Ordo Verde Announcement

[jerdge]

No, its not, why would you think that. Also, your right elections are most certainly more legitimate...hence Peter holding elections right now and that's what this was all about in the first place. The crux of the issue is that Tito would not hold elections for his spot as he was requited to, so therefore no elections could be held while Tito was still in office and refusing to leave.

I really don't get the issue, and I understand it would be amusing to see OV fail but think of it this way: What would VE benefit from this if Shattenmann's assessment was true? OV is small and shrinking. What possible benefit could we get? Truth is, Morey (a former triumver of OV) came back to VE and told us and Seth about the sad state of affairs with Tito over there in OV. Seth will not even be able to (occ: play this game) do anything in government soon, but as a last act he wanted to make sure the alliance he loved so much did not suffercate under the hands of a disgusting and utterly inactive kid (and yes, I'm using the term correctly, there is much more disgusting things that can be said of Titos character but I do not want to risk going off topic. If you don't believe me, go ask someone in the know from NPO for a prime example).

So what would Seth have to gain here? What would we have to gain here? None of it makes any sense, him and Peter were just doing the right thing and we will be dammed if we hang them out to dry because it would simply easier to let the crazy person who wouldn't step down stay in power. Sorry, you may not like it. Shattenman may not like it. Everyone who thinks it would be funny to see OV do something ironic after the karma war may not like it. Facts are facts, and you cannot get around them no matter how hard you try, you can only pander to the public and hope they ignore them, and that's what we have here in this thread. Its truly bizarre, I don't even know what to make of it. One final time, what in admin's name would VE or Seth have to gain from any of this? Come on now, think about it...

Impero, in all this mess you're again the Viridian that most notably spends his time to patiently explain VE's point of view. My respect to you.

I'd like to directly talk with you in private, but since I can't (no time) please forgive me if I express a little comment of mine here...

OV was clearly in a mess, and people in government and/or notable members (sethb) were in a serious disagreement over what was to be done, and who had the legal authority of doing it. I think that "everybody" can agree over this.

It's clear that sethb's faction considered zenergy's actions illegal, while zenergy's faction thought the same of sethb's.

Both factions acted towards what they honestly considered the best for OV, and VE decided to support sethb's side, mainly because it seemed the one able to get OV up and running again. I think I understand your motives and I can't blame you for having tried to help OV.

Anyway, persecuting zenergy is no use for anything other than harming OV's and VE's reputation.

You more or less said yourself that zenergy's intentions weren't evil, so why is it necessary to "punish" him? For having tried to help OV in a way you disagree was correct?

He proved his lack of personal interest when he had control over the forums and he anyway left for a more quiet accomodation; he wouldn't have looked to "harm" OV, and attacking him is just a source of potential trouble with no gain for your side.

Likewise, this cancellation on GUN was hasty and it horribly backfired; I don't question sethb's real intentions (I obviously can't know them!) but VE might want to talk with him about the diplomatic way to go about such issues, the next time; if you developed this measure together with him, instead, I suggest that you think about reviewing your own policies (Excuse my bluntness, time isn't my friend...)

Bottom line, with OV secured in the hands you hope are capable of restoring it to its former glory, there's no reason to waste time, energies and credibility over a silly vengeance against a single former member, that hardly did anything worth such a punishment and most probably was just protecting the same values you were (albeit in a way you disagreed with).

Would you consider suggesting to OV to leave zenergy free?

(I of course don't need a reply, and I apologize if you will see this message as an intrusion.)

[sethb]

Would you consider suggesting to OV to leave zenergy free?

(I of course don't need a reply, and I apologize if you will see this message as an intrusion.)

I've requested Petar to at least make it a week or less of war not a full ZI. Which I never intended to happen, as Lenny N Karl stated in the other thread.

If anyone has any questions feel free to contact me on irc.

Edited October 19, 2009 by sethb

[Il Impero Romano]

Impero, in all this mess you're again the Viridian that most notably spends his time to patiently explain VE's point of view. My respect to you.

I'd like to directly talk with you in private, but since I can't (no time) please forgive me if I express a little comment of mine here...

OV was clearly in a mess, and people in government and/or notable members (sethb) were in a serious disagreement over what was to be done, and who had the legal authority of doing it. I think that "everybody" can agree over this.

It's clear that sethb's faction considered zenergy's actions illegal, while zenergy's faction thought the same of sethb's.

Both factions acted towards what they honestly considered the best for OV, and VE decided to support sethb's side, mainly because it seemed the one able to get OV up and running again. I think I understand your motives and I can't blame you for having tried to help OV.

Anyway, persecuting zenergy is no use for anything other than harming OV's and VE's reputation.

You more or less said yourself that zenergy's intentions weren't evil, so why is it necessary to "punish" him? For having tried to help OV in a way you disagree was correct?

He proved his lack of personal interest when he had control over the forums and he anyway left for a more quiet accomodation; he wouldn't have looked to "harm" OV, and attacking him is just a source of potential trouble with no gain for your side.

Likewise, this cancellation on GUN was hasty and it horribly backfired; I don't question sethb's real intentions (I obviously can't know them!) but VE might want to talk with him about the diplomatic way to go about such issues, the next time; if you developed this measure together with him, instead, I suggest that you think about reviewing your own policies (Excuse my bluntness, time isn't my friend...)

Bottom line, with OV secured in the hands you hope are capable of restoring it to its former glory, there's no reason to waste time, energies and credibility over a silly vengeance against a single former member, that hardly did anything worth such a punishment and most probably was just protecting the same values you were (albeit in a way you disagreed with).

Would you consider suggesting to OV to leave zenergy free?

(I of course don't need a reply, and I apologize if you will see this message as an intrusion.)

The post you responded to was a few pages back, and a few of my statements there were better clarified in my subsequent responses, but I'll reiterate a few things. Zenergy's actions need not be evil, as they speak for themselves without any qualifiers. Simple fact, he removed admin access from everyone in the alliance then left...leaving the government without any control over their own home. If it were not for the happenstance ease in which they were able to contact their {occ:domain owner I think? I'm bad with technical stuff}, they would have lost all information from their forums and been forced to start anew.

This, without question in my eye's, deserves punishment. One need not be evil or have intent to harm to be held liable, as gross negligence will produce the same consequence. I keep saying that Zen's motives are not of concern in this issue because of that fact, and it truly does not matter if he acted with an intent to harm or negligent naivety. Contrasted with the actions of Peter in removing Tito, there was no element of public necessity (see my posts above and on the last page or two to understand what I mean by that term) in what Zenergy did, only retribution on Tito's behalf, and the motives that he asserted to GUN as an explanation were proved to be false during negotiations. Therefore, the only option is punishment, and we support our allies in OV in whatever punishment they decide to hand out. However, after seeing Zenergy and Peter talking normally today in #ov, I doubt it will be a full nor lengthy issue.

As for the diplomatic aspect of this, I think the public's perception is quite warped. The cancellation was warranted to be sure, as GUN was confronted with blatant facts and simply refused to listen to any story besides that which Zenergy provided them at the onset. After though, through mediation between them by NATO and myself, things were quite pleasant and smooth (much thanks again to Lenny).

All in all, the private parties at hand here settled this normally, and the public continued to warp it into something it was not. I think one of the issues here is the necessary facts and reasoning are spread out all over this thread (for example, you responding just now to a post I made a while back and then later clarified as necessary...not that I fault you, I do it all the time as well), but if you look they are truly there.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[janax]

I've requested Petar to at least make it a week or less of war not a full ZI. Which I never intended to happen, as Lenny N Karl stated in the other thread.

If anyone has any questions feel free to contact me on irc.

Why would you have any say? You are just a run of the mill member....right?

[sethb]

Why would you have any say? You are just a run of the mill member....right?

Actually I'm not a member of OV at all.

Even if I was, OV members have the right to request anything of their government.

Edited October 20, 2009 by sethb

[Proxian Empire]

Schattenmann fought for the Unjust Path, which unfortunately means I cannot agree with him. Viridia, however, is an alliance of traitors. Screw it, I hope you all burn.

I agree with this man.

[Lord Brendan]

I agree with this man.

But... but... he didn't mention clowns.

[Schattenmann]

No, its not, why would you think that. Also, your right elections are most certainly more legitimate...hence Peter holding elections right now and that's what this was all about in the first place. The crux of the issue is that Tito would not hold elections for his spot as he was requited to, so therefore no elections could be held while Tito was still in office and refusing to leave.

I really don't get the issue, and I understand it would be amusing to see OV fail but think of it this way: What would VE benefit from this if Shattenmann's assessment was true? OV is small and shrinking. What possible benefit could we get? Truth is, Morey (a former triumver of OV) came back to VE and told us and Seth about the sad state of affairs with Tito over there in OV. Seth will not even be able to (occ: play this game) do anything in government soon, but as a last act he wanted to make sure the alliance he loved so much did not suffercate under the hands of a disgusting and utterly inactive kid (and yes, I'm using the term correctly, there is much more disgusting things that can be said of Titos character but I do not want to risk going off topic. If you don't believe me, go ask someone in the know from NPO for a prime example).

So what would Seth have to gain here? What would we have to gain here? None of it makes any sense, him and Peter were just doing the right thing and we will be dammed if we hang them out to dry because it would simply easier to let the crazy person who wouldn't step down stay in power. Sorry, you may not like it. Shattenman may not like it. Everyone who thinks it would be funny to see OV do something ironic after the karma war may not like it. Facts are facts, and you cannot get around them no matter how hard you try, you can only pander to the public and hope they ignore them, and that's what we have here in this thread. Its truly bizarre, I don't even know what to make of it. One final time, what in admin's name would VE or Seth have to gain from any of this? Come on now, think about it...

You keep pointing to how "bad" Tito was as a special circumstances justification to make Petar's coup possible. A coup is a coup is a coup.

Zenergy has already said that he cannot stand Tito, but because of his respect for OV's charter, he held the course. Seth and VE tried to characterize Zenergy and Tito as "best buddies 4ever"--an outright lie--to try to dupe the world into believing that SethB had no other recourse. You tell lies. You're liars. I don't believe you. Not even the only fact that could possibly absolved you all is true--the charter switch/government system change resets the term count, so there wasn't even an overdue election!

Furthermore, I spoke to "people in the know in NPO" and Zenergy is right, Tito said some pretty scummy things to a NPO member, but being a skeez doesn't make a person ok to coup. I've heard worse in alliance private channels from people with the same demographics as Tito.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Il Impero Romano]

You keep pointing to how "bad" Tito was as a special circumstances justification to make Petar's coup possible. A coup is a coup is a coup.

Actually, if you havent noticed, I have only refrenced it once or twice and have tried to keep away from that aspect of it as much as possible. You say this is a coup, I say Peter was using the legitamte affirmitive defense of public necessity in removing Tito.

Zenergy has already said that he cannot stand Tito, but because of his respect for OV's charter, he held the course. Seth and VE tried to characterize Zenergy and Tito as "best buddies 4ever"--an outright lie--to try to dupe the world into believing that SethB had no other recourse.

You obviously did not notice, but my attitude on where Zenergy's friendship with Tito plays into this changed after I learned that to be true. Once again, that does not change the fact that Zenergy's actions themselves, whether a product of retribution on Tito's behalf or pure benevolently minded naivety on his part, it does not matter, they deserved punishment. I explained it rather thoroughly in my post above to Jerdge:

"Zenergy's actions need not be evil, as they speak for themselves without any qualifiers. Simple fact, he removed admin access from everyone in the alliance then left...leaving the government without any control over their own home. If it were not for the happenstance ease in which they were able to contact their {occ:domain owner I think? I'm bad with technical stuff}, they would have lost all information from their forums and been forced to start anew.

This, without question in my eye's, deserves punishment. One need not be evil or have intent to harm to be held liable, as gross negligence will produce the same consequence. I keep saying that Zen's motives are not of concern in this issue because of that fact, and it truly does not matter if he acted with an intent to harm or negligent naivety. Contrasted with the actions of Peter in removing Tito, there was no element of public necessity (see my posts above and on the last page or two to understand what I mean by that term) in what Zenergy did, only retribution on Tito's behalf, and the motives that he asserted to GUN as an explanation were proved to be false during negotiations. Therefore, the only option is punishment, and we support our allies in OV in whatever punishment they decide to hand out. However, after seeing Zenergy and Peter talking normally today in #ov, I doubt it will be a full nor lengthy issue."

You tell lies. You're liars. I don't believe you. Not even the only fact that could possibly absolved you all is true--the charter switch/government system change resets the term count, so there wasn't even an overdue election!

First off, relax. Your getting a little to into this. Second, you are a liar, you have absolutely no reason behind saying that aside from you thinking it to be true. We do not need to be absolved here, and the fact that your so intent on demonizing someone wearing green here is starting to look a little sick.

How do you explain that all other ministers held elections after their 3 month term then?

Furthermore, I spoke to "people in the know in NPO" and Zenergy is right, Tito said some pretty scummy things to a NPO member, but being a skeez doesn't make a person ok to coup. I've heard worse in alliance private channels from people with the same demographics as Tito.

Like I said above, that's just a small supporting fact, indicative of the type of person he is more then anything else.

Answer some questions for me:

What did Seth actually do in this? He rejoined OV after being told of Tito's refusal to abdicate by the Triumvir that resigned and joined VE. He brought the issue to light in the membership. He served as temp MoFA to help speak with GUN. He then resigned and joined VE, and soon he wont be on this planet anymore (something that has been planned for a very long time, mind you). Show me where he did wrong...

What does VE have to gain from this? There never will be a merge, and no merge was ever planned. Even if that speculation had merit, OV is very small, the benefit would not be worth this nonsense. What political benefit could there be in controlling them as you say we do? What in admins name makes you think that OV's government as it was prior to this was anti VE? They weren't, ask them, so why would we install a "pro VE" government? It makes no sense.

What kind of horrible and evil coup's objective is to hold elections for vacant positions as allotted in their charter?

[Schattenmann]

Actually, if you havent noticed, I have only refrenced it once or twice and have tried to keep away from that aspect of it as much as possible. You say this is a coup, I say Peter was using the legitamte affirmitive defense of public necessity in removing Tito.

The coup is the action, "using the legitimate affirmative defense of public necessity" is the reason. They are not the same. I'm saying whatever the reasoning, the action was a coup.

You obviously did not notice, but my attitude on where Zenergy's friendship with Tito plays into this changed after I learned that to be true.

Good job, but surprise, I'm not clapping. All that means is that VE, who was clearly aloof and ignorant to a great degree about OV's situation, acted based on LOTS of false presumptions. Whether or not you eralize you were wrong now doesn't undo or negate that you did it.

Once again, that does not change the fact that Zenergy's actions themselves, whether a product of retribution on Tito's behalf or pure benevolently minded naivety on his part, it does not matter, they deserved punishment. I explained it rather thoroughly in my post above to Jerdge:

"Zenergy's actions need not be evil, as they speak for themselves without any qualifiers. Simple fact, he removed admin access from everyone in the alliance then left...leaving the government without any control over their own home. If it were not for the happenstance ease in which they were able to contact their {occ:domain owner I think? I'm bad with technical stuff}, they would have lost all information from their forums and been forced to start anew.

This, without question in my eye's, deserves punishment. One need not be evil or have intent to harm to be held liable, as gross negligence will produce the same consequence. I keep saying that Zen's motives are not of concern in this issue because of that fact, and it truly does not matter if he acted with an intent to harm or negligent naivety. Contrasted with the actions of Peter in removing Tito, there was no element of public necessity (see my posts above and on the last page or two to understand what I mean by that term) in what Zenergy did, only retribution on Tito's behalf, and the motives that he asserted to GUN as an explanation were proved to be false during negotiations. Therefore, the only option is punishment, and we support our allies in OV in whatever punishment they decide to hand out. However, after seeing Zenergy and Peter talking normally today in #ov, I doubt it will be a full nor lengthy issue."

Again with the favoritism. Zenergy gets punished for doing what he thought was right even if he wasn't doing it because he's malicious, but SethB gets to alliance-hop out and back between VE and OV and avoid all punishment for his part in the coup.

This fact negates any claims on Zenergy or Tito.

First off, relax. Your getting a little to into this. Second, you are a liar, you have absolutely no reason behind saying that aside from you thinking it to be true. We do not need to be absolved here, and the fact that your so intent on demonizing someone wearing green here is starting to look a little sick.

VE does need to be absolved. You went smashing-machine on another alliance's internal mechanisms. You either lied about your motivations, or acted with such poor information that its criminally negligent.

How do you explain that all other ministers held elections after their 3 month term then?

I don't know that all the other ministers held elections. If they felt that the timing was one way, and Tito thought it was another, it was--one more time everybody--an internal matter. We now know that Tito was not plannig on never holdign elections for his office again, jsut that he was on a different schedule. So your huge awful problem was anything but--it would have resolved itself at the end of the month when his elections were coming.

Answer some questions for me:

What did Seth actually do in this? He rejoined OV after being told of Tito's refusal to abdicate by the Triumvir that resigned and joined VE. He brought the issue to light in the membership. He served as temp MoFA to help speak with GUN. He then resigned and joined VE, and soon he wont be on this planet anymore (something that has been planned for a very long time, mind you). Show me where he did wrong...

Seth is an instigator. I've gone over his part in other posts.

What does VE have to gain from this? There never will be a merge, and no merge was ever planned. Even if that speculation had merit, OV is very small, the benefit would not be worth this nonsense. What political benefit could there be in controlling them as you say we do? What in admins name makes you think that OV's government as it was prior to this was anti VE? They weren't, ask them, so why would we install a "pro VE" government? It makes no sense.

Follow the money. The motivations have also already been covered.

What kind of horrible and evil coup's objective is to hold elections for vacant positions as allotted in their charter?

VANCANCIES CREATED BY THE COUP! The ends and the means cannot be the same!

[Lenny N Karl]

Impero, my friend.

you are overly defending your position on this matter. You and I both were mediators on this issue, but in the long run, it is a GUN and OV issue. The positions of each side have been laid out and the resolution has been agreed to. Let the public have their say and let us watch this issue move into the past.

/and that's all I have to say about that....

[Il Impero Romano]

The coup is the action, "using the legitimate affirmative defense of public necessity" is the reason. They are not the same. I'm saying whatever the reasoning, the action was a coup.

Your, simply put, wrong. Look back a few pages and into my occ cite on the topic of public necessity, you will see the analogy (at least I hope you will, for your sake).

Above we have a problem that we will see for the rest of your post: You say things and think that makes them correct, just because you say them.

Good job, but surprise, I'm not clapping. All that means is that VE, who was clearly aloof and ignorant to a great degree about OV's situation, acted based on LOTS of false presumptions. Whether or not you eralize you were wrong now doesn't undo or negate that you did it.

How does not knowing of one persons unspoken dislike of a coworker constitute an aloof attitude on our part? lol

Again with the favoritism. Zenergy gets punished for doing what he thought was right even if he wasn't doing it because he's malicious, but SethB gets to alliance-hop out and back between VE and OV and avoid all punishment for his part in the coup.

This fact negates any claims on Zenergy or Tito.

That all must have went completely over your head.

First, what was Seth's role in anything besides bringing the issue to light. Second, your saying it negates liability on the part of Tito and Zenergy because your grasping at straws and are still not adressing direct subject matter. Are you trying to tell me in all honesty that you hold somone removing admin access for everyone in the alliance is the same thing as Seth's confrontation of Tito's refusal to hold elections and general inactivity? Please, show me how the two compare.

VE does need to be absolved. You went smashing-machine on another alliance's internal mechanisms. You either lied about your motivations, or acted with such poor information that its criminally negligent.

Show me how we smashed, what exactly did we do because I must be missing it. We supported Peter, as we feel Tito's holding office past his terms expiration was just plain wrong and contributing to OV's suffocation as a result. You consider that to be a smashing machine?

I don't know that all the other ministers held elections. If they felt that the timing was one way, and Tito thought it was another, it was--one more time everybody--an internal matter. We now know that Tito was not plannig on never holdign elections for his office again, jsut that he was on a different schedule. So your huge awful problem was anything but--it would have resolved itself at the end of the month when his elections were coming.

Wait, how can you not know? Remember, you just said this:

You tell lies. You're liars. I don't believe you. Not even the only fact that could possibly absolved you all is true--the charter switch/government system change resets the term count, so there wasn't even an overdue election!

Strong words for someone who admits he does not know what hes talking about.

As for your contention that it was an internal matter, your right it was an it remained that way. We, as their brothers, showed our support for the party in the right, all the rest was internally OV, sorry to disappoint you.

Seth is an instigator. I've gone over his part in other posts.

Go over it again for me, what actions did he take that were out of his scope?

Follow the money. The motivations have also already been covered.

What? Follow the money? You lost me...can you please answer this question again, because that made no sense:

What does VE have to gain from this? There never will be a merge, and no merge was ever planned. Even if that speculation had merit, OV is very small, the benefit would not be worth this nonsense. What political benefit could there be in controlling them as you say we do? What in admins name makes you think that OV's government as it was prior to this was anti VE? They weren't, ask them, so why would we install a "pro VE" government? It makes no sense.

VANCANCIES CREATED BY THE COUP! The ends and the means cannot be the same!

You insist on saying its a coup because it makes them look bad, and you get pleasure from other people looking bad. The ends here are clearly not the means, so try explaining that statement a little better. It was a nice phrase to try and use, but you may have missed the mark on this one.

[The Big Bad]

Impero, my friend.

you are overly defending your position on this matter. You and I both were mediators on this issue, but in the long run, it is a GUN and OV issue. The positions of each side have been laid out and the resolution has been agreed to. Let the public have their say and let us watch this issue move into the past.

/and that's all I have to say about that....

Not gonna happen, this guy likes to go on and on and on and Schatt eats this stuff up. But, hey the good news is GUN came out looking good in all this while the others... not so much.

Edited October 20, 2009 by The Big Bad

[Ragashingo]

Just skimming by and saw something funny. Whenever one side has to make a claim such as "us and them are two separate alliances" you know there's a problem.

[BamaBuc]

Just skimming by and saw something funny. Whenever one side has to make a claim such as "us and them are two separate alliances" you know there's a problem.

In fairness to Viridia, that's a pretty reasonable response when someone accuses you of turning another alliance into a puppet state. If someone says "OV is basically a part of VE", there's nothing wrong with VE saying "Uh, no, we're two separate alliances."

With that said... I find myself in the uncomfortable but strangely pleasant position of agreeing with Schattenmann.

-Bama

[Schattenmann]

In fairness to Viridia, that's a pretty reasonable response when someone accuses you of turning another alliance into a puppet state. If someone says "OV is basically a part of VE", there's nothing wrong with VE saying "Uh, no, we're two separate alliances."

With that said... I find myself in the uncomfortable but strangely pleasant position of agreeing with Schattenmann.

-Bama

Now we, too, are dancing in the New World.

[Haflinger]

Do people understand what the word hegemonic actually means or is it just being used as a synonym for "bad" now?

HEGEMONY (hegemonic): The processes by which dominant culture maintains its dominant position: for example, the use of institutions to formalize power; the employment of a bureaucracy to make power seem abstract (and, therefore, not attached to any one individual); the inculcation of the populace in the ideals of the hegomonic group through education, advertising, publication, etc.; the mobilization of a police force as well as military personnel to subdue opposition.

Source.

The claim here is that VE saw their ally being too independent, and interfered in its internal processes to make sure a more subservient government could be put in place. You can argue about whether or not they did that, but if they did it, it's clearly hegemonic under any common definition of the word.

[WildThing]

Did I miss someone replying to tito, that he hadn't been in govt 3 months since sethb grabbed Emperorship for a while?

[Poyplemonkeys]

Am I right in thinking less than 3 months ago the Ordo Verde charter changed from the one that was used during Sethb's reign as emporer to one that covered the use of a triumvirate? Yet Tito was still expected to uphold the elections on a date stated by a charter that wasn't even in use anymore?

[titodafarmer]

I thought I might point out that if Seth is whining about how i didn't hold elections after 3 months......wouldn't 3 months be during Seth's reign as emperor? If its 5 months now.....and Seth resigned in September.....it would make SethB in charge of Minister reviews.

[Duluoz]

The explanation to all this is obvious. Petar is Sethb's multi. The coup is complete.

[Finster Baby]

Impero, my friend.

you are overly defending your position on this matter. You and I both were mediators on this issue, but in the long run, it is a GUN and OV issue. The positions of each side have been laid out and the resolution has been agreed to. Let the public have their say and let us watch this issue move into the past.

/and that's all I have to say about that....

Lenny you and I both know Impero lives for this. He won't stop, even if ordered to do so by VE.

And yes, Schatt will have him for breakfast if he continues.

I gotta find my dancing shoes - Schatt continues to impress. It *IS* uncomfortable, especially after the verbal sparring him and I did - but pleasant as well, as my good friend Bama mentioned.

[Teriethien]

Impero, my friend.

you are overly defending your position on this matter. You and I both were mediators on this issue, but in the long run, it is a GUN and OV issue. The positions of each side have been laid out and the resolution has been agreed to. Let the public have their say and let us watch this issue move into the past.

/and that's all I have to say about that....

Why would you say that, when it is so fun to watch

Edited October 21, 2009 by Teriethien