Rating alliances

[Londo Mollari]

On Planet Bob a qualified military commander with sufficient time on his hands on a consistent basis and a few able assistants doesn't put together a target list until the last possible moment--this to allow for "NS drift" of attacking nations and targets. Even allowing time to divide up targets between alliances (who would be going in against NPO having already been set in advance) and then assign them down, 24 hours is more than adequate against 900 nations. Truth be told you have a nice little javascripty thing all set up to do the work for you in under an hour, but I digress.

To make my point clearer, it was not known which alliances would hit the NPO until just a few hours/a day before it went down. Alliances continued to be added and subtracted right up to the last minute. When I am saying that coordination was thrown together at the last minute, I mean that there was no overarching plot of carefully laid treaty chainings where X,Y,Z would hit the NPO. Autoassigning targets from an excel dump is something I'd not thought of before but it seems simple enough, we will be sure to add this to our development list. But no, it was all decided at the last minute, who would hit and who would wait to counter the counters. That was my point. You would expect a far ranging conspiracy to have such details planned out well in advance. They weren't. There was just a general sense that we would defend our friends from the coming NPO aggression. Because the treaty web means that everyone who has friends is connected to a lot of other people, you wind up with a force like Karma. (or Hegemony for that matter)

[Bob Janova]

Sorry Impero, you should know me well enough by now to know that walls of text and pointing out the truth are too important to me to pass up

[Haflinger]

I just don't want anyone getting the wrong ideas - if NPO had never ever come for us then we'd be all fine and dandy, it wasn't some plan to kill NPO off, just to defend ourselves. That's all I'm sayin'.

So you would never, ever have launched a war, if NPO had never attacked anyone in Karma?

Keep in mind that by attacking anyone else besides NPO, you would have been weakening yourselves relative to their position.

Your claim here is tantamount to "We would have been fine with there never being a large-scale war ever again on Planet Bob if only they hadn't attacked us."

Let's just say that I find it funny how people not involved in Karma, Hegemony folks even, talk about how Karma was planning this back in January...

Are you going to suggest that the Emperor of the New Polar Order doesn't have sources?

Now this is beginning to come into the realms of what actually happened. As I've said many times, the first time a large subset of Karma came together and started to seriously discuss defensive plans was when it looked like VE might be attacked in late March, just after cancelling their treaties with the Hegemony.

There were never any plans to attack VE. IRON cancelled their treaty with VE because it looked like they were going to attack the International and fight ODN, and then VE cancelled on NPO because NPO supporting IRON in the same incident.

We joined Continuum because we were persuaded by some of our close allies that it was to be a new type of bloc, that it wouldn't be 'WUT 2.0' or aggressive. Of course, we can see now looking back that it was WUT 2.0 and it did several aggressive actions, which we were unhappy with right from the start (VietFAN 2 and GPA in particular).

GPA was a Continuum war, but FAN-1V wasn't. MHA, TPF, and Valhalla were Continuum alliances who supported 1V in it; TORN supported 1V as well.

[Heft]

Well it is true that the world hasn't changed, just the distribution of power. The same attitudes and viewpoints that led to all those former abuses are still prevalent in many leaderships, most of them just lack the ability (for now) to go to such extremes. The hyperbolic vilification of the NPO and Continuum and that entire group has led too many people to believe that the excesses of power are limited only to those "others" and they they could never possibly engage in such behavior. As for the planning talk, I'll just leave that alone.

[Drostan]

stuff.

Someone has to be the puppet master if it's a conspiracy. That's just how it works. Especially if you believe NPO was baited into attacking. You can't have a conspiracy without conspirators and so I am genuinely interested to whom you would give the credit. And try not to be too general. Be particular if you can.

Citadel has a lot of power simply because it is very hard to even attack many of their upper tiers. It is interesting that you think Citadel is behind the curve. It almost sounds like you're implying that there are forces moving against them. Are you part of some sort of anti-Citadel conspiracy? Citadel would be hard to get at no matter who banded together. Do I think it can be done? Yes. Do I think it is likely any time soon? No. The treaty web remains far too cluttered and there are too many ties to the 'other side'. I don't think Citadel is the new bad. But I do think there is significant resentment against them out there and I am sure they will be working on that. The fact of the matter is that not everyone is in it just for power. Community and friendship are not just euphemisms used to ensnare more power.

It is interesting how stark the contrast is between you and your alliance mate's views on the world. He doesn't seem to think anything has changed at all and that some Karma-based entity is now using the same means of staying in power that the Hegemony did. Any idea why he might think that? It's just interesting because you seem to think we're in a Mexican stand-off of power. I ask this question in sincerity because I wish to know what entity he is describing. I could also do with more clarification about how Citadel is 'behind the curve'.

[Heft]

It is interesting how stark the contrast is between you and your alliance mate's views on the world. He doesn't seem to think anything has changed at all and that some Karma-based entity is now using the same means of staying in power that the Hegemony did. Any idea why he might think that? It's just interesting because you seem to think we're in a Mexican stand-off of power. I ask this question in sincerity because I wish to know what entity he is describing. I could also do with more clarification about how Citadel is 'behind the curve'.

Rab never stated that a Karma entity is in power, you're just saying he did to ignore what he actually said.

[Bob Janova]

There were never any plans to attack VE.

Yeah, we worked that out fairly quickly, which is why the state of alert at that time didn't last long. For a day or two it looked like there might be and that's why there was a crisis meeting and the beginnings of defensive plans. That rumour was on the same level as the one immediately pre-Karma about a hit on PC.

Edit: The redistribution of power is a change. The fact that those who would wish to commit the same type of action as that of the Hegemony cannot currently do so is a big change, and a good one. Of course there are still people who would happily go there (though they're mostly in ex-Hegemony alliances, there are a few in ex-Karma), and there always will be, but when they don't dominate or exist within a dominant structure, they can't do any serious damage.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Drostan]

Rab never stated that a Karma entity is in power, you're just saying he did to ignore what he actually said.

Many of which went on to become a part of Karma who turned around and used the exact same tactics used by Continuum to maintain power. Take a look around things haven't changed much we still have the same bullying tactics (See stickmen, Purple incident).

I appreciate that you feel obligated to defend the less sane and reasonable opinions on this matter, but honestly, I beg your pardon. I sincerely would like to understand how many who became part of Karma went on to use the same tactics as the Continuum to maintain their power. Does that not imply that there remains some particular pole of power that is using said tactics to this day? His only specific mention is of stickmen, but the idea that they could stand in for the Continuum is laughably absurd, no?

If you think you can translate from that into sane-speak, I would be glad to listen to it.

EDIT: Also, see Bob's post above for my thoughts your opinion that only power dynamics have changed as if that weren't considerable.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Drostan

[Il Impero Romano]

There were never any plans to attack VE. IRON cancelled their treaty with VE because it looked like they were going to attack the International and fight ODN, and then VE cancelled on NPO because NPO supporting IRON in the same incident.

The events of that incident itself ended up being of little importance, fact of the matter is that IRON's actions and attitude were akin to handing us a bullet point list of exactly how war was going to unfold and where people would fall. They displayed an extremely agressive attitude in sticking their nose where it did not belong, not in a helpful manner but solely for the purpose of antagonizing their MADP partner. Then, to put the icing on the cake, they invited the Grand Bovine himself along with bigwoody into the negotiation room (without any of the 3 parties letting us, their mutual ally, know), who proceeded to tell everyone what they were and were not going to do lol Honestly, they only thing IRON and friends accomplished there was a world wide broadcast of their future intentions and prove themselves to be a massive, massive joke.

From that point on, the express intent of those on the other side were crystal clear, and it was safe to assume what type of incident would play out and when. No one needed to do any combined planning, they did all the fact finding for us.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[HellAngel]

Even Continuum were aware of what was going on, it was apparent to all those with any form of intelligence on the matter that a substantial threat was forming. Leaders of Q sat many a times in calls discussing possible sides. It was unilaterally decided around February-March that starting an aggressive war at this time would be a bad move. As continuum began to fall a part it became clear that the likes of FOK, Gremlins, Sparta and potentially TOP would be on the other side. We had hoped TOP would side with Q it didn't pan out this way largely due to poor communication in Q and the growing success of Vox on the OWF.

With retrospect it seems apparent than Gremlins membership in Q was to eliminate any possible threat from Polar, once they had done this they withdrew. Whether or not they set the ball rolling in eliminating what was now the major opposition (Continuum) I have no idea, but it certainly would seem like they had the motivation to do so and possibly the means. If you tie this in with the moralist front first put forward by the Gremlins codex it certainly seems to be a plausible theory. The morale values used by Gremlins undermined the actions of Q against previous alliances but why would they care? They had used the block for what they needed and had now left. Vox later exploited the apparent lack of morality or care for anyone else shown by Q in a relentless propaganda campaign, particularly against NPO.

I'd also speculate about Sparta's role in the Karma war, they were never really all that involved in Continuum action however they had strong ties to SF. I remember the constant "do disrespect our allies" moan whenever someone mentioned a dislike of GOD in particular. I half suspect that they were the probable leak in Q.

Of course this a vastly simplified version of events but it is a plausible theory if you look back at what actually happened. I suspect Gremlins indirectly pushed the agenda with Sparta providing the means for Vox to rally anti Q support. In that regards Karma was most likely a loose defined body of alliances who had a common dislike of a particular group. You had the mob all you needed was the spark to start the riot. NPO attacking OV gave that spark.

Why on earth NPO attacked OV I have no idea, it made little strategic sense and went against everything that had been previously discussed but as has been said by IRON officials in the past in the 24 hours in the build up to the war NPO communication was a complete blackout. We had intel from TORN but it wasn't very accurate as we would later discover.

It apparently doesnt appear to you that we left the bloc because you treated us like a second rate alliance, always casting aside our opinions and ridiculing us for it, does it? It's not like we warned the One Vision crowd every time they stomped a new alliance that they are creating their own downfall. But what do we know anyway?

It's also sad to see IRON talking smack about Gremlins when we saved your @#$% in the peace negotiations. I guess attention spans are short nowadays.

For the love of amicable conversation, stop talking about things you know nothing about. If there was a secret plan in Gremlins to bring down Continuum, i would have known about it. We simply choose to stand with friends who valued our opinions rather than the people who never gave jack about them when it came to the Karma War.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Since no one wants to see a good debate closed prematurely I will add commentary to my ratings to keep the discussion somewhat on-topic.

TOP 6 - I like most of the leadership, I haven't really talked to them very much though.

MHA 6 - I am a Douglas Adams fan so I can't really hate these guys even if they hate me.

Sparta 3 - When NSO first started out I would have probably ranked these guys higher, but since they have claimed part of the throne I have been unimpressed overall.

NpO 10 - Polar is Polar. One of the most consistent communities in the Cyberverse. It is the perfect model of Order.

IRON 7 - I like these guys. I am not a fan of democracies in general because I believe their processes to be slow but IRON has always been consistently honest and trustworthy to me.

ODN 6 - I still remember you guys signing a personal oath to never attack me, which you broke. Fun times.

FARK 5 - I haven't really had anything to do with these guys since my Farker days back in 2003. They seem to hate NSO but meh.

GPA 4 - Peace is a lie.

NPO 8 - Would be a 10 if they still held their Imperator Emeritus in high esteem.

FOK 5 - I laughed.

MK 7 - Seemed cool at first but have been a bit sour lately. Went to war with them without a treaty but get no respect. It happens.

WTF 5 - WTF?

TOOL 5 - Never talked to them.

TDO 5 - Same.

VE 7 - These guys are cool.

Legion 3 - You should have honored the Imperial Accords.

RoK 5 - I rated this as no interaction at the start of the thread but would definitely drop it down to a 3 if doing the ratings today.

GATO 8 - Better neighbors than I expected. Goes to show what a little communication can do.

CSN 5 - Yeah.

Athens 4 - Londo can be cool when he wants to be but most of the time they are looking for ways to troll NSO so meh.

Gremlins 6 - Always liked them.

MCXA 5 - Still have no idea what these guys stand for. Not a big deal, just no interaction.

UPN 5 - No idea.

RIA 4 - They just seem annoying.

STA 10 - You can't ask for better allies. Even when they disagree with you they stand by their word and honor.

Invicta 7 - I personally like Invicta. I know a lot of my people don't for whatever reason but whatever.

RnR 6 - Seems like a cool bunch.

MASH 5 - No idea.

NADC 5 - Same.

WAPA 5 - Again.

NV 5 - These guys have a few good OWF posters. Other than that I don't know much about them.

NSO 10 - We are the best.

NEW 5 - No idea.

MA 5 - No idea.

Umbrella 5 - Gave them a 5 at the beginning then read a few posts from one of their "leaders" - probably would give them a 2 for letting a !@#$%-bag lead them.

FAN 8 - mpol is the best. Never really disagreed with FAN. Wars are sometimes fought for necessity.

LoSS 6 - Seem okay. Surprised they haven't done more considering their age. I might have stunted their growth during the Red Senate crisis a few years back.

TSO 2 - Seems like a real dickhead alliance.

NATO 5 - I have some people from NATO in NSO that speak highly of it but I have never talked to them.

Nordreich 6 - Anything supporting those of us genetically superior to the rest gets a positive vote from me.

GR 5 - No real communication with them.

Vanguard 5 - Same.

GOD 5 - Who?

FoB 5 - Same.

PC 1 - These guys suck. There is no other way to say it. They come out of nowhere and go out of their way to troll NSO and have been in several logs trying to get us rolled. Get over it.

Valhalla 5 - Seem okay but not very friendly.

GGA 5 - I have never had a problem with GGA personally. Not talked to them since my return though.

TPF 7 - A good solid alliance. I like them.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[Goldie]

It's also sad to see IRON talking smack about Gremlins when we saved your @#$% in the peace negotiations. I guess attention spans are short nowadays.

after how they spit in the face of Fark in the thread announcing the conclusion of their VERY light reparations and surrender terms, what more would you expect?

[Heft]

Edit: The redistribution of power is a change. The fact that those who would wish to commit the same type of action as that of the Hegemony cannot currently do so is a big change, and a good one. Of course there are still people who would happily go there (though they're mostly in ex-Hegemony alliances, there are a few in ex-Karma), and there always will be, but when they don't dominate or exist within a dominant structure, they can't do any serious damage.

There are plenty of them in ex-Karma, and in fact no significant difference anymore between those two groups (not to mention the ex-Hegemony/ex-Karma labels by now are only useful for Othering purposes and otherwise entirely meaningless). And yes, they can do serious damage.

I appreciate that you feel obligated to defend the less sane and reasonable opinions on this matter, but honestly, I beg your pardon. I sincerely would like to understand how many who became part of Karma went on to use the same tactics as the Continuum to maintain their power. Does that not imply that there remains some particular pole of power that is using said tactics to this day? His only specific mention is of stickmen, but the idea that they could stand in for the Continuum is laughably absurd, no?

If you think you can translate from that into sane-speak, I would be glad to listen to it.

EDIT: Also, see Bob's post above for my thoughts your opinion that only power dynamics have changed as if that weren't considerable.

I thought it was actually one of the more clear parts of what he's been saying. He never said anyone is a stand-in for Continuum, or that there is a comparable power structure. He just said that the tactics being employed by people today (with Stickmen being a pretty good and obvious example) are no different than tactics employed by Continuum powers (or the pre-Continuum powers, for that matter).

There is no particular pole using those tactics, but all poles using them to some degree.

[Drostan]

There are plenty of them in ex-Karma, and in fact no significant difference anymore between those two groups (not to mention the ex-Hegemony/ex-Karma labels by now are only useful for Othering purposes and otherwise entirely meaningless). And yes, they can do serious damage.

I thought it was actually one of the more clear parts of what he's been saying. He never said anyone is a stand-in for Continuum, or that there is a comparable power structure. He just said that the tactics being employed by people today (with Stickmen being a pretty good and obvious example) are no different than tactics employed by Continuum powers (or the pre-Continuum powers, for that matter).

There is no particular pole using those tactics, but all poles using them to some degree.

You'll forgive me if I fail to see how that is not significantly different than one group using them and everyone else merely absorbing them.

I agree though that the 'Othering' labels are annoying and usually are used to side-track debates.

[Rayvon]

Since no one wants to see a good debate closed prematurely I will add commentary to my ratings to keep the discussion somewhat on-topic.

TOP 6 - I like most of the leadership, I haven't really talked to them very much though.

MHA 6 - I am a Douglas Adams fan so I can't really hate these guys even if they hate me.

Sparta 3 - When NSO first started out I would have probably ranked these guys higher, but since they have claimed part of the throne I have been unimpressed overall.

NpO 10 - Polar is Polar. One of the most consistent communities in the Cyberverse. It is the perfect model of Order.

IRON 7 - I like these guys. I am not a fan of democracies in general because I believe their processes to be slow but IRON has always been consistently honest and trustworthy to me.

ODN 6 - I still remember you guys signing a personal oath to never attack me, which you broke. Fun times.

FARK 5 - I haven't really had anything to do with these guys since my Farker days back in 2003. They seem to hate NSO but meh.

GPA 4 - Peace is a lie.

NPO 8 - Would be a 10 if they still held their Imperator Emeritus in high esteem.

FOK 5 - I laughed.

MK 7 - Seemed cool at first but have been a bit sour lately. Went to war with them without a treaty but get no respect. It happens.

WTF 5 - WTF?

TOOL 5 - Never talked to them.

TDO 5 - Same.

VE 7 - These guys are cool.

Legion 3 - You should have honored the Imperial Accords.

RoK 5 - I rated this as no interaction at the start of the thread but would definitely drop it down to a 3 if doing the ratings today.

GATO 8 - Better neighbors than I expected. Goes to show what a little communication can do.

CSN 5 - Yeah.

Athens 4 - Londo can be cool when he wants to be but most of the time they are looking for ways to troll NSO so meh.

Gremlins 6 - Always liked them.

MCXA 5 - Still have no idea what these guys stand for. Not a big deal, just no interaction.

UPN 5 - No idea.

RIA 4 - They just seem annoying.

STA 10 - You can't ask for better allies. Even when they disagree with you they stand by their word and honor.

Invicta 7 - I personally like Invicta. I know a lot of my people don't for whatever reason but whatever.

RnR 6 - Seems like a cool bunch.

MASH 5 - No idea.

NADC 5 - Same.

WAPA 5 - Again.

NV 5 - These guys have a few good OWF posters. Other than that I don't know much about them.

NSO 10 - We are the best.

NEW 5 - No idea.

MA 5 - No idea.

Umbrella 5 - Gave them a 5 at the beginning then read a few posts from one of their "leaders" - probably would give them a 2 for letting a !@#$%-bag lead them.

FAN 8 - mpol is the best. Never really disagreed with FAN. Wars are sometimes fought for necessity.

LoSS 6 - Seem okay. Surprised they haven't done more considering their age. I might have stunted their growth during the Red Senate crisis a few years back.

TSO 2 - Seems like a real dickhead alliance.

NATO 5 - I have some people from NATO in NSO that speak highly of it but I have never talked to them.

Nordreich 6 - Anything supporting those of us genetically superior to the rest gets a positive vote from me.

GR 5 - No real communication with them.

Vanguard 5 - Same.

GOD 5 - Who?

FoB 5 - Same.

PC 1 - These guys suck. There is no other way to say it. They come out of nowhere and go out of their way to troll NSO and have been in several logs trying to get us rolled. Get over it.

Valhalla 5 - Seem okay but not very friendly.

GGA 5 - I have never had a problem with GGA personally. Not talked to them since my return though.

TPF 7 - A good solid alliance. I like them.

Not so bad yourself there Ivan

[Lincongrad]

Edit: The redistribution of power is a change. The fact that those who would wish to commit the same type of action as that of the Hegemony cannot currently do so is a big change, and a good one.

They can, actually, just not to alliances with strong ties to other treaty blocs. As always, smaller blocs and alliances with few treaties can be bullied by alliances with stronger ties to the system. The only difference is that now there are more sides to have ties to.

[Drostan]

They can, actually, just not to alliances with strong ties to other treaty blocs. As always, smaller blocs and alliances with few treaties can be bullied by alliances with stronger ties to the system. The only difference is that now there are more sides to have ties to.

Agreed fully on this. While I do think that Karma was a step in the right direction, it was an incomplete step. The atmosphere still requires that someone submit to the authority of a larger bloc or alliance in order to gain internationally-recognized sovereignty. Things will still move by way of swaying multiple blocs to consolidate their power against some other. We can do better. But for that, people need to get more comfortable with less treaties imo.

I will consider this world in a state of health when two alliances can actually fight one another over their differences without becoming quickly dwarfed by the conflict that results amongst their more powerful allies. Curbstomps are an illness and this planet needs a cure.

[Eric Cantona]

-referee whistles-

If you want to blabber about who did what and when, start a new thread. Otherwise, remain on topic. Which is, as the title so subtlely suggests ... "Rating alliances". This is your first and final yellow card. I'll be handing red card after this post.

[Gopherbashi]

Quick, somebody put up a rating.

I would, except that I think most of mine would be negative. I generally don't have strong emotions in this game, unless it's against someone.

[Cataduanes]

ODN 6 - I still remember you guys signing a personal oath to never attack me, which you broke. Fun times.

As someone who had to swear that oath back in the day I do seem to remember your goodself releasing ODN from that oath prior to GW1?? maybe my memory is a little fuzzy . But sincere thanks as i would expected a far lower rating from you.

[Ivan Moldavi]

As someone who had to swear that oath back in the day I do seem to remember your goodself releasing ODN from that oath prior to GW1?? maybe my memory is a little fuzzy . But sincere thanks as i would expected a far lower rating from you.

No, after the war I addressed the issue and apologized for enforcing it to begin with. It wasn't really a "fair" penalty to impose after the Citrus War, just something my twisted sense of humor thought funny at the time.

[Cataduanes]

No, after the war I addressed the issue and apologized for enforcing it to begin with. It wasn't really a "fair" penalty to impose after the Citrus War, just something my twisted sense of humor thought funny at the time.

Ah i see, so my memory is worse than fuzzy. Thanks for clearing that query for me

[Rafael Nadal]

So wait, you went around to all the alliances EXCEPT MA and after that in-depth detective work of yours you determined that it MUST be MA that cares about the term that bars Caffine from government and its because of them that term exists.

Seriously??? Thats what you're going with huh? Next time you may want to talk to your own allies or ummm I dont know, go to the source?

Hoo PM'ed before I wrote my rebuttal post. I will spare you my planned vitriolic rebuttal for insinuating that I did not do my homework. And I specifically did not go to Echelon to speak about that term, because what they feel about it is immaterial for my reasons to inquire about it.

Common opinion may be the more appropriate phrase. And many like to point out that opinion can quite often be wrong, as NSO do quite often on these boards. Rafael Nadal never came to me to talk about the Echelon reperations as I recall, not that I would discuss the terms of that with anyone not involved within that agreement.

Actually, I did, but you weren't around. Supposedly, two messages were left for you to try and get in contact with me so we could talk about the term, but that never happened, obviously.

[Shan Revan]

IRON 7 - I like these guys. I am not a fan of democracies in general because I believe their processes to be slow but IRON has always been consistently honest and trustworthy to me.

I suppose we do have limited voting process, but I'd say there are quite a few of out there that would contend our status as a democracy. Personally we describe ourselves a self appointing meritocratic oligarchy .

[Draztikus]

I suppose we do have limited voting process, but I'd say there are quite a few of out there that would contend our status as a democracy. Personally we describe ourselves a self appointing meritocratic oligarchy .

You have a voting process now? Or do you mean the Councillors voting amongst themselves over who to appoint as new Councillors?