The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[WorkingClassRuler]

ZH is the alliance that originally was created to distablize them. They are the 'spies' and yet TPF is the target.

And where did ZH come from and who planned this idea to create an alliance to destabilize them?

I was under the impression your point was regarding giving TPF peace after the Karma war.

[TIEIXIAIS]

TPF was not fighting the entirety of Karma so for them to act as if they were is their own folly. That's like saying Zenith or FEAR could proceed spying on RoK or Athens now that they are technically involved in a war through their treaties with TPF. To say that TPF had the right to spy on the entire Karma coalition is ridiculous.

FEAR has not engaged on the ex-hegemony side therefore they could not legitimately commence spy operations against RoK or Athens. HOWEVER TPF was engaged on the hegemony side and Athens and RoK on the karma side, making there operations legitimate.

EDIT

And where did ZH come from and who planned this idea to create an alliance to destabilize them?

I was under the impression your point was regarding giving TPF peace after the Karma war.

ZH is argued to be a threat against RoK and Athens and yet RoK and Athens disregard it.

Edited December 29, 2009 by TIEIXIAIS

[WorkingClassRuler]

FEAR has not engaged on the ex-hegemony side therefore they could not legitimately commence spy operations against RoK or Athens. HOWEVER TPF was engaged on the hegemony side and Athens and RoK on the karma side, making there operations legitimate.

I know you weren't addressing me but last time I was in a war (got rogued on recently), I only saw options to launch Cruise Missles, Nukes, Ground Attacks, Spy attacks against the Nation, Navy, and Aircraft. Nowhere in those options, nor in the capability of my nation or alliance, was the choice to "Create a spy alliance to infiltrate your enemy and destroy them from the inside".

Do you or TPF have some marvelous Wonder that I do not possess? And if so, was it in use when IRON was fighting MHA?

Edited December 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[Ad Fidem]

Seriously all you guys are going back and forth talking about taking tpf down a notch is morally and physically wrong, and how someone should do something about it.

if i were tpf i'd get new allies anf join \m/

[Chalaskan]

TPF was not fighting the entirety of Karma so for them to act as if they were is their own folly. That's like saying Zenith or FEAR could proceed spying on RoK or Athens now that they are technically involved in a war through their treaties with TPF. To say that TPF had the right to spy on the entire Karma coalition is ridiculous.

Then why the hell did ROK, \M/ and others declare war when the act of war was against Athens? It's called allies. Imagine if you were in a position of possible eternal war...you'd do the same damn thing. So get over it. Your very declarations prove the opposing point.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Chalaskan

[TIEIXIAIS]

I know you weren't addressing me but last time I was in a war (got rogued on recently), I only saw options to launch Cruise Missles, Nukes, Ground Attacks, Spy attacks against the Nation, Navy, and Aircraft. Nowhere in those options, nor in the capability of my nation or alliance, was the choice to "Create a spy alliance to infiltrate your enemy and destroy them from the inside".

Do you or TPF have some marvelous Wonder that I do not possess? And if so, was it in use when IRON was fighting MHA?

Read Letum's above post, or continue to ignore the facts presented to you.

[WorkingClassRuler]

Read Letum's above post, or continue to ignore the facts presented to you.

You must show me how to dance like that, my friend, I don't quite have the footwork down pat.

[ryguytheman]

Read Letum's above post, or continue to ignore the facts presented to you.

I would say that including espionage within the perameters of the game would be more of an opinion. Not a fact.

Edited December 29, 2009 by ryguytheman

[Captain Flinders]

FEAR has not engaged on the ex-hegemony side therefore they could not legitimately commence spy operations against RoK or Athens. HOWEVER TPF was engaged on the hegemony side and Athens and RoK on the karma side, making there operations legitimate.

Where the hell did this "legitimate spying" thing come from. You are aware that not everyone finds that legitimate right? And it's not legitimate just because you say it is.

Imagine if you were in a position of possible eternal war...you'd do the same damn thing. So get over it. Your very declarations prove the opposing point.

Wait really? I was there smart guy. Twice. And I didn't spy on anyone. Even if I had I would have taken the consequences like a man instead of trying to talk my way out of it.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[PrideAssassin]

TPF was not fighting the entirety of Karma

Yes, they were, since the entirety of Karma provided the muscle to shove them into the dirt.

Since when does an act against a Coalition become a (valid, not desperate, we spent our reps monies, may we please have more?) CB six months after the act is halted, then peace is declared?

Try harder.

[Captain Flinders]

Yes, they were, since the entirety of Karma provided the muscle to shove them into the dirt.

Since when does an act against a Coalition become a (valid, not desperate, we spent our reps monies, may we please have more?) CB six months after the act is halted, then peace is declared?

Try harder.

No, the alliances that declared on TPF provided the muscle. If more were to be needed, more declarations would have been made. When you fight in that kind of war you are not fighting the entire opposing side but one small portion of it. Otherwise, there would be no need for additional DoW's as the fight goes on but we have them all the time.

[PrideAssassin]

Takes a cell to make a body.

If they could destabilize cells within Karma's body in wartime, more power to 'em.

Weak CB is weak.

[doctorrodders]

Takes a cell to make a body.

If they could destabilize cells within Karma's body in wartime, more power to 'em.

Weak CB is weak.

I agree with this. It was the whole entity of Karma that won. If TPF had the direct support of more alliances, ie they were not fighting different alliances, then they would likly have won. You cannot say that each side is only fighting a small part of the other, as it is the combined effect of lack of aid and military power overall which determines war.

[WorkingClassRuler]

I agree with this. It was the whole entity of Karma that won. If TPF had the direct support of more alliances, ie they were not fighting different alliances, then they would likly have won. You cannot say that each side is only fighting a small part of the other, as it is the combined effect of lack of aid and military power overall which determines war.

Which is awesome and all, but doesn't change the fact that they created a spy alliance to infiltrate Athens and destroy them from the inside.

Weak argument is weak... that's how that works, right?

[Trinite]

Imagine if you were in a position of possible eternal war...you'd do the same damn thing. So get over it. Your very declarations prove the opposing point.

Eternal war? Hell, I'll do it every war because clearly so long as I can get peace before my plot is discovered, I am completely absolved for the act, right? Actions have consequences. Even in wartime, somethings shouldn't be done, and they should be deterred.

[Letum]

The point you seem to be missing is that declaring peace certainly does not absolve them of all crimes committed during the war that TPF conveniently kept to themselves. You honestly think if Athens and Karma knew what TPF were up to, they would have still given them peace? I think not. While IRON may not care about a purposely-built alliance designed to infiltrate you and destroy you from the inside, plenty of other people do. They did not know what TPF was up to until now, that's why they've been declared on now.

"crimes committed"?

Talk about spin. It's a war, people fight it on different levels. Once the surrender terms are done, the war is over - you cannot add new punishment because you learnt something new - to do so would threaten the sanctity of every surrender agreement in history. Though your statement about no peace being given seems somewhat different to the fervent arguments that TPF should have "confessed" during surrender agreements.

I would say that including espionage within the perameters of the game would be more of an opinion. Not a fact.

There are two levels of activity in our realm: the one directly between nations (wars, aid, cn pms) and the one rulers use to organize and communicate. It is in the latter that politics, dow, treaties, jobs and yes, espionage take place. To claim that it is not a part of this realm is not "opinion", it is ignoring basic logic. It uses the same medium as our MDP's, elections and everything interesting. You can claim that it is immoral, but morality has no impact on its existence.

Also, brushing off a reply by making a disparaging remark about the other ruler's over-abundance of time is very impolite. Please be more civil.

[Captain Flinders]

Takes a cell to make a body.

If they could destabilize cells within Karma's body in wartime, more power to 'em.

Weak CB is weak.

I do love this style of debate. Just say the same thing over and over again with a different metaphor regardless of the logical inaccuracies. Heaven forbid you actually argue the content of opposing posts.

And by the way, when is IRON going to make good on their MDP?

[CaptainImpavid]

Takes a cell to make a body.

If they could destabilize cells within Karma's body in wartime, more power to 'em.

Weak CB is weak.

Um, no, because their actions, if successful, wouldn't result merely in the defeat of an enemy, but the pillaging of their home, a potentially fatal poisoning of their community.

If this kind of behavior was OK in wartime, it would quickly grow to become acceptable in peacetime as well. You can't let SOME of the genie out of the lamp. So ask yourself, just because you like TPF, or hate the people attacking them, are you willing to accept a fundamental shift in thinking when it comes to espionage?

/useless question I know, since hypocrisy being the global sport on Bob, you can say a vehement YES now and then still whine and moan when someone infiltrates your alliance later with malicious intent.

[ThatFALGuy]

I know you weren't addressing me but last time I was in a war (got rogued on recently), I only saw options to launch Cruise Missles, Nukes, Ground Attacks, Spy attacks against the Nation, Navy, and Aircraft. Nowhere in those options, nor in the capability of my nation or alliance, was the choice to "Create a spy alliance to infiltrate your enemy and destroy them from the inside".

Do you or TPF have some marvelous Wonder that I do not possess? And if so, was it in use when IRON was fighting MHA?

Nor is there any choice for diplomacy.

Or ZI.

Or PZI.

Or "Tech Raiding".

Or even joining an alliance.

So your point is? Is it that if it is not offered to you in game, you haven't the ability to use logical thought in making a decision on behalf of yourself?

As far as your continued ignorance with stating that ZH was only designed as an infiltration alliance, well, that's just ignorant partner.

[Bob Janova]

If this kind of behavior was OK in wartime, it would quickly grow to become acceptable in peacetime as well

There's a reason that the slippery slope argument is an oft-quoted logical fallacy. Is an update blitz acceptable in peacetime? The logic is simple: acts of war in peacetime are not acceptable and throw you into a war; acts of war in wartime are part of fighting a war.

If the hostile actions had continued once TPF was out of the war, then there would be no argument. It's not about when the plot was discovered, but when it was active.

[Letum]

If this kind of behavior was OK in wartime, it would quickly grow to become acceptable in peacetime as well. You can't let SOME of the genie out of the lamp. .

Talk about exaggeration.

Nobody is saying that spying is a "good thing". You will also be hard pressed to find anyone saying "dropping bombs on people is good" or "we should destroy everybody's tech". It is an aggressive act like the other two - there are some parties that claim it is dishonourable - but you will find similar claims about other things. Just last year, nuclear war was "morally wrong" due to the large level of damage and global impact.

But the fact is that this is not a debate on the merits of spying - this is about an alliance that has been peaceful since their surrender being attacked for their acts in war prior to that surrender.

[WorkingClassRuler]

Nor is there any choice for diplomacy.

Or ZI.

Or PZI.

Or "Tech Raiding".

Or even joining an alliance.

So your point is? Is it that if it is not offered to you in game, you haven't the ability to use logical thought in making a decision on behalf of yourself?

As far as your continued ignorance with stating that ZH was only designed as an infiltration alliance, well, that's just ignorant partner.

Well, yes all of those are capable.

You are asked to discuss it with the nation before declaring, and Peace Options are present.

You can, if capable, reduce a nation to zero infrastructure by continuing to attack them.

You can PZI a nation by continuing to attack them.

You can tech raid a nation by attacking them in a certain way.

You join an alliance by placing the Affiliation on your nation.

My point was not that the ability doesn't exist just because it's not mentioned, but that it is not normal war time operations. As many others have said here, spying and infiltration of alliances is not acceptable to many alliances. Some think it is, others do not. I brought up this point to ask if the IRON member in question had conduct such operations while fighting MHA.

And I suppose when you can't succeed, just use random insults. Say it enough and maybe it will come true.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[CaptainImpavid]

There's a reason that the slippery slope argument is an oft-quoted logical fallacy. Is an update blitz acceptable in peacetime? The logic is simple: acts of war in peacetime are not acceptable and throw you into a war; acts of war in wartime are part of fighting a war.

If the hostile actions had continued once TPF was out of the war, then there would be no argument. It's not about when the plot was discovered, but when it was active.

My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war. Changing the rules to retroactively allow that kind of behavior in wartime DOES open the door for a potential paradigm shift regarding espionage in general. At least in terms of "I know I'm probably going to end up at war with them anyway, so I've got nothing to lose by doing this."

When the act was discovered is just as important as when the act took place. Even if TPF did terminate this plan before hostilities ended, and I'm not going to catch up right now on the 40 pages since I last checked to see if they did, it means little. There is no blanket "you are absolved of everything you may or may not have done to anyone who may or may not have been at war with you" clause in peace terms.

Committing an act of war against someone is a punishable act, even if there happens to be another larger war on at the time. This would all have taken place sooner, I am sure, had the information become more readily available earlier, but you go to war because of the intel you have, not the intel you might have had.

[ThatFALGuy]

Well, yes all of those are capable.

You are asked to discuss it with the nation before declaring, and Peace Options are present.

You can, if capable, reduce a nation to zero infrastructure by continuing to attack them.

You can PZI a nation by continuing to attack them.

You can tech raid a nation by attacking them in a certain way.

You join an alliance [ooc]on your nation page[/ooc] by placing the Affiliation on your nation.

My point was not that the ability doesn't exist just because it's not mentioned [ooc:]in the game[/ooc], but that it is not normal war time operations. As many others have said here, spying and infiltration of alliances is not acceptable to many alliances. Some think it is, others do not. I brought up this point to ask if the IRON member in question had conduct such operations while fighting MHA.

And I suppose when you can't succeed, just use random insults. Say it enough and maybe it will come true.

It's one or the other, either the options specifically exist or they don't. You have contradicted yourself here. You first argued or stated that spying is not part of the game mechanics because there was not a specific option for it. Now some things are ok without the specific option, just by utilizing a backdoor? There still is no option to PZI, even though you can achieve that by keeping a person in war. There is also no option to infiltrate, though you can achieve that just by... doing it?

I personally am of the mind that spying, while !@#$%*, is a viable wartime tactic. It doesn't have to be nice, it's war. You don't have to like it, it's war.

I am insulted that you accuse me of random insults. There was nothing random about my insult, it was pretty specific and apparently dead on.

[ThatFALGuy]

My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war. Changing the rules to retroactively allow that kind of behavior in wartime DOES open the door for a potential paradigm shift regarding espionage in general. At least in terms of "I know I'm probably going to end up at war with them anyway, so I've got nothing to lose by doing this."

When the act was discovered is just as important as when the act took place. Even if TPF did terminate this plan before hostilities ended, and I'm not going to catch up right now on the 40 pages since I last checked to see if they did, it means little. There is no blanket "you are absolved of everything you may or may not have done to anyone who may or may not have been at war with you" clause in peace terms.

Committing an act of war against someone is a punishable act, even if there happens to be another larger war on at the time. This would all have taken place sooner, I am sure, had the information become more readily available earlier, but you go to war because of the intel you have, not the intel you might have had.

You make some valid points, even if I disagree with most of them.

What is your opinion about "thought crimes"?