Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[SpiderJerusalem]

I guess no one will answer my question about TOP accepting reparations they didn't deserve then?

But, the question have been answered in private by a TOP member though

You could always try contacting them in private.

Hi there Archon...

[TheEraser]

Oh, I most certainly agree with you. I was just using that as an example as to why NO ONE should be saying anything like that. Every alliance is guilty of it at some point or another, so it's silly for all of these pots to be calling all of these kettles black.

ehh you're probably right. I actually kind of like TOP, most of the time anyways, but when you say that....

Reps in general are rarely deserved in my opinion.

[Iotupa]

Even more hilariously, that's his name.

Funny.

He actually was. It was so appropriate that at first I didn't actually believe it to be a real account.

I would have assumed the same.

ehh you're probably right. I actually kind of like TOP, most of the time anyways, but when you say that....

Reps in general are rarely deserved in my opinion.

I strongly dislike reps in nearly all situations. So we're on the same wavelength here, I suppose.

[Xiphosis]

Allies, especially larger, strong allies with more political clout and weight behind them, negotiate on behalf of other allies quite often. This sort of thing isn't uncommon at all and under the circumstances STA's actions were perfectly reasonable. You're arguing a non-point.

Oh Heft. How happy I am with every passing day to not be among people who think like you do. What a !@#$ty world it'd be. Among my kinds of people we reserve equal respect for our MDP partners. We don't trample all over someones right to run their own affairs because we're bigger. May as well just make them a puppet state at that point.

Much of our reason to hold that belief is and was circumstantial, and Kronos has since been able to alleviate, explain, or cast doubt on some of our concerns on that front, which is why we were happy to settle for a lesser sum than was originally agreed

In summation, we were shown to be wrong and nerdraging, but we took it on ourselves to accept reparations anyway - ones Kronos never got a say in. Good effort suger coating though.

[Chasmic Descent]

Considering that the evidence was circumstantial, and that Kronos has since been able to cast doubt on some of your concerns, do you guys in STA believe that a symbolic gesture of returning the tech to TOP could be more benifical than keeping the token symbol of 300 tech, if it helped in keeping a better relationship with TOP/Kronos; considering as Masterof9puppets said in this thread, that the mistake on Kronos' behalf may not have merited any reperations?

Edited November 24, 2009 by Chasmic Descent

[Bilrow]

I strongly dislike reps in nearly all situations. So we're on the same wavelength here, I suppose.

Who are you and what have you done with the real Jonathan Brookbank who got into a fight with Sponge over the fact you thought reps should be paid.

[Heft]

Oh Heft. How happy I am with every passing day to not be among people who think like you do. What a !@#$ty world it'd be. Among my kinds of people we reserve equal respect for our MDP partners. We don't trample all over someones right to run their own affairs because we're bigger. May as well just make them a puppet state at that point.

I wasn't making any value judgment on whether the practice should be approved of or not, just that it is common enough that in this instance there was no reason to think anything odd of it. This seems like a rather odd response to such a neutral and innocuous comment.

[NoFish]

I wasn't making any value judgment on whether the practice should be approved of or not, just that it is common enough that in this instance there was no reason to think anything odd of it. This seems like a rather odd response to such a neutral and innocuous comment.

"Common enough" meaning "the NPO did it all the time so that means it's okay?" Because, seriously, they're only alliance I can recall ever negotiating a peace deal without consulting the party they were negotiating on behalf of. Unless, of course, you'd care to bring up more examples?

[CptGodzilla]

I wasn't making any value judgment on whether the practice should be approved of or not, just that it is common enough that in this instance there was no reason to think anything odd of it. This seems like a rather odd response to such a neutral and innocuous comment.

I would hardly call it common, it has never happened to me, and I believe this is one of the first times I have actually seen it portrayed on the OWF.

[Iotupa]

Who are you and what have you done with the real Jonathan Brookbank who got into a fight with Sponge over the fact you thought reps should be paid.

Bilrow, that was a long time ago. I've long since changed my views. Also, only half of that fight was over reps themselves, the other half was that Sponge took it upon himself to negotiate with FAN without the rest of the Initiative.

"Common enough" meaning "the NPO did it all the time so that means it's okay?" Because, seriously, they're only alliance I can recall ever negotiating a peace deal without consulting the party they were negotiating on behalf of. Unless, of course, you'd care to bring up more examples?

To be honest, though I find the act not very pleasant myself, Heft is correct. It is/was fairly common. At the moment I cannot think of any specific examples, but I did feel it was necessary to point out that Heft wasn't really just pulling it out of his $@!.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[bzelger]

Considering that the evidence was circumstantial, and that Kronos has since been able to cast doubt on some of your concerns, do you guys in STA believe that a symbolic gesture of returning the tech to TOP could be more benifical than keeping the token symbol of 300 tech, if it helped in keeping a better relationship with TOP/Kronos; considering as Masterof9puppets said in this thread, that the mistake on Kronos' behalf may not have merited any reperations?

Some of it is circumstantial, and it is not necessarily wrong, just not hard fact (e.g., it is technically possible that Heracles was buying infra when he had 4000, it seems unlikely from our end, but it's not perfectly demonstrable). Some of it is hard. I'm not going to rehash it in public because we're done with that and I have no desire to cast aspersions on any of the folks in Kronos over an issue that's resolved. We are satisfied with the present compromise and will leave it there.

Sending TOP tech to compensate them for their own errors and dishonesty seems a bit much even if it were the case that Kronos' actions didn't merit recompense, which it is not.

[Iotupa]

Some of it is circumstantial, and it is not necessarily wrong, just not hard fact (e.g., it is technically possible that Heracles was buying infra when he had 4000, it seems unlikely from our end, but it's not perfectly demonstrable). Some of it is hard. I'm not going to rehash it in public because we're done with that and I have no desire to cast aspersions on any of the folks in Kronos over an issue that's resolved. We are satisfied with the present compromise and will leave it there.

Sending TOP tech to compensate them for their own errors and dishonesty seems a bit much even if it were the case that Kronos' actions didn't merit recompense, which it is not.

Between the lines of your post, I seem to be reading "I don't really care whether things get smoothed over with TOP/Kronos, I REALLY WANT THIS 300 TECH."

Is 300 tech really worth THAT much? I've sold that much tech in the last couple of weeks.

[Chasmic Descent]

Sending TOP tech to compensate them for their own errors and dishonesty seems a bit much even if it were the case that Kronos' actions didn't merit recompense, which it is not.

Fair enough. I was thinking more along the lines of returning it because it was reperations paid on behalf of Kronos, and Kronos has now made clear they never wanted this to happen, rather than compensating TOP. But prehaps TOP deserve a little 300 tech spank for their actions (which does sound like an accident from what I've heard, albeit a big one.)

[Gofastleft]

I had a sense of deja vu when I started reading about a negotiation gone bad involving TOP being part of negotiation for a friend.

[steodonn]

I hope this sets a precedent that any alliance attacking an ex-member for going rogue also has to pay reps to the alliance that the rogue attacked for denying them the chance to reclaim tech and land lost.

Surely you would lose more tech/land ( plus lost infa ) in the war it wouldn't make it worth it

Its more of the revenge factor that makes alliances want to deal with rouges attacking them and not have someone else do it. Also lolTOP who seem to handle things great

[Bilrow]

I had a sense of deja vu when I started reading about a negotiation gone bad involving TOP being part of negotiation for a friend.

TOP loves to negotiate to save their stats. They attempted it when the situation with GOONS and GGA, with Crymson playing morality police and offering to pay the reps to GOONS. So knowing TOPs history, it's not a surprise really.

Anyone who is shocked, has not paid attention.

[Ragashingo]

Between the lines of your post, I seem to be reading "I don't really care whether things get smoothed over with TOP/Kronos, I REALLY WANT THIS 300 TECH."

Is 300 tech really worth THAT much? I've sold that much tech in the last couple of weeks.

This is real simple. Kronos admitted they made a mistake. They agreed to pay for it. Case closed.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

Edited November 24, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Tygaland]

Exactly sta was just looking to come out "ahead". I just feel like everyone could have done a better job here. And I'm sure Kronos feels like they had one pulled over their head, and I'm sure sta is more then happy with the 300 tech. People say I'm arguing a non-point, but I'm just asking for decent terms and actions to happen in and on Planet Bob. I will not even get into the fact that I think that kronos was not even in the wrong here.

Once again congrats STA on grabbing up yhe free tech

OK, I think I have read enough of your statements to come in and correct your assumptions.

1. The STA did talk directly to Kronos.

2. When TOP contacted the STA we were waiting for Kronos to get back to us.

3. Crymson stated to me that he was discussing the issue with Kronos leadership and asked me what the STA wanted so he could take that back to Kronos. To me he was acting as a mediator, not stepping in for Kronos.

4. My original request was a simple peacing of the active rogue attack on the STA

5. When asked by Crymson if there was any other alternative I said that peacing out of White Majik's defensive slots and 600 tech would be an acceptable compromise. The 600 tech was to be token compensation for the war slot swapping on Heracles and the general hinderance to STA defending her member based on two rogue attacks.

6. Crymson, after some discussion with Kronos (I assume as there were long pauses from him before responding and he alluded to having 2 gov members in agreement and one on the fence), said the deal was agreed. At this time KGB was also talking to me and echoed that sentiment. He even asked me if this was acceptable to us to confimr the deal was done.

7. I gave Crymson a list of tech recipients as per his request and the next day we received half the tech agreed to.

8. A day later we heard rumours that Kronos had not agreed to the deal and were trying to block the second lot of tech.

9. The STA asked TOP if this was the case and they said they would check it out and get back to us.

10. Yesterday I logged on to a meeting between the STA and Kronos mediated by TOP and the NpO.

11. After a lot of circular argument I asked Kronos what they wanted as far as a deal was concerned. They said that the STA can have the 300 tech we received as an apology for the re-filling of Heracles war slots and that we would not get the second 300 tech payment.

12. Seeing as White Majik has only nuked me once as opposed to the standard 7 times I was happy to forgo the second 300 tech and seeing as his defensive slots has been cleared (and almost immediately filled by other alliances) I was happy with the deal to walk away with the 300 tech.

As you can see, the STA negotiated in good faith throughout and sadly for whatever reason a deal we had considered binding was tossed out yesterday. Yesterday we again sought a deal satisfactory to both parties and I believe we achieved that.

I'm well aware the usual malcontents will continue making up stories but the above is how things panned out from my perspective and I believe the STA conducted itself with integrity throughout. Those saying we wanted to come out ahead in this must be kidding themselves as the damage done to my nation far outstrips the 300 tech or even 600 tech. The STA wanted to make a stand against these types of rogue shenanigans and we were perfectly within our right to do so.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Tygaland

[bkphysics]

OK, I think I have read enough of your statements to come in and correct your assumptions.

1. The STA did talk directly to Kronos.

2. When TOP contacted the STA we were waiting for Kronos to get back to us.

3. Crymson stated to me that he was discussing the issue with Kronos leadership and asked me what the STA wanted so he could take that back to Kronos. To me he was acting as a mediator, not stepping in for Kronos.

4. My original request was a simple peacing of the active rogue attack on the STA

5. When asked by Crymson if there was any other alternative I said that peacing out of White Majik's defensive slots and 600 tech would be an acceptable compromise. The 600 tech was to be token compensation for the war slot swapping on Heracles and the general hinderance to STA defending her member based on two rogue attacks.

6. Crymson, after some discussion with Kronos (I assume as there were long pauses from him before responding and he alluded to having 2 gov members in agreement and one on the fence), said the deal was agreed. At this time KGB was also talking to me and echoed that sentiment. He even asked me if this was acceptable to us to confimr the deal was done.

7. I gave Crymson a list of tech recipients as per his request and the next day we received half the tech agreed to.

8. A day later we heard rumours that Kronos had not agreed to the deal and were trying to block the second lot of tech.

9. The STA asked TOP if this was the case and they said they would check it out and get back to us.

10. Yesterday I logged on to a meeting between the STA and Kronos mediated by TOP and the NpO.

11. After a lot of circular argument I asked Kronos what they wanted as far as a deal was concerned. They said that the STA can have the 300 tech we received as an apology for the re-filling of Heracles war slots and that we would not get the second 300 tech payment.

12. Seeing as White Majik has only nuked me once as opposed to the standard 7 times I was happy to forgo the second 300 tech and seeing as his defensive slots has been cleared (and almost immediately filled by other alliances) I was happy with the deal to walk away with the 300 tech.

As you can see, the STA negotiated in good faith throughout and sadly for whatever reason a deal we had considered binding was tossed out yesterday. Yesterday we again sought a deal satisfactory to both parties and I believe we achieved that.

I'm well aware the usual malcontents will continue making up stories but the above is how things panned out from my perspective and I believe the STA conducted itself with integrity throughout. Those saying we wanted to come out ahead in this must be kidding themselves as the damage done to my nation far outstrips the 300 tech or even 600 tech. The STA wanted to make a stand against these types of rogue shenanigans and we were perfectly within our right to do so.

Clearly Tyga is a monster! The injustice being detailed in this recollection of events is ... err Hmm.

I got nothing ...

[Eden Taylor]

...

As you can see, the STA negotiated in good faith throughout and sadly for whatever reason a deal we had considered binding was tossed out yesterday. Yesterday we again sought a deal satisfactory to both parties and I believe we achieved that.

I'm well aware the usual malcontents will continue making up stories but the above is how things panned out from my perspective and I believe the STA conducted itself with integrity throughout. Those saying we wanted to come out ahead in this must be kidding themselves as the damage done to my nation far outstrips the 300 tech or even 600 tech. The STA wanted to make a stand against these types of rogue shenanigans and we were perfectly within our right to do so.

Sorry, but you're operating under the assumption that you had the right to ask anything of Kronos to begin with or in the middle or at the end. Rogues have nothing to do with alliances by their very definition, but then again I guess when you have the political might behind you you can change the definition.

[Tygaland]

Sorry, but you're operating under the assumption that you had the right to ask anything of Kronos to begin with or in the middle or at the end. Rogues have nothing to do with alliances by their very definition, but then again I guess when you have the political might behind you you can change the definition.

I'll only ask you this once to go back and read what I said. The compensation was for denying the STA a chance to defend their member by colluding with the rogue to re-fill war slots in a coordinated move that required full cooperation from the rogue. Kronos has admitted this was an error of judgement and when I asked what they wanted for a resolution they stated the 300 tech was an "apology" for that action.

You may be of the opinion that we had no right to request compensation but I disagree. Coordinating with a rogue to prevent the alliance of the rogue target from defending their member I find to be a low act worthy of such an apology.

[pezstar]

Sorry, but you're operating under the assumption that you had the right to ask anything of Kronos to begin with or in the middle or at the end. Rogues have nothing to do with alliances by their very definition, but then again I guess when you have the political might behind you you can change the definition.

Tyga beat me.

Edited November 24, 2009 by pezstar

[Sulmar]

Sorry, but you're operating under the assumption that you had the right to ask anything of Kronos to begin with or in the middle or at the end. Rogues have nothing to do with alliances by their very definition, but then again I guess when you have the political might behind you you can change the definition.

Yes, rogues do have nothing to do with the alliance they come from, and the alliance obviously doesn't have to pay reps for that, but that isn't really what the argument was about.

If you had seen the war declarations, it was very suspicious. Basically right after Heracles declared war on Tyga people from Kronos occupied his defensive war slots. It seemed to me that at least some communication between Heracles and Kronos had happened, and I would rightfully be annoyed as STA if a person that went rogue on their leader was not able to be counter-attacked. Then comes White Majik and his DoW, and it all just adds up to some very suspicious circumstances.

[Eden Taylor]

I'll only ask you this once to go back and read what I said. The compensation was for denying the STA a chance to defend their member by colluding with the rogue to re-fill war slots in a coordinated move that required full cooperation from the rogue. Kronos has admitted this was an error of judgement and when I asked what they wanted for a resolution they stated the 300 tech was an "apology" for that action.

You may be of the opinion that we had no right to request compensation but I disagree. Coordinating with a rogue to prevent the alliance of the rogue target from defending their member I find to be a low act worthy of such an apology.

No, I see that. I disagree with you and Kronos then.

[Ragashingo]

Sorry, but you're operating under the assumption that you had the right to ask anything of Kronos to begin with or in the middle or at the end. Rogues have nothing to do with alliances by their very definition, but then again I guess when you have the political might behind you you can change the definition.

Bah! Tyga beat me too.