let stand.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[TIEIXIAIS]

So I can send spies to IRON and as long as they don't do their job it's all good? Being at war doesn't mean you are absolved of your actions. TPF is one such alliance who has made that very clear in the past. I knew the point he was making, however it's just too ridiculous to let stand.

If the spies were in operation during a state of hostility and surrender terms were met. At that point if the alliance ceased spying operations I assure you IRON would disregard it.

[ryguytheman]

But there were no hostilities. The two alliances were not even at war. There were no surrender terms between the two because THEY WEREN'T AT WAR.

[TIEIXIAIS]

But there were no hostilities. The two alliances were not even at war. There were no surrender terms between the two because THEY WEREN'T AT WAR.

The surrender terms were on behalf of all nations fighting on the karma movement side. Including RoK Athens and TPF. TPF followed the terms and ceased all operations against karma alliances (Rok and Athens included).

[Letum]

If I understand correctly, TPF was planning an OOC war against numerous alliances (my own included)

Planning OOC war? TPF did not send Athens letter bombs.

Can anyone honestly say that it is alright to spy on another alliance?

The people running the CoaLUEtion/League in GW1-2 found it perfectly acceptable to spy during a war. For a time, "spying is only bad when not in a war" was even written down as official policy for some alliances. Vox and FAN did not think much of it when they were fighting, and there are many alliances who view it as simply another form of attacking when fighting a war. You can easilly claim that it is "Underhanded", but that is a moral characteristic, not a physical one.

It's quite refreshing to see your ironclad belief in your righteousness, but "just cause" does not stem from "I don't like what you did". You can call it as "unacceptable" as you want, but both covert and overt are subdivisions of the same thing - war. Any response is part of that war, but when a war ends, it ends. That means no more attacks of any nature. Staring a new war because of what happened in the old one is unwarranted aggression.

You can draw your exaggerated moral absolutes about it never being acceptable all you want, but in the end it boils down to "I don't like what you did" - and your dislike does not in itself make a casus belli. None of your absolutes change the fact that TPF is an alliance that has taken no hostile action since it surrendered, and against that backdrop, the claim of the dow that Athens "acknowledge the belligerence of The Phoenix Federation and defend" against it is quite clearly false. No amount of personal feelings on TPF's actions during a previous war will change the fact that it is showing no belligerence or cause for defence in a new one.

Once a war ends, it ends. There used to be opposition to the use of nuclear first strike in wars - retaliation for that was included in surrender terms, as a part of the original war. New wars were not started over it.

But there were no hostilities. The two alliances were not even at war. There were no surrender terms between the two because THEY WEREN'T AT WAR.

Do make an effort to read the post right before yours:

First off, on the point that TPF was fighting on a different front:

This is a technicality that does not give you a valid CB. It is a single conflict, with two clear sides. Is money aid between alliances fighting on different fronts also going to be treated as a CB? Because - when not done in a war -aid is just as much an act of war as spying is. Are people who didn't fight Athens directly but aided someone who did liable to be attacked? Coalitions also discuss war plans together - using this logic, a "CB" for "plotting" can be made against an alliance if it participated in war plans regarding an enemy it didn't fight. This is all, obviously, ridiculous. Everyone is fighting in the same damn war. Fronts are made for the sake of military and political convenience.

Welcome to the boards.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Letum

[ryguytheman]

Trust me, I've been here before.

I'm just not the type to spend half an hour trying to technically dissect one post at a time. But good job. You succeeded in making yourself feel good about your wall of text while proving to me that you can use the quote button. Gotta love you guys!

[TIEIXIAIS]

Trust me, I've been here before.

I'm just not the type to spend half an hour trying to technically dissect one post at a time. But good job. You succeeded in making yourself feel good about your wall of text while proving to me that you can use the quote button. Gotta love you guys!

Then it is safe to assume you will continue to avoid the point and dance around an argument of yours that is non-existent?

[ryguytheman]

Sure.

[Captain Flinders]

If the spies were in operation during a state of hostility and surrender terms were met. At that point if the alliance ceased spying operations I assure you IRON would disregard it.

Well first off, TPF wasn't at war with Athens when they sent spies their way. Secondly, if that is the way IRON would respond then that is just sad. Most self respecting alliances wouldn't act in such a passive manner when their very core structure and stability is threatened like that.

[Haflinger]

If it takes you more than one day to mobilize your alliance for war, its time to fire your MoD.

Most people don't carry a full navy in peacetime.

[TIEIXIAIS]

Well first off, TPF wasn't at war with Athens when they sent spies their way. Secondly, if that is the way IRON would respond then that is just sad. Most self respecting alliances wouldn't act in such a passive manner when their very core structure and stability is threatened like that.

As I said above. Stop dancing around a point that was already made clear. There were two sides, karma and Hegemony they were at war and alliances with in hegemony engaged in operations against karma including Athens and RoK. After Hegemony surrendered operations stopped.

[Chalaskan]

Sure.

'

You proved his point. Furthermore, C&G/FB are trying to plan an OOC war.

Keep playing the game, it is opportunistic to push for this war, and you know damn good and well that is true. If not you are naive. C&G and FB are trying to manipulate this game as a hegemony...Oo

[WorkingClassRuler]

As I said above. Stop dancing around a point that was already made clear. There were two sides, karma and Hegemony they were at war and alliances with in hegemony engaged in operations against karma including Athens and RoK. After Hegemony surrendered operations stopped.

The point you seem to be missing is that declaring peace certainly does not absolve them of all crimes committed during the war that TPF conveniently kept to themselves. You honestly think if Athens and Karma knew what TPF were up to, they would have still given them peace? I think not. While IRON may not care about a purposely-built alliance designed to infiltrate you and destroy you from the inside, plenty of other people do. They did not know what TPF was up to until now, that's why they've been declared on now.

[TIEIXIAIS]

The point you seem to be missing is that declaring peace certainly does not absolve them of all crimes committed during the war that TPF conveniently kept to themselves. You honestly think if Athens and Karma knew what TPF were up to, they would have still given them peace? I think not. While IRON may not care about a purposely-built alliance designed to infiltrate you and destroy you from the inside, plenty of other people do. They did not know what TPF was up to until now, that's why they've been declared on now.

If this is not a personal vendetta then please explain to me as to why there is no back lash against ZH?

[WorkingClassRuler]

If this is not a personal vendetta then please explain to me as to why there is no back lash against ZH?

I never said it wasn't personal. Creating an alliance specifically to destroy someone from the inside certainly elevates things to a personal level. I am not Athens, I do not know what they plan to do about ZH, or if they plan to do anything at all. I also do not know how that is related to your initial point.

[TIEIXIAIS]

I never said it wasn't personal. Creating an alliance specifically to destroy someone from the inside certainly elevates things to a personal level. I am not Athens, I do not know what they plan to do about ZH, or if they plan to do anything at all. I also do not know how that is related to your initial point.

ZH is the alliance that originally was created to distablize them. They are the 'spies' and yet TPF is the target.

[Nizzle]

Well first off, TPF wasn't at war with Athens when they sent spies their way. Secondly, if that is the way IRON would respond then that is just sad. Most self respecting alliances wouldn't act in such a passive manner when their very core structure and stability is threatened like that.

Lets not be silly, this war wont prevent the threat. At least be honest.

[Captain Flinders]

As I said above. Stop dancing around a point that was already made clear. There were two sides, karma and Hegemony they were at war and alliances with in hegemony engaged in operations against karma including Athens and RoK. After Hegemony surrendered operations stopped.

TPF was not fighting the entirety of Karma so for them to act as if they were is their own folly. That's like saying Zenith or FEAR could proceed spying on RoK or Athens now that they are technically involved in a war through their treaties with TPF. To say that TPF had the right to spy on the entire Karma coalition is ridiculous.