Countdown to Athens Rep Payment

[Heft]

Go talk to them if you doubt us.

I don't take issue with your conclusion, just your logic.

We made several apologies under external pressure, yes. We had reasons for doing that, to be sure. But the decision to pay them reparations was ours, and was made by myself and angryraccoon before anyone outside the alliance said a word to us. As was the decision to work with Ni! with respect, to arrive at a meaningful sum and means of repayment that gave them satisfaction for the whole affair, rather than just flinging some money at their aid slots to satiate the peanut gallery and touch up our "image". I care more about seeing the right thing done than making people think we are all pretty and great. I can't expect you to bother trying to get the facts straight though. Ya'll seem to have as much of an animus against us as NPO does. Bitter, much?

And what exactly do you think the response would have been if you hadn't paid reparations? That was pretty much expected with any apology. I guess you could have done one and not the other but that would just be stupid and not well thought out. So yea maybe you would have done that.

What exactly do you suppose I might be bitter about? Other than just general annoyance I can't think of anything. None of what you really said were "facts" anyway, just some more "I'm too cool to care what others think and I'm totally doing all of this of my own personal volition and screw off" bluster and hot air. Getting hot air straight is challenging, so some sympathy would be appreciated.

[Merrie Melodies]

Just two days?

Well here is a thought, I was not in NPO prior to their surrender in the Karma war, I have always decried tech raiding, especially on a grand scale, I have thrown my nation into tech raiders at personal expense since the very inception of my nation so I can honestly say my opinions on this are not NPO inspired or propaganda.

Athens performed a despicable act, when initially called on it the responded with the classic "do something about it" maneuver and when they realized some heavy heat could come down they backed off and said "we'll do the right thing" at which point all seemed right. This thread was nothing more than amusing until Londo pulled a PC making many wonder if they were doing the right thing cause it was the right thing or because they got reamed by treaty partners.

Personally I now feel they could give a hoot about doing the right thing because its right, rather more a self preservation thing.

/me looks forward to the atrocities to come.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[Delta1212]

Ok, let's spell this out. We have two NPO nations, N1 and N2. We have 4 Athens nations, A1, A2, A3, and A4. We have two KofN nations, K1 and K2.

A->C method:

N1 sends 3 mil to K1

N2 sends 3 mil to K2

meanwhile Athens uses their free slots for tech deals:

A1 sends 3 mil to A3

A2 sends 3 mil to A4

A3 sends 50 tech to A2

A4 sends 50 tech to A1

End result:

N1 loses 3 mil, uses 1 slot

N2 loses 3 mil, uses 1 slot

A1 loses 3 mil, gains 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A2 loses 3 mil, gains 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A3 gains 3 mil, loses 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A4 gains 3 mil, loses 50 tech, uses 2 slots

K1 gains 3 mil, uses 1 slot

K2 gains 3 mil, uses 1 slot

A->B->C method:

N1 sends 3 mil to A3

N2 sends 3 mil to A4

A3 sends 50 tech to A2

A4 sends 50 tech to A1

A1 sends 3 mil to K1

A2 sends 3 mil to K2

End result:

N1 loses 3 mil, uses 1 slot

N2 loses 3 mil, uses 1 slot

A1 loses 3 mil, gains 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A2 loses 3 mil, gains 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A3 gains 3 mil, loses 50 tech, uses 2 slots

A4 gains 3 mil, loses 50 tech, uses 2 slots

K1 gains 3 mil, uses 1 slot

K2 gains 3 mil, uses 1 slot

Please describe the practical difference in the end result of these two methods.

[Jasmines Jewels]

So I've not posted in this thread mostly because I didn't feel I had to. I cannot speak for anyone in CN other than myself.

The facts have been this. There is a discussion between Athens/FoB/KoN and there is one between Athens/NPO. Nothing more or less at this moment. Nothing is completely decided on our part and anything said otherwise is speculation and misinformation.

These threads the last couple days and posts in them on a lot of peoples parts have basically been undermining all the work that the Economic departments in each respective alliance have come to achieve. By all means spin whatever stories you like but I'll keep to the truth.

As far as the question on if we are allowed per terms to pay anyone outside of the original mentioned, it is stated that "Accepting external aid offers of any kind, or sending external aid offers to any nation other than an approved reparations target, is forbidden for the duration of terms."

[Kevin McDonald]

I just read this entire thread, though I skimmed the last couple pages.

I have a question. If, as Bilrow claims, this thread is not propaganda but was meant to bring a serious injustice to light, then why does Bilrow or anyone arguing in favour of his argument continue to ignore the biggest issue:

No reps amount has been settled.

If Bilrow or people arguing his side would like to provide some proof the KoN has been trying to get an amount settled and Athens has been refusing to negotiate, we can talk, otherwise, it sounds like this IS nothing more than horrible, horrible propaganda.

Now, let me telegraph Bilrow's response to this post:

19 DAYS AND NO REPS FROM ATHENS!!!!!111one

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kevin McDonald

[Azaghul]

As far as the question on if we are allowed per terms to pay anyone outside of the original mentioned, it is stated that "Accepting external aid offers of any kind, or sending external aid offers to any nation other than an approved reparations target, is forbidden for the duration of terms.

I don't see the issue here, it says that "or sending external aid offers to any nation other than an approved reparations target". If Athens is giving you the target, and counting it towards your reps total, than that is an "approved" target, is it not? The precedent has already been set that that is OK, as several alliances have forwarded some of their reps, OV to GUN, Athens and RoK to MK.

[Some-Guy]

18 Days And Still No Reps From Athens

Rumor has it the Knights of Ni! have sent Londo on a trip to find some shrubbery before they will come to an agreement on reps.

2 Days since Bilrow broke my heart and still no resolution.

[Khyber]

I didn't claim this, I was only referring to the content of this particular thread.

edit: a little more clarity never hurts

I agree, Bilrow has had a history of aggression against weaker opponents, him showing outrage at these actions seem laughable. I also think it should come form the KoN allies or them, or someone that took the time to look into the matter by speaking with the KoN rather then this post.

[wickedj]

Vlad is a better !@#$%^&*ter, let him do stuff like this

[King Chill I]

Just two days?

Well im mainly focusing on the total unmitigated crap that the purpose and execution of this thread was. So yea, given my starting point, 2 days.

The worst part (funny in a way) is that some of the people fell for the half assed "omg look ebil Athens" play attempted by Bilrow and are now seriously arguing over this instead of laughing at how lame his tactic is.

Edited December 2, 2009 by King Chill I

[flak attack]

Hey Bilrow, remember that time you raided a 700 man alliance and then made them pay reps?

[Balkan Banania]

The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business,....

If the initial matter was left between KoFN, Athens and FoB then an alliance wide tech raid would be completed by today.

Personally I don't think there is a problem with making this public, especially since the same approach resulted to the stop of an unprovoked aggression. This is a way for the OWF crowd to be informed and have an effect on CN politics. Specifically if an alliance with significant political capital decides to not pay any reps, it can clearly go unnoticed, especially when the victim is relatively isolated (I don’t think it will be the case but I am mentioning it as an example of when an informed CN society may exercise pressure), thus I prefer a fuss, maybe uncalled-for, than a veil of silence.

I can understand the questioning of the OP motives, but I don't see why they matter, as a valid question was asked using facts and an answer was given along with a confirmation that the solution is underway.

Maybe this thread can create a trend for a more sincere CN politics arena and for a more informed CN society. After all a new era erupted after the last war and transparency should be encouraged .

Now the OWF crowd can sit and wait for Athens and KoFN final agreement according to Athens statement.

[pezstar]

Hey Bilrow, remember that time you raided a 700 man alliance and then made them pay reps?

But...but... that was so long ago! How can you hold something that happened so long ago against someone now? /sarcasm

[Mechanus]

exactly, dont we keep hearing that NPO is stalling on their rep payments? As the song goes "Little less talk and alot more action"

tl;dr version:

meet

This tl;dr gets my stamp of approval if I had one.

2thumpsup

Would read again

[Archon]

Bilrow invited attacks upon his character by merit of his aggressive style of presentation and the nature of his intervening into a situation with which he was not originally involved. It is unfortunate that attacks also bled over onto the New Pacific Order as a whole, for I can sympathize with the plight of many of their members who are not of the character of Bilrow, and as such do not deserve to be lumped in with him. Many have held against them the actions of those who are no longer members of the alliance, and as a former member of LUE I remember the frustration I felt at similar actions. Hell, as a leader of MK, I remember my anger at having things held against me for that two-step association.

The issue has been addressed, and KoN are getting their reparations. Should anyone be dissatisfied with the nature of the delivery of this aid, or the timetables coming into place, I would expect to see them taking action born from their concern and flooding the KoN nations with financial assistance. A cursory viewing of aid offerings show this is not the case, so I am left to draw the conclusion that the complaints are motivated not out of concern or genuine consternation but rather out of political motivation. This is distasteful, but it does make it acceptable to ignore their now hollow argumentation in the face of the reality that Athens has announced their progress on the reparation payment, in addition to the more general assertion that they do have the intent to pay said reparations.

I would recommend that, in light of the fact that the politically motivated attacks against Athens have been met with such derision that those who seek to defeat them not fall back on similar tactics by assailing the NPO, but rather focus their commentary on the individuals who come forward and support this line. This has, for the most part, been the case, but it has not been the universal policy.

All that said, I continue to encourage those intrepid individuals who are vehemently acting as the defenders of KoN to put their money where their mouth is and assist those "poor KoN nations" who were damaged in the admittedly uncalled-for attacks by Athens and FoB.

[NoFish]

Hey Bilrow, remember that time you raided a 700 man alliance and then made them pay reps?

That was not a raid, it was an unprovoked war on an alliance for which they posted a declaration of war without any valid casus belli. Which, in the end, was certainly their sovereign right to do, but to pretend it was "just a tech raid" just makes you look silly.

Any rebuttal, Brookbanks?

[Some-Guy]

Hey Bilrow, remember that time you raided a 700 man alliance and then made them pay reps?

As much as I don't want to stick up for Bilrow, he was probably in GGA at the time of the Woodstock Massacre, probably trying to shove Gramlins around or some such.

That's not a sin we can paint Bilrow or GGA with just us suck $@! Initiative alliances (minus them there Gramlins).

[Bilrow]

This gives me an idea.

2 Days and NPO Still Sucking At Logic And PR, And Whining About Irrelevant Matters

(i hear saying it bigger makes people listen better)

2 Days since Bilrow broke my heart and still no resolution.

While I am flattered by your flattery since imitation is the highest form of flattery, I must ask you to please stay on topic with the thread. In case, you have forgotten, we are discussing how long it will take for Athens to pay their reps for their violation of an alliance and calling it a "tech raid."

I also agree with Chairman Hal, which in itself is scary enough, Athens should have had each of their nations who participated in the "tech raid" send 3 million dollars to the nation they attacked and then worked out a final agreement with the government of Knights of Ni! if more reps was requested by the victim of the egregious action. Yes, it might not be efficient and breaks the paradigm of how Athens would want to utilize their slots, but hey just remember Karma is a !@#$%*. Maybe next time they will take that into consideration into their thought process when they get a wild idea.

Of course, the hypocrisy of those running around flailing their arms trying to distract people and cause diversion of my announcement while pointing out my alliance affiliation is humorous to say the least. I am not a member of government so if you don't like the content of my announcement, then you are stuck with two choices ignore my announcements or continue your fits and name calling. I promise I won't lose sleep over you not liking me or my announcement, because guess what you aren't that important to me or my existence. Stop kidding yourselves. It's also not going to shut me up.

I look forward to the day when I will be able to report to the cyberverse the initiation of the reparation payments to the Knights of Ni!.

[JBone]

You know this thread was actually going pretty well for you. It'll be interesting to see if anyone picks up on the apparent turn-around you've just made here though. Asserting that because your alleged victims are quiet you must be treating them well is a real interesting tactic.

I thought the exact same thing. The OP was just Bilrow being Bilrow and when explanation was given, most rational folks could agree that if no figure has been agreed upon, how can payment be made?

As for how payment is made...eh, Delta kinda quashed any complaints on that one. TPFs allies handled most of the PC reps we owed and the rest we sent off to California directly.....instead of PC. (one would think Athens & FoB would have remembered that mess before creating one of their own). It worked out ok for all involved.

Yes, you do owe them reparations and yes, you did fold under intense external pressure. This sort of post does certainly raise your status as an expert on horse manure, though, so you got that going for you at least.

Once again, hive mind.

Listen here pal, whether you want to admit it or not you do indeed owe reps, you might be able to stand up on your box with your new found power and proclaim what ever you believe to be an absolute truth but it merely throws you in with the likes of Goons v1.0 and \m/ and we all know how well there arrogance worked out for them.

KoFN was and is an alliance by just about all accepted definitions, to pull that "individual nation" BS in the same sentence as mentioning KoFN is an act that deserves to get your named smeared. I for one will enjoy linking back to this brilliant post of yours when Karma decides to pay you a visit.

Way easier to quote this than type it all out myself. Although I would never compare Athens to \m/, they were a respectable group, nor would I compare them to GOONS, at least they were funny.....on purpose.

Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

LOL, so much for you looking good. You really should have let the more level headed (and less paragraphically challenged) members of you alliance continue on their own......but we all know you just couldn't resist. Congratulations, in one fell swoop you have invalidated what seemed like dozens of "I'm Sorry" threads we had to suffer through after you pulled your little stunt and got spanked by big brother.

Yes, you do owe reps.

You decided to do what you were told to do...or else.

It wasn't clear that they had an actual community when you saw they had 40 nations? Oh Please.

Perhaps the "Peanut Gallery" (apologies Mr. Moose) ranting and raving had no influence on your actions....but someones sure did.

Moral Compass, I loled.

Crap-flinging and crap-sticking has little to do with why people despise you.

....as for smearing your name, you own a mirror?

[dejarue]

Bilrow: Are you going out of your way to seclude NPO and make you look like the kids who should stay banished to the corner or something? Because if so, you're doing a bangup job.

This is pathetic. You're decrying them for not using enough aid slots to pay their reps. That's absurd.

Edited December 2, 2009 by deja

[Jasmines Jewels]

I don't see the issue here, it says that "or sending external aid offers to any nation other than an approved reparations target". If Athens is giving you the target, and counting it towards your reps total, than that is an "approved" target, is it not? The precedent has already been set that that is OK, as several alliances have forwarded some of their reps, OV to GUN, Athens and RoK to MK.

That was my point of the response to the person who asked if our terms allowed us to send out to different alliances. I wasn't posting it as an issue, just a clarification that it is indeed allowed per signed terms.

[supercoolyellow]

Shouldn't this be a count up?

I don't see the number of days that Athens has gone with out giving aid going "down" in number

*This post should be taken as playful banter and not trolling

[Some-Guy]

While I am flattered by your flattery since imitation is the highest form of flattery, I must ask you to please stay on topic with the thread. In case, you have forgotten, we are discussing how long it will take for Athens to pay their reps for their violation of an alliance and calling it a "tech raid."

Ok, sorry.

I also agree with Chairman Hal, which in itself is scary enough,

This topic is not about whether or not you agree with Chairman Hal. You will have to raise another talking point to debate that matter on the international stage. We are discussing how long it will take for Athens to pay their reps for their violation of an alliance. Please remain on topic.

Athens should have had each of their nations who participated in the "tech raid" send 3 million dollars to the nation they attacked and then worked out a final agreement with the government of Knights of Ni! if more reps was requested by the victim of the egregious action. Yes, it might not be efficient and breaks the paradigm of how Athens would want to utilize their slots, but hey just remember Karma is a !@#$%*. Maybe next time they will take that into consideration into their thought process when they get a wild idea.

This topic is not about your opinions on what Athens should have done in this matter, it is simply a discussion on how long it will take for Athens to pay their reps for their violation of an alliance. Please remain on topic.

Of course, the hypocrisy of those running around flailing their arms trying to distract people and cause diversion of my announcement while pointing out my alliance affiliation is humorous to say the least. I am not a member of government so if you don't like the content of my announcement, then you are stuck with two choices ignore my announcements or continue your fits and name calling. I promise I won't lose sleep over you not liking me or my announcement, because guess what you aren't that important to me or my existence. Stop kidding yourselves. It's also not going to shut me up.

This topic is not about your ego, it is simply a discussion on how long it will take for Athens to pay their reps for their violation of an alliance. Please remain on topic.

I look forward to the day when I will be able to report to the cyberverse the initiation of the reparation payments to the Knights of Ni!.

Thank you for remaining on topic. Have a cookie.

[Iotupa]

That was not a raid, it was an unprovoked war on an alliance for which they posted a declaration of war without any valid casus belli. Which, in the end, was certainly their sovereign right to do, but to pretend it was "just a tech raid" just makes you look silly.

Any rebuttal, Brookbanks?

As fun as it would be to have clones, I am the only Brookbank around here. I personally hated the GPA war, but you seem to be missing the point. GPA was declared upon by the alliances that fought it. Athens committed their alliance to a full scale war WITHOUT bothering to post a declaration of war or any casus belli, even a terrible one like the one used in the GPA war.

You basically just proved my point that you people have no real ability to discuss or hold your own in an argument, as you attempted to mock what I said by misquoting me and showing that I was correct with my statement about Athens not declaring war or having a casus belli.

So, I guess I owe you a thanks.

EDIT: This will be the end of my pointing out that people, even in a post-NPO run world, can't form proper arguments based on the discussion at hand and must resort to character assassination and alliance mudslinging. I'll only be back to respond to anyone that attempts to provide any sort of rebuttal to something I myself have posted. As a final thought, I appreciate the fact that Athens is working to find an agreeable and fair reparations amount and will be paying the reparations using their own nations, as Londo said earlier. This is truly the honorable and just way to end what has been a terrible situation.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[Iotupa]

Shouldn't this be a count up?

I don't see the number of days that Athens has gone with out giving aid going "down" in number

*This post should be taken as playful banter and not trolling

I actually made this point earlier in the thread as well.