Tabloid Tribune #152 | Now Externally Focused!

[Azaghul]

Maybe they had to come in by treaty, but they were the ones who DOW'd.

"Starting in the war" because you're defending your allies and DoW to activate a treaty is semantics. NPO actually truly started the war.

[Weirdgus]

Didn't TDSM8 disband cause they couldn't be active enough to set up like 10 paid tech deals or something like that?

[Ellis]

"Starting in the war" because you're defending your allies and DoW to activate a treaty is semantics. NPO actually truly started the war.

Of course, I forgot that the whole war was a Pacifican plot. My mistake.

[TypoNinja]

I don't know about TDSM8, but Athens lost 14,000/16,000 tech, NPO lost 350,000/348,018 tech.

NPO lost $10,000,000,000 when Athens lost $0.

Athens' terms certainly weren't worse.

Are we really gonna derail this to a comparison of terms and monetary vs non monetary terms in terms of harshness? Hasn't that already been beaten to death it other threads previously?

Yes we are more gracious than NPO ever was in this position, how do we know for sure? Cause NPO set the bar DAMN low, we'd have to redeclare on them while they are disarmed and push for disbandment just to pull off a tie. The sad truth is that just being willing to work with them puts us way above the bar, thats how low it was set.

[Ellis]

Are we really gonna derail this to a comparison of terms and monetary vs non monetary terms in terms of harshness? Hasn't that already been beaten to death it other threads previously?

Would it have been better if I'd just said "No, you're wrong."?

[Doitzel]

Dad is the funniest guy around.

[Sir Paul]

I can't believe we're going down this path, but *deep breath*

Yes we are more gracious than NPO ever was in this position, how do we know for sure? Cause NPO set the bar DAMN low, we'd have to redeclare on them while they are disarmed and push for disbandment just to pull off a tie. The sad truth is that just being willing to work with them puts us way above the bar, thats how low it was set.

*shrugs* We're paying the most nominally, the most proportionally, the most tech from top nations, and we're not even halfway through the terms yet. Not complaining, just stating facts. Besides, who knows what you'll be capable of in six months? You wouldn't even have to redeclare... you could simply have someone else do it for some crime we committed years before. I'm going to reserve judgement on how gracious the lot of you are until my alliance is re-armed and protected.

They didn't start the war.

Yea, when you guys first badgered allies for not joining our side, and then exacted reparations from people who were treaty-bound to fight with us, that argument flew out the window. Either it's OK to take money from people defending their allies or it is not, and if I follow the example set by many prominent Karma alliances, the longer and harder you fight for your allies, the worse the terms are.

Now, to get back on subject and answer some viewer questions and misperceptions:

That would be the name of our Deputy Secretary of Defense accidentally being added to the list of rogues in the OP...

The handling of rogues was a side discussion, which has resulted in a productive solution as I noted above. Original malcontent was over the first issue.

There seems to be an epidemic where people forget what words mean. The term "rogue" applies to leaders that do actions counter to their alliance's wishes to the point where that member is expelled and all subsequent actions are disavowed (examples: That nuclear asshat Azaghul is rogue. Archon, who knew he would pull this, declared Azaghul a rogue so he does not have to take responsiblity for Azaghul's actions).

The list provided in this tabloid are leaders who have attacked the NPO with impunity.

Per the Viridian emissary's respectful private request to the Emperor of the Order, the list has been amended to make it clear that Arm_Red is not a rogue of the Viridian Entente.

$18m per war? You got off lightly, a war costs much, much more than that. I'd stop banging on that point if I were you, you're not looking good with it any more.

Oh, thank God... I was feeling bad about what I did to Archon for a while, but you have cleared my conscience. The NPO Reparation Efficiency Rating for our last tussle was about 3 million, and could come from any MK nation. It's good to know that we let them off easy.

Anyway, the subject of dividing up stuff has always been of interest to me, and I was thinking about a fair way to divide up reparations. The point of the list was to offer up a new way to divide up reparations in the future, and to see who would say "lol@sparta."

It's too bad that I banned raiding in Athens for a while. Such an warm invitation!

We'll still be under terms for many more months. I'm sure you'll have a policy in place that passes international muster by then.

If you want to fix that problem, trying to make propaganda hay out of it like in the OP is probably not the best way of going about bringing up your concerns.

Actually, I disagree. In the instance where you have bi-lateral issues, two alliances working in private is far better than the Open World Forum. However, you have to remember that there is no "Karma," there is "the loose coalition of independent alliances formerly known as Karma." One of the reasons the war took so long to end is because everyone on the Pacifican front had to agree to terms. Similarly, any Pacifican request can easily be ignored and chalked up to the bureaucratic weight of the group of 15. For example, no one got back to us on our Red Dawn application until I posted an add in PaulsLIST and a few key people noticed it and decided to give us an answer. That answer was "no, and we're not telling you why." (Of course, I don't even know if all 15 agreed to that, so going public is one way to let all parties know of the outcome)

We never would have gotten any answer without going public, and now the Order, the Red Team, and the world know that the group of 15 care more about being petty than creating a free Red (as stated in their instrument of surrender). This allows Red Dawn and the New Pacific Order to speak with a unified voice that if Red is to be free, it must be controlled by Red. Various parties that posted here seem to agree, and I hope that the Group of 15 reverses their position and allows the Red Team to move forward.

Going public also created new embassies, protocols, connections, understanding, and information sharing. The G15 has new tools to track raiders, [OOC: you have a new twitter-feed to subscribe to when you feel CN withdrawl], we have new people to contact regarding raiders, and all of you were subjected to my terrible singing.

I call that Public Channels FTW!

Dad is the funniest guy around.

And don't you forget it.

[Il Impero Romano]

Per the Viridian emissary's respectful private request to the Emperor of the Order, the list has been amended to make it clear that Arm_Red is not a rogue of the Viridian Entente.

Ok, this is what my post originally said:

Thank you good sir, Look forward to working with you all.

However, I go and actually look and see that you still have his name marked in red. I'm not sure what the difficulty is. We are trying to help you guys believe it or not and want to do the right thing here, yet you insult. Change the name out of red, and just delete it from the list because it shouldn't be on there...act like a man and not a child.

edit for drunkspelling

Edited November 26, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Sir Paul]

Ok, this is what my post originally said:

However, I go and actually look and see that you still have his name marked in red. I'm not sure what the difficulty is. We are trying to help you guys believe it or not and want to do the right thing here, yet you insult. Change the name out of red, and just delete it from the list because it shouldn't be on there...act like a man and not a child.

edit for drunkspelling

I know, Il Impero Romano, you're from the government and you're here to help, and if acting like a man means following your drunken direction, regardless of truth, then I'll gladly act as a child.

You keep insisting that Arm_Red does not belong on that list: I disagree. That list is not people who are rogues: That list is people who have attacked the New Pacific Order with impunity (ie: you didn't attack them when they attacked us). He attacked an NPO nation with impunity. And oddly enough, it was under your helpful direct orders (<~Impero[VE]> kill this) even though you had moved to a different position which lead to the helpful new policy of hitting first and explaining never. Anyway, he may have had what you consider cause, but it is still a raid on the New Pacific Order, so for those of you keeping score, 99 independent raids and 1 Impero-sanctioned raid, of which less than 20 were defended.

Now, your emissary went to my boss, Emperor Blackbird, and insisted that the list be modified to reflect the fact that Arm_Red is not a rogue of the Viridian Entente. I never implied such a thing, but Imperial Order C_2009_MA_4 directed me to edit the list to reflect the fact that Arm_Red is "Not a Rogue of the Viridian Entente." It should be noted that except for spelling and grammar errors, my edits for my articles are in color, with the date of the edits noted at the bottom of the article. Red is usually the first edit, blue the second, and so on. So, I added an asterisk next to Arm_Red's name and at the bottom of the list noted that the asterisk means "Not a Rogue of the Viridian Entente."

Check it out:

If you have further questions regarding the policies of the Tabloid Tribune and other PNN productions, feel free to send me a private message.

[Bob Janova]

Putting people who attacked NPO nations as part of enforcing your terms on a list that you claim to be of unwarranted raids is unfair and deceptive. I believe that's the point.

[Weirdgus]

I just love Sir Paul and his resolve in clarifying that Arm_Red most certainly not a rogue )

Thank you for making my day wonderful

[Ragashingo]

Yea, when you guys first badgered allies for not joining our side, and then exacted reparations from people who were treaty-bound to fight with us, that argument flew out the window. Either it's OK to take money from people defending their allies or it is not, and if I follow the example set by many prominent Karma alliances, the longer and harder you fight for your allies, the worse the terms are.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's wrong with that? They continued to fight so the terms were slowly made more harsh to try and persuade them to surrender. 

Also, Sir Paul, please tell me you're not one of those that supports the silly notion that defending an ally automatically makes everything ok. In my mind getting pulled into an undesired war due to the actions of your ally (especially when they are the type of actions your ally is well known for) just makes you look stupid for not managing your treaties more carefully.

As for the red dawn stuff. Those alliances should have talked among themselves and come back to y'all with a unified answer. Things like "you can't join because we don't want you to gain any influence" or "because we can't decide among ourselves" or even simply "becasue we won and we own you " would be better that the non answers you say you were given.  

[Gecko]

Schattenmann is founder of this "This Week in Pacifica," the Cult of Justicia, and is a former member of the Vox Populi. He is disappointed that although Red is suposed to be free, Aqua, Black, Green and others have say over how Red is run.

You spelt Justitia wrong.

[TypoNinja]

Edit: thats what I get for working off a quote.

Edited November 27, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Starcraftmazter]

I lol'd.

Consequently, this is the first thing in this particular publication that I have actually liked.

[Mussolandia]

I'm sure they were just desperate for your approval.

[Solaris]

I'm sure they were just desperate for your approval.

Here on Planet Bob, appreciating something doesn't usually imply the train of thought you described.

[Angrator]

Still wanna complain about it? Pay off your reps already.

[Bilrow]

Still wanna complain about it? Pay off your reps already.

Wow, why didn't we think of that. We'll get right on it.

[Bob Janova]

Sometimes it takes the wisdom of the random forum poster to alert us to that brilliant idea which we all missed.

[Azaghul]

Didn't TDSM8 disband cause they couldn't be active enough to set up like 10 paid tech deals or something like that?

Months of being decommissioned under terms while NPO wouldn't get them targets despite asking for them.

*shrugs* We're paying the most nominally, the most proportionally, the most tech from top nations, and we're not even halfway through the terms yet. Not complaining, just stating facts. Besides, who knows what you'll be capable of in six months? You wouldn't even have to redeclare... you could simply have someone else do it for some crime we committed years before. I'm going to reserve judgement on how gracious the lot of you are until my alliance is re-armed and protected.

And you get to keep all your wonders, keep your leadership, keep your internal affairs your own, don't have to disband, etc.

Yea, when you guys first badgered allies for not joining our side, and then exacted reparations from people who were treaty-bound to fight with us, that argument flew out the window. Either it's OK to take money from people defending their allies or it is not, and if I follow the example set by many prominent Karma alliances, the longer and harder you fight for your allies, the worse the terms are.

See above, and none of your allies faced crippling reparations. Also joining an ally in a MADP attack is different from defending an ally via MDP. There are consequences to having MADPs.

Now, to get back on subject and answer some viewer questions and misperceptions:

There seems to be an epidemic where people forget what words mean. The term "rogue" applies to leaders that do actions counter to their alliance's wishes to the point where that member is expelled and all subsequent actions are disavowed (examples: That nuclear asshat Azaghul is rogue. Archon, who knew he would pull this, declared Azaghul a rogue so he does not have to take responsiblity for Azaghul's actions).

The list provided in this tabloid are leaders who have attacked the NPO with impunity.

Per the Viridian emissary's respectful private request to the Emperor of the Order, the list has been amended to make it clear that Arm_Red is not a rogue of the Viridian Entente.

More interested in taking pot shots than getting anything done I see.

Actually, I disagree. In the instance where you have bi-lateral issues, two alliances working in private is far better than the Open World Forum. However, you have to remember that there is no "Karma," there is "the loose coalition of independent alliances formerly known as Karma." One of the reasons the war took so long to end is because everyone on the Pacifican front had to agree to terms. Similarly, any Pacifican request can easily be ignored and chalked up to the bureaucratic weight of the group of 15. For example, no one got back to us on our Red Dawn application until I posted an add in PaulsLIST and a few key people noticed it and decided to give us an answer. That answer was "no, and we're not telling you why." (Of course, I don't even know if all 15 agreed to that, so going public is one way to let all parties know of the outcome)

We never would have gotten any answer without going public, and now the Order, the Red Team, and the world know that the group of 15 care more about being petty than creating a free Red (as stated in their instrument of surrender). This allows Red Dawn and the New Pacific Order to speak with a unified voice that if Red is to be free, it must be controlled by Red. Various parties that posted here seem to agree, and I hope that the Group of 15 reverses their position and allows the Red Team to move forward.

Going public also created new embassies, protocols, connections, understanding, and information sharing. The G15 has new tools to track raiders, [OOC: you have a new twitter-feed to subscribe to when you feel CN withdrawl], we have new people to contact regarding raiders, and all of you were subjected to my terrible singing.

I call that Public Channels FTW!

Or maybe, if you had made a serious effort at getting an answer and to talk to the alliances in question, rather than this propaganda circus, you'd have gotten one that was favorable to you.

Personally I think it's fitting that they denied your entry, with the attitude you have about the whole thing you deserve it. Petty? Sure. But no more petty than you are being, or that you deserve. What's gonna be even funnier is in a few months when NPO comes out of terms, and you try to re-establish yourself in the treaty web claiming you've "changed", and then you probably won't be able to figure out why few people believe you, and why most are still hostile to you. I won't be around for it, but hopefully one of my former compatriots will tell me about it.

What you apparently haven't figured out yet is that when you're under terms, it's your job to be respectful to those whose terms you are under. If you have to act, act. MK pulled off the act quite well, even with the large amount of asshattery (with terms length) and slowness (on getting reps targets) we had to put up with. Even when it's frustrating, and believe me it was getting reps targets (I queried 3 people daily starting a week in advance and still wouldn't get targets on time), we still kept it to private channels (except for one post of mine on the CN forums about the term extension asshattery). Hell we kept up the act even after terms ended and it worked out quite well for us (and badly for you).

As long as propaganda and pettiness matters more than getting a good response from your captors, propaganda and complaining is all you're going to have.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Azaghul

[Heft]

What you apparently haven't figured out yet is that when you're under terms, it's your job to be respectful to those whose terms you are under.

Since when?

[Azaghul]

Since when?

Well they don't have to, but if they are smart they will.

[Heft]

Well they don't have to, but if they are smart they will.

They seem to be handling themselves just fine as it is.

[Lord of Destruction]

They seem to be handling themselves just fine as it is.

"Handling themselves just fine" to me would be improving the worlds view of them while under terms - which isn't happening, really.