Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[Xavii]

Not really surprised that cooler heads prevailed in this situation.

The mountain always looks smaller from far away.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Xavii

[hizzy]

The mountain always looks smaller from far away.

uh... ya... most things do...

[mrSonny]

I think that an alliance should not be able to be kept from attacking a member of theirs that goes rogue; didn't really think I'd get anywhere since everyone's mind is probably made up.

Princess no use, been trying to explain that for awhile now. STA somehow thinks they are 100% entitled to those slots. God forbid Kronos defend their name by attacking a rogue.

Wow, we are a picky bunch lately.

So suddenly, it's not ok for an ally to mediate? Since when? Sometimes it's just easier to have another party help, if the original parties are too frustrated with each other. Or various other reasons.

From my quick skim of the thread, STA had every reason to believe they were negotiating in good faith. It also appears TOP's action, while generous and I'd say generally a good idea, was a mistake, which they've claimed. I can believe an honest mistake, it happens to the best of us.

I also don't see why there's such argument over paying a token sum for the inconvenience to STA. 300 tech, in the larger scheme of things, is nothing.

Your right about the tech not being a big deal, I agree with you there. But, just because Hearcles was declared on b4 he went rogue has nothing to do with this at all. He said he was quiting, and naturally the members of Kronos wanted his land, tech and monies. Its a well known thing to do, attacking members that are quiting that is. Kronos could have or could not have known if he was gonna go rogue at that point. I know I sure didn't and we talked almost daily.

[Bob Janova]

It's not too often that you're wrong, but you are here. ... I think we both agree that expecting money or even being mad at an alliance for their help in defeating a rogue is wrong

So we agree on the entire content of my posts on this matter, and yet I'm wrong? Sure, every alliance wants to be able to fight off its own rogues, but there's a big difference between that and demanding a payoff for not being able to. Rogues' slots are often filled by raiders and never before has an alliance demanded payment for that.

No, what we did was put out a notice that aiding a rogue in his roguery will not be tolerated.

Aiding a rogue? The Kronos nations were dealing and taking full damage fighting the rogues.

The flaw in your analogy is that the rogue that IRON had issue with was not a former STA member, nor were the rogue's slots filled entirely by STA members. Nor did the STA arrange to re-fill the slots before the original war expired.

This issue was brought up again so I'll comment on it this time. The fact that it wasn't a former STA member is irrelevant, if your objection is the blocking of the war slots – IRON was still unable to counter-attack that rogue because of the actions of the STA (among others). The second point is more valid, but again, the material effect was to save you damage and demanding payment for that seems wrong.

[nutkase]

Glad that this is sorted.

Come on guys, this was blown out way of proportion by both sides. Take it on the chin and walk away, to continue on like this is torture for us looking from afar.

P.S Love ya Bob

Edited November 25, 2009 by nutkase

[Masterof9puppets]

Well, I would say that explanation is what caused doubt to be shed on what was really going on for STA. Nothing wrong with a quitting member letting people raid them for tech. I would say though it would have been nice to give STA at least one slot on Heracles, as it is very frustrating when an alliance member is being attacked and you can do nothing about. As well, I know that I personally would want to get in on the rogue just to have some fun.

I would have to agree with what Penguin said about letting the attacked alliance deal with the rogue.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that STA gave us permission to attack the rogues, as long as we dealt full damage. We followed through with our side of that bargain.

No one ever attempted to hold an alliance accountable for a rogue here, so we can all stop repeating it.

Actually, they should feel free to repeat as much as they want, as Tyga first blamed Kronos for the attacks. He blamed us for being behind them. Knowyourfacts.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Masterof9puppets

[Ivan Moldavi]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that STA gave us permission to attack the rogues, as long as we dealt full damage. We followed through with our side of that bargain.

Actually, they should feel free to repeat as much as they want, as Tyga first blamed Kronos for the attacks. He blamed us for being behind them. Knowyourfacts.

Actually, Mr. Facts, Tygaland accused Kronos of coordinating the filling of war slots for the rogue, not for the rogue action itself.

[nutkase]

Actually, Mr. Facts, Tygaland accused Kronos of coordinating the filling of war slots for the rogue, not for the rogue action itself.

Though he did want them to order the rogue to cease attacks.

Which is a bit weird considering they do not actually control that nation obviously.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Aiding a rogue? The Kronos nations were dealing and taking full damage fighting the rogues.

Don't think Heracles nuked any of the Kronos nations attacking him actually, so they clearly weren't taking full damage fighting him.

[nutkase]

Don't think Heracles nuked any of the Kronos nations attacking him actually, so they clearly weren't taking full damage fighting him.

Yes but thats a choice of Heracles not the Kronos nations attacking.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Yes but thats a choice of Heracles not the Kronos nations attacking.

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Twice.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Poyplemonkeys

[Auctor]

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Twice.

If he was really intent on getting Tyga, I think Hera would have known enough to save his nukes for his primary target.

Silly hypothetical argument is silly.

[nutkase]

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Twice.

Problem is that, you cannot be certain that this would of been the way it turned out.

IF STA did get the slots and attacked Heracles, you cannot be certain that he would nuke them rather then Tyga.

The only person that answer that question is Heracles, other then that STA can only go by a Hypothetical route.....too many "maybe's" and "what if".

Using that thought process, you can effectively have a CB on anyone.

[jerdge]

This issue fell too close to home with one of your allies being the one that I'm criticising? Being rogued on is unfortunate but it seems rather silly to me for an alliance to expect to be paid because it hasn't been able to take more nukes than it actually did, particularly given that in this instance Kronos anarchied another of their nations before he could attack STA nations and saved them hundreds of millions of dollars in damages by doing so.

Since STA and NpO don't make many bad decisions, I'm sure my comments will be more to your liking again in future

I use to look forward to your comments, and I'm not disappointed this time either.

I know too little about this stuff to actually have an opinion, but let it be said that - from the outside - it looks like several egos were too big for the people involved to actually listen to each other. In other words, nothing that new.

I do the same all the time...

Don't think Heracles nuked any of the Kronos nations attacking him actually, so they clearly weren't taking full damage fighting him.

Of course you will realize that in that way the rogue was going down quicker, won't you?

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Yes, the Kronos members limited the choices the rogue had, and they restricted the overall amount of nukes STA was going to eat (as Tyga could get only one per day, of course, and - arguably - more would have been spied away as he wouldn't have been using them; and he would have been anarchied all the time and he wouldn't have been able to redeclare; etc.)

(If I'm wrong on something, I apologize: I'm actually very bad at war.)

If at the STA they wanted to eat more nukes and now they can't, anyway, let me say that I am sympathetic with them!

[/pun]

[Edit:grammar, context, tenses...lol]

Edited November 25, 2009 by jerdge

[mrSonny]

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Twice.

Rapidly declining his nukes? I can assure you that Tyga would have taken the same amount of nukes. Its clear that his "beef" was with tyga. I think he had 12 left when he was deleted? Also all kronos members had every intention on getting nuked.

Edited November 25, 2009 by mrSonny

[Uhtred]

So we agree on the entire content of my posts on this matter, and yet I'm wrong? Sure, every alliance wants to be able to fight off its own rogues, but there's a big difference between that and demanding a payoff for not being able to. Rogues' slots are often filled by raiders and never before has an alliance demanded payment for that.

You cited an alliance which demands payment for that at the end of your own post. But in this case there was more to it than that, as you well know.

Aiding a rogue? The Kronos nations were dealing and taking full damage fighting the rogues.

We have evidence which suggests they weren't. Since producing that they have claimed Heracles rebought infra which does invalidate our stats to a certain extent but the claim cannot be proven either way regardless. At the very least only one of their nations nuked the rogue and only a single nuke was fired at them.

This issue was brought up again so I'll comment on it this time. The fact that it wasn't a former STA member is irrelevant, if your objection is the blocking of the war slots – IRON was still unable to counter-attack that rogue because of the actions of the STA (among others). The second point is more valid, but again, the material effect was to save you damage and demanding payment for that seems wrong.

Yet in that case the STA nation was ordered to offer peace (as is our policy when alliances object to our raids) but the rogue didn't accept the offer. We did all we could to allow IRON the only slot STA had. In the Kronos situation we asked for slots, Kronos said they'd try to get the wars peaced out (and as we knew this was dependent on the rogue accepting peace we gave them the benefit of the doubt) but then a few days later the wars were peaced out only to be instantly redeclared by Kronos nations.

One alliance in those two cases did all it could to free slots for the rogue's target alliance, the other did all it could to keep slots from the rogue's target alliance. They are entirely different outcomes.

As for your final point, whether or not it saved us material damage is irrelevant. Even if it was their intention to save damage to our nations (which it wasn't) it should be our decision whether or not to take that damage, not theirs.

[Uhtred]

If he was really intent on getting Tyga, I think Hera would have known enough to save his nukes for his primary target.

Silly hypothetical argument is silly.

Then the argument that Kronos saved the STA from further nuclear damage is invalidated. You can't have it both ways.

[nutkase]

Then the argument that Kronos saved the STA from further nuclear damage is invalidated. You can't have it both ways.

Well technically did any other STA nations get attacked with nuclear weapons?

Also, Auctor is only speculating, that is not a valid theory.

Edited November 25, 2009 by nutkase

[mrSonny]

Then the argument that Kronos saved the STA from further nuclear damage is invalidated. You can't have it both ways.

I think you are misunderstanding it. I might be wrong tho. Tyga would have been on his "nuke first" everday list. If other STA's were in his slot they would have been nuked also. The fact of the point is Tyga would have been nuked the same amount of times no matter what. 3 other members declearing on him would not have stopped him from nuking tyga everyday each moreing first. Then after that send a couple, or trying to with the sdi's in the way, to the other members of sta. Like I stated above I think he was deleted with 12 nukes?

[Wu Tang Clan]

If at the STA they wanted to eat more nukes and now they can't, anyway, let me say that I am sympathetic with them!

Off the mark sir. Their SDI's would have taken down a few, and he wouldn't have been able to focus his arsenal on one STA target (Tyga). They didn't want to eat more nukes (well maybe they did) they wanted to spread out the damage and make Herc fight a war on multiple fronts so he couldn't focus his arsenal, like Kronos allowed him to do.

So Tyga took a bigger blow then he should have if STA had taken all the slots. If they had, then multiple STA nations would have taken a small blow, making it easier to rebuild. But with aid slot restrictions and the likes, it's much harder to rebuild 1 nation that eats 6 nukes, then it is to rebuild 3 nations that eat 2 each. Make sense?

[nutkase]

Off the mark sir. Their SDI's would have taken down a few, and he wouldn't have been able to focus his arsenal on one STA target (Tyga). They didn't want to eat more nukes (well maybe they did) they wanted to spread out the damage and make Herc fight a war on multiple fronts so he couldn't focus his arsenal, like Kronos allowed him to do.

So Tyga took a bigger blow then he should have if STA had taken all the slots. If they had, then multiple STA nations would have taken a small blow, making it easier to rebuild. But with aid slot restrictions and the likes, it's much harder to rebuild 1 nation that eats 6 nukes, then it is to rebuild 3 nations that eat 2 each. Make sense?

Again, this is all hypothetical. He might of never launched his nukes at attacking STA nations and saved them for Tyga.

A lot of you people are missing the point here.

[mrSonny]

Off the mark sir. Their SDI's would have taken down a few, and he wouldn't have been able to focus his arsenal on one STA target (Tyga). They didn't want to eat more nukes (well maybe they did) they wanted to spread out the damage and make Herc fight a war on multiple fronts so he couldn't focus his arsenal, like Kronos allowed him to do.

So Tyga took a bigger blow then he should have if STA had taken all the slots. If they had, then multiple STA nations would have taken a small blow, making it easier to rebuild. But with aid slot restrictions and the likes, it's much harder to rebuild 1 nation that eats 6 nukes, then it is to rebuild 3 nations that eat 2 each. Make sense?

No it doesn't make sense. If he wanted to hurt sta that bad he would have declared on more. He clearly had his eyes out for tyga here. The same amount of damage could have been done to tyga. But as nutkase keeps explaing we are fighting over nothing. Its all hypothetical

[AirMe]

The Kronos nations attacked Heracles, presumably knowing he wouldn't nuke them, taking spots that STA members would have otherwise had. It's been said that Heracles would have nuked any STA members declaring war on him, so Kronos' declarations prevented STA members from rapidly declining his stock of nukes, and enabled him to aim every nuke he had at Tyga instead of spreading the damage wider and eating up more nukes with the multiple Strategic Defence Initiatives that would be in use.

Twice.

This is what I was going to say. To me when I saw the war screen i assume they had declared to prevent anyone from doing too much damage to Heracles so he could A) do more damage to Tyga and B) Attack other targets once he was done with Tyga....I know for a fact he spied on a large nation in an ally of mine which leads me to believe he had other large targets on his mind for week 2. So by using that logic, yeah, it is very reasonable for STA to assume that Kronos was slot filling.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Rapidly declining his nukes? I can assure you that Tyga would have taken the same amount of nukes. Its clear that his "beef" was with tyga. I think he had 12 left when he was deleted? Also all kronos members had every intention on getting nuked.

I should find the quote that gave me the impression that Heracles would certainly be nuking STA nations if they attacked him, but I don't really have the time right now. Citing his nukes remaining at the death of his nation is irrelevant to the discussion. Kronos didn't know his nation would disappear a week or so later when they took up the slots, so why should it be a valid defence for their actions? He certainly wouldn't have had so many nukes left when he deleted had people not been spying away his cruise missiles and had he had more SDIs to aim them at.

If all Kronos members had every intention of being nuked (really? Haven't seen that claimed anywhere before) why did they have no intentions of nuking. Did they still expect to be nuked when they cooperated with Heracles to peace out of all of the wars that they hadn't been nuked in and have him declared on again to fill every slot? Apart from DeCaelo of course who is crazy and has lame nukes anyway

Yes, the Kronos members limited the choices the rogue had, and they restricted the overall amount of nukes STA was going to eat (as Tyga could get only one per day, of course, and - arguably - more would have been spied away as he wouldn't have been using them; and he would have been anarchied all the time and he wouldn't have been able to redeclare; etc.)

(If I'm wrong on something, I apologize: I'm actually very bad at war.)

If at the STA they wanted to eat more nukes and now they can't, anyway, let me say that I am sympathetic with them!

[/pun]

When Kronos nations took those slots they weren't expecting his sudden disappearing act a week or so later, so as I said before I don't see it as a valid defence for what they did. The short length of the war made their actions partly inconsequential, more by dumb luck than their planning. The simple matter is if you have 4 SDIs to aim at per day, you'll use up more nukes quicker than if you're just aiming at the single SDI. Unless my maths is completely out of whack, a good possibility, the odds suggest you'd run out of a stockpile of 25 nukes pretty quickly, even buying two a day. You wouldn't be able to nuke everyone you planned to for 7 days straight.

[NoFish]

Off the mark sir. Their SDI's would have taken down a few, and he wouldn't have been able to focus his arsenal on one STA target (Tyga). They didn't want to eat more nukes (well maybe they did) they wanted to spread out the damage and make Herc fight a war on multiple fronts so he couldn't focus his arsenal, like Kronos allowed him to do.

So Tyga took a bigger blow then he should have if STA had taken all the slots. If they had, then multiple STA nations would have taken a small blow, making it easier to rebuild. But with aid slot restrictions and the likes, it's much harder to rebuild 1 nation that eats 6 nukes, then it is to rebuild 3 nations that eat 2 each. Make sense?

Then he could have, you know, just not nuked them if this is the case. I didn't know Heracles well, but he certainly seemed smart enough to, you know, do whichever was going to cause the most damage to people he didn't like. You speak as though he would have had to have nuked those nations if they declared on him, like it was some sort of Rogue's code that "Ye Must Nuke Every Nation Ye Be At War With Lest They Be From Yer Own Alliance."

Maybe the Kronos nations on him kept STA from receiving additional damage, I would certainly think so, but it's possible they didn't. However to imply that by not letting more STA nations get attacked the STA somehow took more damage is just absurd.