An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Homura]

I thank you for entirely ignoring the vast majority of what I said. You know... the relevant part to the discussion.

No, you ran in here assuming I hadn't read any of the statements. I have no interest in holding an argument with you defending something I don't believe. I never said that MK didn't think the mega raid was stupid and could honestly care less whether you do or not. What I did say is that you're protecting them from any potential outside consequences.

[Corinan]

So had Athens posted an actual DoW, you would be fine?

I would be, personally.

[Neo Uruk]

We've been through this before. As Arctic Penguin dug up in the other thread they had an ambassador active on the Knight's forums only three hours before the attack. It's sort of hard to say Athens couldn't have found out if they were being careful.

Turns out KoN didn't make the embassy open for public viewing.

[Aurion]

I did not want to get involved in this discussion, but did you somehow miss the point that Athens promised to meet the KoN goverment to discuss Amends (as in reparations of some kind i would assume)?

Tbh i don't care for tech raiding at all (have never done so, and most likely never will) but this entire mess is widely out of proportion.

Did Athens mess up and should they pay reps? Yes obviously.

Is this a reason to start a war? Honestly, if they are willing to make amends now then no, i see no reason to go to war. A similar offer was made to the NPO if you remember with somewhat mixed results (as in, negotiations stopped since they were fleeing into Peace Mode instead of negotiating in good faith).

$%&@ed up, not messed up, Tula.

It needs that certain edge to detail just how utterly stupid that was.

That said, anyone shocked or surprised or outraged by this - that MK is standing by their allies in the face of threats needs to get their head examined. Of all the things that shoulda been obvious a million miles away...

Edited November 15, 2009 by Aurion

[Heft]

So had Athens posted an actual DoW, you would be fine?

Sure. It still would've been stupid, probably, but not as bad as hiding behind "tech raid!"

[Watson895]

Outstanding. I didn't think anything could give me more respect for MK, and then this happens.

[Rebel Virginia]

It was long after you ever said anything about how everything would be more of the same. When it was advantageous to you, you seemed to love to congratulate and cheer on alliances moving towards the Karma movement.

No, I started in the middle of the Karma War once I realized none of you were fighting a war on principles. You let Valhalla off clean while alliances such as TSI had to pay reparations. That is when you made an enemy of Rebel Virginia.

[delendum]

So sending PMs to a neutral alliance is just as bad as attacking one? Really? I know you can't really believe that.

Declaring war on an alliance and tech raiding it are the same thing? Regardless, my argument was not about who made a bigger mess, it was about the level of "remorse" Athens showed, with which apparently Heft had a problem, when his own alliance showed none whatsoever after that little blunder.

That was at the end of the GPA apology.

Recruiting from neutrals was never a sustainable strategy for actually gaining members, and never would have been.

The difference, as I said the last time this came up, is that we were right and Athens is not, as evidenced by all the polls since then showing that most people recognize our actions never infringed anyone's sovereignty. Sending messages to nations is entirely different than sending soldiers to nations. When we declare war, we actually declare war.

Only Athens didn't declare war, they decided to raid them. It makes a difference if you keep in mind that the point of declaring war on somebody is to burn them to the ground, while a tech raid is a tech raid, regardless of the number of nations involved. Again, it was dumb as $%&@ of them to do it, but it's a different soup. Your actions, while obviously not the same in practice, were based on the same principle: they're not allied to anybody, so what harm could it bring?

[LegendoftheSkies]

We've been through this before. As Arctic Penguin dug up in the other thread they had an ambassador active on the Knight's forums only three hours before the attack. It's sort of hard to say Athens couldn't have found out if they were being careful.

angryraccoon claims that the treaty was not posted in the public Ni! boards. It was only in the MASH embassy which he probably didn't have access to.

<&angryraccoon> The treaty was not listed on the Ni! boards in public

<&angryraccoon> it was kept in the MASH embassy and never posted on OWF

<Legendoftheskies[Corp]> if your ally doesn't know they're your allies, you have a serious problem

<Legendoftheskies[Corp]> hopefully this was actually a wakeup call for Ni

<&angryraccoon> the only guy in MASH who finally remembered today was not even masked on the NI boards

<Legendoftheskies[Corp]> lol

<%Boogeyman657> lol

Edited November 15, 2009 by Legend of the Skies

[Duncan King]

I didn't expect anything less from MK, Archon, and anyone who did was fooling themselves. MK are steadfast allies through thick and thin. It's unfortunate that Athens decided to drag your name through the mud as well.

Again, this is why everyone hated The Initiative. You know, protecting idiots like Golden Sabres and GOONS who made their certain brand of atrocious behaviour the accepted paradigm. But nobody remembers that !@#$ anyway.

Oh, I remember that. It's that kind of behavior that led me to hook up with NATO.

[Monster]

No, I started in the middle of the Karma War once I realized none of you were fighting a war on principles. You let Valhalla off clean while alliances such as TSI had to pay reparations. That is when you made an enemy of Rebel Virginia.

There was no central organizing body for terms. Of course there would be inconsistency. I tried my best to help TSI in addition to that.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Antoine Roquentin

[Heft]

Declaring war on an alliance and tech raiding it are the same thing? Regardless, my argument was not about who made a bigger mess, it was about the level of "remorse" Athens showed, with which apparently Heft had a problem, when his own alliance showed none whatsoever after that little blunder.

Only Athens didn't declare war, they decided to raid them. It makes a difference if you keep in mind that the point of declaring war on somebody is to burn them to the ground, while a tech raid is a tech raid, regardless of the number of nations involved. Again, it was dumb as $%&@ of them to do it, but it's a different soup. Your actions, while obviously not the same in practice, were based on the same principle: they're not allied to anybody, so what harm could it bring?

There's a lot going on here, so let's not waste any time.

My problem was not with how much "remorse" Athens is showing, but that they seem to be using insincere remorse to deflect anger. Which isn't really that much of a problem, honestly, just needed to be pointed out.

We never expressed any regret about sending messages. Their lack of treaties was not why they received messages. It also wasn't much of a blunder, and we came out of it perfectly fine.

Finally, a war is a war is a war.

[Rebel Virginia]

There was no central organizing body for terms. Of course there would be inconsistency. I tried my best to help TSI in addition to that.

I could care less. You're all guilty in my eyes.

[Vilien]

I could care less. You're all guilty in my eyes.

Sometimes I wonder if you're parodying us or just yourself.

[Sandwich Controversy]

It's becoming clearer than ever that everyone outside of MK is missing half of their brain.

[Aurion]

Sometimes I wonder if you're parodying us or just yourself.

I'd say parodying himself, and that self is parodying us.

[Tygaland]

It's becoming clearer than ever that everyone outside of MK is missing half of their brain.

Nuh uh, I found half a brain! Take that wiseguy!

[SirWilliam]

I'd say parodying himself, and that self is parodying us.

Yeah, I IRLol

[astronaut jones]

Was it really necessary to flex and front like you're all hard? Is this you mean mugging for everyone? Grrrr? Is that you?

[delendum]

There's a lot going on here, so let's not waste any time.

My problem was not with how much "remorse" Athens is showing, but that they seem to be using insincere remorse to deflect anger. Which isn't really that much of a problem, honestly, just needed to be pointed out.

We never expressed any regret about sending messages. Their lack of treaties was not why they received messages. It also wasn't much of a blunder, and we came out of it perfectly fine.

Finally, a war is a war is a war.

Please don't feed me that "neutrals are of no use" philosophy, when it came down to it, the main argument in favor of that kind of recruitment was their lack of treaties. The only reason you came out perfectly fine was because your allies stood by you. Had they abandoned you there after Bob started screaming "that's not moral!", I highly doubt you'd still be alive today. That's exactly what we're doing - not ditching our allies to the people who would like to use this as an excuse to burn them.

If they're so identical, I suggest future wars be based on ground attacks only. We should also all cancel our treaties and only join based on our vision of morality, but that's another story.

[ChairmanHal]

It's becoming clearer than ever that everyone outside of MK is missing half of their brain.

You're having a tough night, eh?

[Sandwich Controversy]

^

[ooc]I just got in 10 minutes ago [/ooc]

Nuh uh, I found half a brain! Take that wiseguy!

Excellent work, Tyga. Now return that to its proper owner, and then that person will join MK.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[2burnt2eat]

Please don't feed me that "neutrals are of no use" philosophy, when it came down to it, the main argument in favor of that kind of recruitment was their lack of treaties. The only reason you came out perfectly fine was because your allies stood by you. Had they abandoned you there after Bob started screaming "that's not moral!", I highly doubt you'd still be alive today. That's exactly what we're doing - not ditching our allies to the people who would like to use this as an excuse to burn them.

If they're so identical, I suggest future wars be based on ground attacks only. We should also all cancel our treaties and only join based on our vision of morality, but that's another story.

If you really want a comparison, it'd have to be more along the lines of NSO posturing about not recruiting from other alliances, and then doing it.

But with Athens on the other hand...!

[Tequila Mockingbird]

Although the actions of Athens over the last day or so have been absolutely deplorable, we don't abandon our allies for the sake of a little PR.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Tequila Mockingbird

[Kzoppistan]

Nuh uh, I found half a brain! Take that wiseguy!

Give that back! I might of needed to use that some day!

*edit:

Shakes fist at Sandwich Controversy! That guy is quick!

Edited November 15, 2009 by Kzoppistan