Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[Wu Tang Clan]

No it doesn't make sense. If he wanted to hurt sta that bad he would have declared on more. He clearly had his eyes out for tyga here. The same amount of damage could have been done to tyga. But as nutkase keeps explaing we are fighting over nothing. Its all hypothetical

Really? That’s rather naïve don’t you think?

Had an alliance he declared war on attacked him instead of an alliance he founded he would have been much more inclined to use nuclear weapons.

Nuking an STA nation that attacks him would be much easier then nuking people that used to be his comrades. I mean seriously? Please tell me you don’t actually believe that.

Ya it't all hypthetical, but it is a highly likely hypothetical, basically a sure thing.

[mrSonny]

I should find the quote that gave me the impression that Heracles would certainly be nuking STA nations if they attacked him, but I don't really have the time right now. Citing his nukes remaining at the death of his nation is irrelevant to the discussion. Kronos didn't know his nation would disappear a week or so later when they took up the slots, so why should it be a valid defence for their actions? He certainly wouldn't have had so many nukes left when he deleted had people not been spying away his cruise missiles and had he had more SDIs to aim them at.

If all Kronos members had every intention of being nuked (really? Haven't seen that claimed anywhere before) why did they have no intentions of nuking. Did they still expect to be nuked when they cooperated with Heracles to peace out of all of the wars that they hadn't been nuked in and have him declared on again to fill every slot? Apart from DeCaelo of course who is crazy and has lame nukes anyway

When Kronos nations took those slots they weren't expecting his sudden disappearing act a week or so later, so as I said before I don't see it as a valid defence for what they did. The short length of the war made their actions partly inconsequential, more by dumb luck than their planning. The simple matter is if you have 4 SDIs to aim at per day, you'll use up more nukes quicker than if you're just aiming at the single SDI. Unless my maths is completely out of whack, a good possibility, the odds suggest you'd run out of a stockpile of 25 nukes pretty quickly, even buying two a day. You wouldn't be able to nuke everyone you planned to for 7 days straight.

Once again he SAID he would nuke. Does that mean he would have? We don't know and I'm pretty sure that him getting deleted was an accident. Profanity on world boards is a nurr nurr. And yes citing his nukes is relevant because we do not know for sure if he would have actually nuked other sta members. Also if they were planning all this(slot filling that is) why would he state that he would nuke all sta members? That's right because it wasn't planned.

And yes decaelo is crazy..

[Auctor]

Then the argument that Kronos saved the STA from further nuclear damage is invalidated. You can't have it both ways.

I am in agreement with your observation sir, silly hypothetical argument is silly.

[nutkase]

The simple matter is if you have 4 SDIs to aim at per day, you'll use up more nukes quicker than if you're just aiming at the single SDI. Unless my maths is completely out of whack, a good possibility, the odds suggest you'd run out of a stockpile of 25 nukes pretty quickly, even buying two a day. You wouldn't be able to nuke everyone you planned to for 7 days straight.

AGAIN, this is all hypothetical.

How do you know for sure that if STA nations got slots that he would nuke them?

Seriously, I could say "Since STA might be against us in a future war, we declare war on you now instead".

You cannot use a Hypothetical scenario as a valid theory.

EDIT: My spelling fails ;P

Edited November 25, 2009 by nutkase

[John Diesel]

Since this happened while I slept, I just want to say congrats to both sides for working stuff out. Usually, people are too war-hungry to pass up a chance to raise the GR level.

Now someone pass me the damn turkey!

[Jyrinx]

Then he could have, you know, just not nuked them if this is the case. I didn't know Heracles well, but he certainly seemed smart enough to, you know, do whichever was going to cause the most damage to people he didn't like. You speak as though he would have had to have nuked those nations if they declared on him, like it was some sort of Rogue's code that "Ye Must Nuke Every Nation Ye Be At War With Lest They Be From Yer Own Alliance."

Maybe the Kronos nations on him kept STA from receiving additional damage, I would certainly think so, but it's possible they didn't. However to imply that by not letting more STA nations get attacked the STA somehow took more damage is just absurd.

The argument is that one of our members took more damage, which would've been diverted away. That's what an alliance does, it helps protect its members.

STA nations attacking Heracles would've put Heracles under pressure to either attack them or risk losing his tech to STA attackers, something I doubt he's ok with. If he truly wouldn't have attacked STA attackers, we still wanted those slots to put that pressure on him.

Also, as someone from Kronos stated our primary objection is the re-declaration of wars with coordinated peacing out 1 day before the wars expired. Kronos claims this was done to raid Heracles while minimizing damage done to STA nations. This obviously assumes Heracles would've nuked us, which Kronos appears to consent to by making the argument in the first place. In that case, Kronos should've let us have those slots. But even if Heracles wouldn't have attacked the STA attackers, we would've liked those slots to defend our own member while putting pressure on Heracles to nuke the other STA nations.

Kronos knew we wanted those slots since we explicitly requested them. That they coordinated a peace out a day before hand and then re-declared to continue raiding shows that they just didn't care about Tyga being rogued on at all. It prevented STA from defending our member and putting pressure on Heracles. That's the essence of our grievance, not so much the rogue attack itself.

[Wu Tang Clan]

Once again he SAID he would nuke. Does that mean he would have? We don't know and I'm pretty sure that him getting deleted was an accident. Profanity on world boards is a nurr nurr. And yes citing his nukes is relevant because we do not know for sure if he would have actually nuked other sta members. Also if they were planning all this(slot filling that is) why would he state that he would nuke all sta members? That's right because it wasn't planned.

And yes decaelo is crazy..

So he's smart enough to plan on focusing his entire nuclear arsenal on Tyga, but he's not smart enough to plan a war slot filling with an alliance he was a member of? Because it would have been so hard...

[mrSonny]

Really? That’s rather naïve don’t you think?

Had an alliance he declared war on attacked him instead of an alliance he founded he would have been much more inclined to use nuclear weapons.

Nuking an STA nation that attacks him would be much easier then nuking people that used to be his comrades. I mean seriously? Please tell me you don’t actually believe that.

Ya it't all hypthetical, but it is a highly likely hypothetical, basically a sure thing.

No. Its not a sure thing. Did you know Hearcles? Even if you did I talked to him daily and you are giving him far less credit then he deserves. Once again if he wanted damage done to sta as an AA he would have declared on more.

[Jyrinx]

AGAIN, this is all hypothetical.

How do you know for sure that if STA nations got slots that he would nuke them?

Seriously, I could say "Since STA might be against us in a future war, we declare war on you now instead".

You cannot use a Hypothetical scenario as a valid theory.

EDIT: My spelling fails ;P

He would've been under more pressure to nuke the attackers than if the attackers were his comrades. It's a better defense of Tyga.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Jyrinx

[mrSonny]

So he's smart enough to plan on focusing his entire nuclear arsenal on Tyga, but he's not smart enough to plan a war slot filling with an alliance he was a member of? Because it would have been so hard...

He could sure have set up warslot filling. Also I'm sure him getting fully attack/except nukes was part of his warslot filling. I'm sure if that was really the case here there would have been a dow on the evil kronos.

[mrSonny]

He would've been under more pressure to nuke the attackers than if the attackers were his comrades. It's a better defense of Tyga.

He would have been under no pressure at all the nuke the attackers.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Once again he SAID he would nuke. Does that mean he would have? We don't know and I'm pretty sure that him getting deleted was an accident.

Eugh, really? He said he would nuke. He said himself, that he would nuke, yet we can't assume that he would nuke. I see no logic in that. Also I'm not saying it was an accident, I'm saying when the wars were declared they didn't know he was going to disappear so suddenly.

And yes citing his nukes is relevant because we do not know for sure if he would have actually nuked other sta members. Also if they were planning all this(slot filling that is) why would he state that he would nuke all sta members? That's right because it wasn't planned.

Yet again he said he would nuke. If we can't work off of the assumption that he would nuke if he said he would I'm done with this nonsense.

And yes decaelo is crazy..

Something everyone involved can agree on.

If all Kronos members had every intention of being nuked (really? Haven't seen that claimed anywhere before) why did they have no intentions of nuking. Did they still expect to be nuked when they cooperated with Heracles to peace out of all of the wars that they hadn't been nuked in and have him declared on again to fill every slot?

Edit: Added in a point you did not address regarding a claim you made earlier on.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Poyplemonkeys

[nutkase]

He would've been under more pressure to nuke the attackers than if the attackers were his comrades. It's a better defense of Tyga.

Not really, since he was going to delete or at least go to ZI, I wouldn't say that increased pressure would make him use the nukes against the other STA nations.

Going by what I know, he wanted to hit Tyga as a person not STA as a alliance. So then he would use all his forces to hit Tyga rather then dispersing his strength to fight others.

But like I said numerous times....this is all hypothetical. You cannot make a accusation or thread based on such a thing.

[Jyrinx]

He would have been under no pressure at all the nuke the attackers.

Well, it appears we must respectfully disagree on that count. But this is what we believed. We believed Heracles would indeed have at least been under pressure to nuke STA attackers, as Kronos themselves stated a few times.

Regardless, the issue is settled so I don't see much of a point re-hashing this for debate. Just wanted to let you know what we thought.

Cheers.

[Jyrinx]

Not really, since he was going to delete or at least go to ZI, I wouldn't say that increased pressure would make him use the nukes against the other STA nations.

Going by what I know, he wanted to hit Tyga as a person not STA as a alliance. So then he would use all his forces to hit Tyga rather then dispersing his strength to fight others.

But like I said numerous times....this is all hypothetical. You cannot make a accusation or thread based on such a thing.

Right, I understand the ZI thing I was referring to his tech being taken by STA nations in the defense of Tyga. We believed it would at the very least put pressure on Heracles to nuke them. Our accusation was the war slot filling denying us even the chance to defend an STA member. If you don't accept the argument, we must just disagree on this then. No point saying over and over again we disagree

[nutkase]

Yet again he said he would nuke. If we can't work off of the assumption that he would nuke if he said he would I'm done with this nonsense.

Everyone assumes different, it is human nature.

Until I see actual evidence stating that he would, I still assume that all this talk is of a hypothetical nature. Sorry but I am not in the "trusting others" buisness.

[nutkase]

Right, I understand the ZI thing I was referring to his tech being taken by STA nations in the defense of Tyga. We believed it would at the very least put pressure on Heracles to nuke them. Our accusation was the war slot filling denying us even the chance to defend an STA member. If you don't accept the argument, we must just disagree on this then. No point saying over and over again we disagree

Agree to disagree

[Drostan]

Really? That’s rather naïve don’t you think?

Had an alliance he declared war on attacked him instead of an alliance he founded he would have been much more inclined to use nuclear weapons.

Nuking an STA nation that attacks him would be much easier then nuking people that used to be his comrades. I mean seriously? Please tell me you don’t actually believe that.

Ya it't all hypthetical, but it is a highly likely hypothetical, basically a sure thing.

Sorry, man. You seem to think Heracles was an idiot. He had no trouble sending ARs, GAs, etc against us when he had huge odds advantages. He didn't mind stealing my tech despite being a close friend. He loved war. He didn't send nukes because he would have been wasting them. As someone who knew him, I can assure you that he had a very specific beef with Tyga hence why he didn't declare on the rest of STA's government. He had one target and tried to do as much damage to that target as possible (as most rogues with a specific aim in mind do). He's been around way too long to be distracted by whoever else was in his slots. The only thing that could be done is for those people to do as much damage to him as quickly as possible and that's how it went down.

AirMe: You're supposed to be a nice guy, but you are straight up talking smack right now. (ooc: the game has rules against slot filling and Tyga filed a report which was unsuccessful. If you think otherwise, take it up with admin /ooc). We launched a full compliment of attacks on Heracles like clockwork and those who deny it have their heads... somewhere other than on their shoulders. I am sure Heracles had other prime targets on his hit list, doesn't mean he'd magically turn into an idiot who didn't know how to deal out maximum damage to them. Your post is just blind speculation and accusation. I don't care how nice your manners are, you're being a jerk right now, AirMe. (ooc: it might have been reasonable to assume we were slot filling until Admin investigated it and said we weren't. It is no longer reasonable and neither are you /ooc).

It's funny to me to see people essentially justifying war over this. And what is your argument? It looks suspicious (if you ignore the damage Heracles took). It's a brave new world indeed. I will say that STA has some mighty fine friends though because they are flailing like mad to make the threat of war justified no matter how awkward. Anyway, people who have never seriously considered going rogue will continue to think that it would have saved Tyga had big bad Kronos not fought Heracles instead.

I can only hope that our next member of government to go rogue will choose his target wisely and will give us heads up so we can do that thing we do... you know the one I am talking about...

EDIT: Our government was disorganized and did not handle this as well as possible to be sure (Heracles was a big part of our community and suddenly we didn't have a father figure). I think mostly the slots got filled because people wanted to raid Heracles on the way out. Not out of benevolence towards the STA nor out of malice. That is why I declared. I did not redeclare after the first round of wars, but those who did probably knew that Heracles was not long for this world at that point. Should Kronos have offered a slot to STA? Yeah, probably. Should STA have asked for 1B in reps and threatened war? Hellz naw. Should Kronos have rejected this and braced for war? Hell yes.

Anyway, I'll take another opportunity to berate the treaty web here. What we had here was a clear failure of communication in which a small-scale conflict between a few parties would have been a reasonable outcome. Sadly, it got massively interfered with because every war is a global war today.

Wu Tang: So essentially your argument is that Heracles was smart enough to rogue properly thus Kronos was war slot filling. Brilliant.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Drostan

[mrSonny]

Not really, since he was going to delete or at least go to ZI, I wouldn't say that increased pressure would make him use the nukes against the other STA nations.

Going by what I know, he wanted to hit Tyga as a person not STA as a alliance. So then he would use all his forces to hit Tyga rather then dispersing his strength to fight others.

But like I said numerous times....this is all hypothetical. You cannot make a accusation or thread based on such a thing.

No use bro. No use.

Well, it appears we must respectfully disagree on that count. But this is what we believed. We believed Heracles would indeed have at least been under pressure to nuke STA attackers, as Kronos themselves stated a few times.

Regardless, the issue is settled so I don't see much of a point re-hashing this for debate. Just wanted to let you know what we thought.

Cheers.

I don't know why you cant understand that just because 3 more sta members declared on him it doesn't mean he won't stop focusing all his attention on tyga. It was clearly resonnel. But your right its done and gone no using arguing.

[Jyrinx]

Sorry, man. You seem to think Heracles was an idiot. He had no trouble sending ARs, GAs, etc against us when he had huge odds advantages. He didn't mind stealing my tech despite being a close friend. He loved war. He didn't send nukes because he would have been wasting them. As someone who knew him, I can assure you that he had a very specific beef with Tyga hence why he didn't declare on the rest of STA's government. He had one target and tried to do as much damage to that target as possible (as most rogues with a specific aim in mind do). He's been around way too long to be distracted by whoever else was in his slots. The only thing that could be done is for those people to do as much damage to him as quickly as possible and that's how it went down.

AirMe: You're supposed to be a nice guy, but you are straight up talking smack right now. (ooc: the game has rules against slot filling and Tyga filed a report which was unsuccessful. If you think otherwise, take it up with admin /ooc). We launched a full compliment of attacks on Heracles like clockwork and those who deny it have their heads... somewhere other than on their shoulders. I am sure Heracles had other prime targets on his hit list, doesn't mean he'd magically turn into an idiot who didn't know how to deal out maximum damage to them. Your post is just blind speculation and accusation. I don't care how nice your manners are, you're being a jerk right now, AirMe. (ooc: it might have been reasonable to assume we were slot filling until Admin investigated it and said we weren't. It is no longer reasonable and neither are you /ooc).

It's funny to me to see people essentially justifying war over this. And what is your argument? It looks suspicious (if you ignore the damage Heracles took). It's a brave new world indeed. I will say that STA has some mighty fine friends though because they are flailing like mad to make the threat of war justified no matter how awkward. Anyway, people who have never seriously considered going rogue will continue to think that it would have saved Tyga had big bad Kronos not fought Heracles instead.

I can only hope that our next member of government to go rogue will choose his target wisely and will give us heads up so we can do that thing we do... you know the one I am talking about...

It wasn't that it would've saved Tyga*, it was that Kronos was profiting off of the roguery. If you weren't and were trying to do us a favor, don't you think you should've... asked us? The STA would've kindly declined your offer of aid during the second round of wars. We were skeptical as to the amount of damage Kronos nations were doing via our math, but even ignoring that we wanted the ability to defend our nations due to just the principle of the thing. When 3 Athenian rogues hit Skippy all at once, we declined Athens offers of assistance as we wanted those slots. But heck, even ignoring this argument the STA wanted to put pressure on Heracles to nuke STA nations as seeing his tech go to STAers would've probably put at least some pressure on him to nuke back.

It indeed does look suspicious, especially with the only Kronos nation nuking being the one without a WRC and with the least tech. The coordinated re-declaration a day before the wars expired, with rogue cooperation, was also suspicious. Our grievance can be viewed as circumstantial evidence, but the sheer amount of circumstantial evidence causes us to make a conclusion we view as valid. Could our damage calculations be incorrect. Sure, I guess Heracles could've done a donation deal randomly and thrown off our calculations. I guess there's an explanation as to why the weakest nuke nation was nuking Heracles. There could be an explanation for everything, but to do so is to ignore a pattern of activity in our view.

Again, you probably don't buy this argument at all. That's fine. We just have to disagree here and move on as neither of us appears to buy the other's view as acceptable. As the situation is resolved, it's kind of a moot point except perhaps as an intellectual exercise in how valid a CB this was. But even then it's horribly subjective as each side will say whatever benefits themselves

*For clarity, by "save" I mean completely nullify damage towards Tyga. We believed it had a chance to reduce damage on Tyga though.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Jyrinx

[nutkase]

It wasn't that it would've saved Tyga*, it was that Kronos was profiting off of the roguery.

Thats one I have not heard before.

Interesting theory, would like to see how you came to it.

[Drostan]

I can assure you that I had the lowest tech and the weakest nukes of the nations attacking Heracles and I did not nuke him (he had already been nuked when I tried). So you've run afoul in your estimates somewhere.

I did not re-declare on Heracles and I was one of the original attackers. That means my slot opened up and nobody took it. Sorry. I don't know how much time elapsed but still. It was hardly coordinated.

I don't worry about valid CBs, this planet has never cared for them before, and only pretended to when they were rolling NPO. There are individuals who do to be sure, but most only do when it suits them. I just find it funny how many third parties have reacted to the situation. I care less about all that than I do about dignity. And when someone barks at my door with what I consider outrageous demands and threatens me, I consider it a point of pride not to pay them the blood money.

EDIT: Somehow I missed commenting on us 'profiting' from the roguery. You mean tech-raiding? I thought we were open about that. Of course, eating one nuke sort of negates the value of tech raiding generally. But we were trying to tech raid, yes. Does STA have a policy of intervention against tech-raiding? Or is it basically that if someone rogues STA, people are not allowed to tech raid them?

Edited November 25, 2009 by Drostan

[Jyrinx]

Thats one I have not heard before.

Interesting theory, would like to see how you came to it.

It was mentioned waaay back. I have no desire to rehash it <.<.

There are posts in either this or the other thread. Or Kronos has the logs with our argument. They can give you our argument. They don't believe it mind you.

[Drostan]

It was mentioned waaay back. I have no desire to rehash it <.<.

There are posts in either this or the other thread. Or Kronos has the logs with our argument. They can give you our argument. They don't believe it mind you.

This argument sounds very strong whatever it may be.

EDIT: Speaking of arguments though, remember that State of the Alliance Address wherein you announced that you were pleased with how the rogue was being dealt with? What happened with that? What changed your mind? It didn't seem to you guys that he was taking minimal damage then. Hrm.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Drostan

[Jyrinx]

I can assure you that I had the lowest tech and the weakest nukes of the nations attacking Heracles and I did not nuke him (he had already been nuked when I tried). So you've run afoul in your estimates somewhere.

I did not re-declare on Heracles and I was one of the original attackers. That means my slot opened up and nobody took it. Sorry. I don't know how much time elapsed but still. It was hardly coordinated.

I don't worry about valid CBs, this planet has never cared for them before, and only pretended to when they were rolling NPO. There are individuals who do to be sure, but most only do when it suits them. I just find it funny how many third parties have reacted to the situation. I care less about all that than I do about dignity. And when someone barks at my door with what I consider outrageous demands and threatens me, I consider it a point of pride not to pay them the blood money.

I wasn't the one that ran the math, so perhaps it was wrong. I can point you to our calculation people if you're genuinely interested in that, but again it's kinda pointless now *shrugs*

Oh yes, I don't fault you for standing up for your alliance. Not at all. But you can't really fault us for standing up for ours either. If you found our demands to be outrageous and threatening, then you did the right thing. We found what was happening to be the same in our view, so yeah.

Edit: I think I'm inadvertently keeping this thread alive. My apologies. I'll stop posting now. If you want something from me specifically, feel free to PM me.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Jyrinx