Ordo Verde Announcement

[Schattenmann]

As much as Seth's victory was contingent on his ties with VE, the general membership supported the "coup".

I must assume that if you know this without a doubt, that you have been given access to internal OV documents as evidence of its truth, and as such someone within Ordo Verde has been "spying" on Ordo Verde in order to prove to you that it's true.

Wait! where have I heard this one as an excuse for foreign intervention? Oh, I know . . .

Edited October 18, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Well this is a strange turn of events to walk back in on.

[Gabe Logan]

but admittedly, Schatt is dead on in his assessment.

[Schattenmann]

but admittedly, Schatt is dead on in his assessment.

Actually, I left out an important part: Petar is also a traitor due to his pivotal role in removing his co-triumvirs and holding elections to select two new triumvirs that are pleasing to VE.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Actually, I left out an important part: Petar is also a traitor due to his pivotal role in removing his co-triumvirs and holding elections to select two new triumvirs that are pleasing to VE.

I really don't think VE gives a !@#$ who runs OV. I believe they simply want to see OV stay afloat through this, and I for one am all for the resolution of it. Let's get this over with.

[Delta1212]

I'm interested in hearing Schattenman's take on tito's refusal to hold elections two months past the time his term expired and how this fits into the scenario of a VE coup.

[SonOfHoward]

Dude(shatt) we wouldn't mess with their elections. If OV were to elect insane people VE would cancel the treaty.

Edit: added Shatt cause Delta posted. :/

Edited October 18, 2009 by SonOfHoward

[Schattenmann]

I'm interested in hearing Schattenman's take on tito's refusal to hold elections two months past the time his term expired and how this fits into the scenario of a VE coup.

You've already heard my implicit take on Tito's actions: They are an internal matter that should be dealt with by internal means. The Ordo Verde charter:

Section II: Government

Article One - Council

The Council of Ordo Verde shall be comprised of the three chief executive ministers of Ordo Verde, and shall possess executive power within the alliance. Each Council Member shares the same power as the other two. A unanimous vote is required for all movements within the Council. The Council members also will hold the following positions:

- Minister of Foreign Operations

- Minister of Internal Affairs

- Minister of Defense

Article Two - Senate

The Senate of Ordo Verde will be comprised of up to, but not more then, five members, and will consist of the Ministry’s Deputy and two members elected from the general membership. The role of the Senate will be to advise the Council, propose motions and treaties, and provide support to the membership of Ordo Verde. Senatorial members have full authority over all members except members of Council.

• Article Two: Subsection One - Elections for Senators will be held once every two months on the first of the month, and will be decided by the majority vote of the membership of Ordo Verde.

• Article Two: Subsection Two - The Senate may, by unanimous vote only, introduce a motion to remove and replace a Council Member from office. If such a motion is put forth, the General Membership of Ordo Verde must vote 90% in favor for said motion to be executed. This Subsection may not be invoked while the alliance is at a state of war.

Article Three - Powers of Council

The Council has authoritative powers over all members of Ordo Verde. A majority vote is required on any issue of great importance. This includes, but is not limited to:

- Declaration of War

- Expulsion of Members

- Ratification of Treaties

- Appointment of Ministers

- Acceptance of Peace Terms

- Removal of Ministers from office

- Removal of Council Members from office

• Article Three: Subsection One - A declaration of War must be ratified by a unanimous Council vote.

• Article Three: Subsection Two - The removal of a Council member from office must be ratified by a majority of 2/3rds of Council Members, as well as a majority vote of 3/5ths of Senate.

Article Four - Promotion and Succession

- Ministers have complete control of their departments, and may promote or demote members at their will, with the betterment of the alliance in mind.

- When a Minister leaves office for any reason, the new minister will be elected by the Council with a 2/3rds majority. However, if desired, a Minister can be chosen from among the Senate or general membership as long as the said member is proposed by the previous Minister and is ratified by a 2/3rds vote of the Council.

Article Five - Minister Review.

- Ministers shall serve three month terms, at the end of which their ability to continue as a Minister will be put before the general membership, requiring a majority vote (receiving greater than 50% of the total votes) in order to continue in their position.

- If a minister is voted out of office, he or she may recommend a replacement, at which point a unanimous vote must be reached by the remainder of Council. If there is no recommendation by the outgoing Minister, the remainder of Council have to appoint a replacement.

- All Minister Positions will be reviewed, with the only exception being that the alliance is in a state of war when the review should be held. If this is the case, the Review will take place as soon as it is appropriate and in peace time. If a minister leaves office at a time of war, their deputy will be acting on their behalf until such a time a review is possible.

I'm not going to get into the business of interpreting OV's charter for them (for one, I dont' have access or knowledge to any relevant laws that might also effect the process), but in looking over the relevant sections of their charter, it looks like there were several legitimate ways for Petar and SethB sympathizers to remove Tito and Senergy.

I also don't know who's in charge of opening elections (in Vox Populi we very clearly spelled out that the Vox Dei was in charge of starting Senate elections in our system which also gave broad, strong powers to 5 people), but it seems to me that if Tito had gone 2 months past the 3-month marker and no election had been held, that it could be seen as two things: An implicit alliance-wide endorsement of his continuing service in the postition, or a failure of the person(s) in charge of safeguarding the Verdean electorate.

Regardless of how the problem (no vote of confidence after 3 months) arose, the actions of Petar, SethB, and VE all circumvent the established rules. The way to handle them was with the proper internal measures.

Dude(shatt) we wouldn't mess with their elections. If OV were to elect insane people VE would cancel the treaty.

Edit: added Shatt cause Delta posted. :/

You would mess with their current (now-former) triumvir setup, but you wouldn't/won't mess with any subsequent ones? Surrrrrrrrrrrre.

[draov]

Here's the facts from beginning to end:

1) I was accepted back into OV after my vacation in VE legally, and as a general member.

2) Tito did refuse to hold elections, even after it was made clear to him that holding office for 5 months is not a violation that will be ignored. On top of that, he tried to insist on staying in office longer. Simple fact of the matter is he most likely would have been re-elected if he only would take the chance, yet it seems fear of loosing "power" clouded his judgment.

3) Me and Peter consulted VE as a close friend and ally about what to do on the matter. They were shown proof of Titos refusal and tenure, and they determined they supported Me, Peter, and (at the time) Zenergy in whatever actions they felt were needed to rectify the situation.

4) Tito appeared on IRC and began to proclaim that I had couped him. Impero responded that VE does not conciser him to be a valid government member of OV. At this time, he offered Fran from NPO screen shots of his government forums, which consequently only showed logs of me registering #ov (Tito had been inactive for so long that it deregistered).

5) Zenergy spoke with Cornelius, who gave him the background of the situation, a full two days prior to him removing Peters admin. Zenergy responded with anger and an all around offensive attitude. Logs were provided during negotiations of this.

6) Tito was removed from OV.

7) Zenergy, upon learning this, demasked Peter and removed his admin access and restored Titos. Tito then copied all information off the OV forums. Zenergy then applied and was accepted to GUN. This is confirmed by the admin logs.

8) Negotiations, cancellation, release, now we are here.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

you left out the part about why Zenergy left OV after assisting Tito in his coup. I mean, if the opposing side was removed, why leave?

[Delta1212]

I'm not going to get into the business of interpreting OV's charter for them (for one, I dont' have access or knowledge to any relevant laws that might also effect the process), but in looking over the relevant sections of their charter, it looks like there were several legitimate ways for Petar and SethB sympathizers to remove Tito and Senergy.

I also don't know who's in charge of opening elections (in Vox Populi we very clearly spelled out that the Vox Dei was in charge of starting Senate elections in our system which also gave broad, strong powers to 5 people), but it seems to me that if Tito had gone 2 months past the 3-month marker and no election had been held, that it could be seen as two things: An implicit alliance-wide endorsement of his continuing service in the postition, or a failure of the person(s) in charge of safeguarding the Verdean electorate.

There are two legitimate ways to remove a Council Member according to their charter. One is through the normal election process, which I'll address in a minute. The other is a vote to remove him which requires, among other things, a 2/3 Council vote, or a vote of removal by the other two Council members. Since Tito and Zenergy were both council members, removing Tito through that method was impossible.

Now, admin is held by the Council members, a vote can't take place if one or more of them is preventing it from happening. When the person(s) in charge of safeguarding the Verdean electorate are the people who are refusing to allow elections, what exactly are your other options?

I'm putting to you, as a legitimate question, if you were in an alliance where the head of the alliance was blocking all attempts to remove him legally and ignoring the charter in doing so, and the membership wants a vote to take place as per the charter, what would you do?

[Gamemaster1]

Dude(shatt) we wouldn't mess with their elections. If OV were to elect insane people VE would cancel the treaty.

Edit: added Shatt cause Delta posted. :/

You messed with their current gov, but you won't mess with their future gov?

Why don't I buy it?

[SonOfHoward]

You messed with their current gov, but you won't mess with their future gov?

Why don't I buy it?

If my gov't was not allowing elections(as per the charter) I would want to do something about it.

Regardless I don't believe that's the issue. It's what happened after that.

[Schattenmann]

There are two legitimate ways to remove a Council Member according to their charter. One is through the normal election process, which I'll address in a minute. The other is a vote to remove him which requires, among other things, a 2/3 Council vote, or a vote of removal by the other two Council members. Since Tito and Zenergy were both council members, removing Tito through that method was impossible.

Now, admin is held by the Council members, a vote can't take place if one or more of them is preventing it from happening. When the person(s) in charge of safeguarding the Verdean electorate are the people who are refusing to allow elections, what exactly are your other options?

I'm putting to you, as a legitimate question, if you were in an alliance where the head of the alliance was blocking all attempts to remove him legally and ignoring the charter in doing so, and the membership wants a vote to take place as per the charter, what would you do?

Please do not take the simplicity of my answer as flip.

I'd leave.

SethB didn't like what was going on, he should've left. VE didn't like it, they should've cancelled. Apparently, once Petar saw his opportunity, didn't like what was going on, he should've left. This is all the simple concept of self-determination. Every nation in an alliance determines for itself whether or not it will retain its membership. If a member sees that the government has been effectively turned into a two-man show, then they should do two things: tell themselves how stupid they were for thinking a triumvirate would work, then leave the alliance for one where they were assured of their rights.

Alternatively, the Senate can vote for the removal of a Triumvir. Since two are popularly elected, and the other three are deputies of the triumvirs, then such a vote would likely have resulted in a 3 to 2 vote in favor (the two elected Senators and Petar's deputy in favor, Tito and Zenergy's against) whereupon the membership--who everyone is claiming supports the removal of these two--has to affirm the Senate vote by 90%. The tactics would be simple: Vote out Tito or Zenergy by a hair. The new Triumvir is now a popular representative. The Senate then has a 4 to 1 vote to remove the remaining triumvir.

Instead, SethB, Petar, and VE effected a coup and made themselves illegitimate.

[ChairmanHal]

I'm putting to you, as a legitimate question, if you were in an alliance where the head of the alliance was blocking all attempts to remove him legally and ignoring the charter in doing so, and the membership wants a vote to take place as per the charter, what would you do?

Not addressed to me, but it's pretty clear the due diligence wasn't done on the OV charter. Few alliances do this, though all should. It saves you a charter crisis and much public hoo-haw later.

The "book" says you try to seize control of the IRC channels and alliance forums, then clue in all your external alliance partners what's going on and ask for public statements of support for a new government. If you can't seize control of the communications channels, you establish new ones, inform alliance membership via PM through their nations (not the alliance forums) of what you are doing and why and ask to show their support by signing up for the new alliance forums and IRC channel. You keep your external alliances partners informed every step of the way. Once you have established a new base and have external support, you move on what's left the old alliance--either negotiating a reconciliation or failing that, war.

That's the book. It was clearly not followed. We're left asking what Schatt is asking: was this a matter for VE to intervene over? Given that OV's origins, I can see where the tendency would be to step in. Not everyone would necessarily agree.

EDIT: ok...double take time...I though Halloween was still a couple of weeks off...

Edited October 18, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[SonOfHoward]

^The vote has to be unanimous.

Edit: Slow posting reflexes due to alcohol. This in reply to Chairmanhal's aka Chairmanhal's last post.

Edited October 18, 2009 by SonOfHoward

[Schattenmann]

^The vote has to be unanimous.

Edit: Slow posting reflexes due to alcohol. This in reply to Chairmanhal's aka Chairmanhal's last post.

Note to OV: Now that you've broken the charter, fix it.

[pigsticker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I posting from what I have managed to understand from all the posts so far.

Petar is the remaining Trium from the previous administration and Sethb just returned from VE and is holding no government positions. All I've seen so far is postings by Sethb and none by Petar, which is surprising to me.

Albeit Sethb holds an important place in OV's past, but he's leaving the game in one month's time (??), shouldn't someone from the existing government be handling this rather than someone who wouldn't be part of the alliance in the not-so distant future?

[ChairmanHal]

^The vote has to be unanimous.

Edit: Slow posting reflexes due to alcohol. This in reply to Chairmanhal's aka Chairmanhal's last post.

It's ok, I'm seeing double and I've not been drinking.

Edited October 18, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Schattenmann]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I posting from what I have managed to understand from all the posts so far.

Petar is the remaining Trium from the previous administration and Sethb just returned from VE and is holding no government positions. All I've seen so far is postings by Sethb and none by Petar, which is surprising to me.

Albeit Sethb holds an important place in OV's past, but he's leaving the game in one month's time (??), shouldn't someone from the existing government be handling this rather than someone who wouldn't be part of the alliance in the not-so distant future?

That's a great issue itself. It's easily discernible to anyone that it's highly likely that Petar reached out to VE and/or SethB, and in light of the situation SethB came back lend his volksgeist powers to Petar's coup. "If SethB supports it, thenit can't be bad!"

Edited October 18, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Delta1212]

Please do not take the simplicity of my answer as flip.

I'd leave.

SethB didn't like what was going on, he should've left. VE didn't like it, they should've cancelled. Apparently, once Petar saw his opportunity, didn't like what was going on, he should've left. This is all the simple concept of self-determination. Every nation in an alliance determines for itself whether or not it will retain its membership. If a member sees that the government has been effectively turned into a two-man show, then they should do two things: tell themselves how stupid they were for thinking a triumvirate would work, then leave the alliance for one where they were assured of their rights.

Alternatively, the Senate can vote for the removal of a Triumvir. Since two are popularly elected, and the other three are deputies of the triumvirs, then such a vote would likely have resulted in a 3 to 2 vote in favor (the two elected Senators and Petar's deputy in favor, Tito and Zenergy's against) whereupon the membership--who everyone is claiming supports the removal of these two--has to affirm the Senate vote by 90%. The tactics would be simple: Vote out Tito or Zenergy by a hair. The new Triumvir is now a popular representative. The Senate then has a 4 to 1 vote to remove the remaining triumvir.

Instead, SethB, Petar, and VE effected a coup and made themselves illegitimate.

If you reread the Charter, the Senate can induce a vote for a removal of a Triumvir only with a unanimous decision, which means 5/5 not the 3/2 you suggest would have been likely.

Now, the other option you give is to leave and kick yourself for setting up a system of government that can be illegally high-jacked with no legal recourse. That's all well and good, but you are essentially saying that the only legitimate action the membership of OV could have taken in this situation if they wanted to combat Tito's seizure of power is to give up and kill their alliance. Unfortunately, not everyone is as cavalier about abandoning their alliance to a megalomaniac as it seems you would be.

I don't see anyone from OV out here complaining except for the person who was actually removed, so if Ordo Verde is happy with the situation, why is this an issue exactly?

[Dr hairy Ballz]

This issue should die, it is an internal matter. But I do appreciate all of your input on it.

[Francesca]

I'd like to shed some light on it from someone's who actually involved.

Sure I offered screenshots of our forums to Fran. They were of Seth not giving back the channel (#ov) when he was an ordinary member or OV after he left OV and then came back. Fran said no, so i never gave them to her. I wanted to give them to her because she did not believe me that SethB would do that. After Morey, our MoIA resigned, I put up emergency elections for the position. Zenergy was elected through fair processes. The government was Petar at Minister of Defense, Zenergy as Internal Affairs, and I at Foreign Affairs. Soon, SethB pestered me and pestered me about elections. They were about 2-3 weeks away at that point.

When SethB took over the #ov channel, he deop'ed government. I would have probably been fine with sops.

SethB continued to pester and pester. He also would not give back our channel, #ov. The government had decided that we needed to deal with SethB. Zenergy and I decided that we needed to make a new channel because of this. we made #ordoverde.

Soon after, Impero of VE issued a statement that I had gone rogue and was not recognized as a member of the government of OV. I found this confusing, but i immediately recognized it as Seth's doing because he's wanted us to merge with VE for a long time. That's also why he came back(probably). I'm not sure of many details after that, but after Zenergy was elected, I made sure all three triums had full admin access. I made a backup of the board in case anything would go wrong because i wanted to save all the info up to this point because I needed to make sure i kept SethB's public rebuke of government and instructions to give up the channel to one of the triums. Our boards are hosted by a member of VE on their personal server. After this, i'm not sure what happened but soon i was banned from the boards, and i was being attacked for actually giving screenshots to fran, not holding elections (charter broken?) and apparently other things. Zenergy continued to fight for the right government but Seth, or someone else got to Petar and he has sided with Seth....

Its quite obvious that VE has facilitated a coup on OV to put Seth back.

I found it funny that SethB has broken the charter on many occasions before and did so now.

Apparently I wasn't rolling over to VE enough.

Tito

EDIT: after reading the other thread, I thought i'd throw this out there. I've had Admin since before SethB was emperor. He was too busy getting drunk to do anything, so he's the one that gave me access.

Uhh..... well, here is the actual log from our conversation. I think you'll find it absolves me of all responsibility in this entire affair, and endorses my version of events.

Session Start: Sat Oct 10 13:37:51 2009

Session Ident: tito[OV|MoFA]

[13:37] Session Ident: tito[OV|MoFA] (Coldfront, Francesca[NPO]) (football_w@derpderp)

[13:37] <tito[OV|MoFA]> howdy

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] is football_w@derpderp * Drew

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] is a registered nick

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] on ~#oneup #nsa greenhouse ~#te-uja #athens +#PhR %#bakingcakes +#paradox #coj @#imbored24470 #gremlins +#vanguard %#cn-gop +#slcb +#gga #GPA %#archein #tjo #bellare ~#ov_gov ~#ordo_private #ov #ve +#RoK +#Farkistan %#gun ~#thebarn

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] using storm.coldfront.net Welcome to Coldfront!

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] will eternally work for tito in his fields.

01[13:37] tito[OV|MoFA] End of /WHOIS list.

-

01[13:37] <Francesca[NPO]> hey

[13:37] <tito[OV|MoFA]> well

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> I'm having my troubles

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> if you've been in #ov lately

01[13:38] <Francesca[NPO]> What's up?

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> sethb took over the chan and is attempting to coup lol

01[13:38] <Francesca[NPO]> lolwut?

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> but he's failing......he's a coup of one

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> he refuses to give back chan

[13:38] <tito[OV|MoFA]> brb, sorry

01[13:39] <Francesca[NPO]> Start #ordoverde

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> OH

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> DAMN

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> that would work

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lol

01[13:39] <Francesca[NPO]> Here, I'll register it for you.

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> wait wait

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lemme do it

[13:39] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lol

Session Close: Sat Oct 10 13:43:13 2009

Session Start: Sat Oct 10 14:05:48 2009

Session Ident: tito[OV|MoFA]

[14:05] Session Ident: tito[OV|MoFA] (Coldfront, Francesca[NPO]) (football_w@derpderp)

[14:05] <tito[OV|MoFA]> goddmanit

-

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] is football_w@derpderp * Drew

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] is a registered nick

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] on ~#ordoverde ~#oneup #nsa greenhouse ~#te-uja #athens +#PhR %#bakingcakes +#paradox #coj @#imbored24470 #gremlins +#vanguard %#cn-gop +#slcb +#gga #GPA %#archein #tjo #bellare ~#ov_gov ~#ordo_private #ov #ve +#RoK +#Farkistan %#gun ~#thebarn

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] using storm.coldfront.net Welcome to Coldfront!

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] will eternally work for tito in his fields.

01[14:05] tito[OV|MoFA] End of /WHOIS list.

-

[14:05] <tito[OV|MoFA]> SethB orchestrated a full out coup

01[14:06] <Francesca[NPO]> uhhh

[14:06] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lemme show you what impero keeps posting

[14:06] <tito[OV|MoFA]> [20:01] <Impero[VE]> At this point in time, VE does not recognize Tito as a triumverate of Ordo Verde. It has come to our attention that he has been violating the charter in an attempt to establish himself as dictator. Our treaty with OV still stands, and we are fiercly loyal to the OV AA, and will conduct ourselves accordingly.

[14:07] <tito[OV|MoFA]> he wont talk to me

[14:07] <tito[OV|MoFA]> and he keeps telling me that Zenergy wants me out 0.o

01[14:07] <Francesca[NPO]> Impero?

[14:07] <tito[OV|MoFA]> yea

[14:07] <tito[OV|MoFA]> he just posted it in #ov too

[14:09] <tito[OV|MoFA]> could you please go on #ov too?

[14:09] <tito[OV|MoFA]> and chimera has it

[14:09] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lol

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> if seth runs in the elections in 2 weeks and wins....he can be in gov again...

01[14:10] <Francesca[NPO]> What's going on?

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> Sethb has been chatting with VE for a long time

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> thats why they are putting up a fuss

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> and sethb left OV

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> went to VE

[14:10] <tito[OV|MoFA]> now is back

[14:11] <tito[OV|MoFA]> and wants to run the alliance again

01[14:11] <Francesca[NPO]> But VE are !@#$%^&*ting.

[14:11] <tito[OV|MoFA]> they are acting on info SethB gave them

[14:13] <tito[OV|MoFA]> ill send you a screeny from our gov forums if you want proof our triums dont like seth's new problem causing

01[14:16] <Francesca[NPO]> uhm

01[14:17] <Francesca[NPO]> I can't accept screenshots of the government forums of other alliances.

[14:17] <tito[OV|MoFA]> Fine

[14:17] <tito[OV|MoFA]> how does public member forums?

01[14:17] <Francesca[NPO]> ?

[14:18] <tito[OV|MoFA]> cause its got sethB openly saying he wont give back #ov

[14:19] <tito[OV|MoFA]> he said it right on public member forums

[14:19] <tito[OV|MoFA]> lol

01[14:20] <Francesca[NPO]> I can't accept screenshots period.

[14:20] <tito[OV|MoFA]> fine

Session Close: Sat Oct 10 14:23:24 2009

Edited October 18, 2009 by Francesca

[Schattenmann]

Yeah, my B, I demonstrated why I didnt' get into interpreting OV's charter the first time by mis-reading it. Depending on how loyal Zen and Tito's deputies were, a senate vote was the last best option. Hal's approach is dubious but far better than bringing in the VE shocktroops.

I don't see anyone from OV out here complaining except for the person who was actually removed, so if Ordo Verde is happy with the situation, why is this an issue exactly?

The fact of the matter is that no one sees anyone from OV posting pretty much ever. We've got Vilien, leader of TMF; SethB, a leader in the coup; and the government of VE saying that everyone in OV is happy as can be. Additionally, that members of OV are happy with the outcome does not mean that they are happy with the means.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Well I am Gov., and while I have not been as active of late due to rl stuff, I do trust Sethb quite impeccably. Now, for disclosure I should say I have not had contact with Tito or Zenergy but I do wish to speak to them.

There are a few things I can speak to tho:

1) Sethb had been a boisterous supporter of OV's sovereignty.

2) I believe Tito to be honorable.

3) Petar started this whole "argument" with the intention of restoring current gov to the ends that they hold elections.

4)As soon as the "coup" as you are calling it was effected elections were initiated immediately. I have read your argument that a "pro-VE" gov was to be installed, this is in fact no the case. I would, as a generalization, say that OV is pro-VE simply because of the support and help they have given us. And as a final note: To what ends would VE think it is a good idea to run OV, seriously, we are a tiny alliance with only a few members; do you see what they would gain from a puppet government because I do not. And I also don't think they would ever do that, but that is just me.

[Schattenmann]

4)As soon as the "coup" as you are calling it was effected elections were initiated immediately. I have read your argument that a "pro-VE" gov was to be installed, this is in fact no the case. I would, as a generalization, say that OV is pro-VE simply because of the support and help they have given us. And as a final note: To what ends would VE think it is a good idea to run OV, seriously, we are a tiny alliance with only a few members; do you see what they would gain from a puppet government because I do not. And I also don't think they would ever do that, but that is just me.

A Pro-VE gov has been installed: Petar as lone dictator until the elections are completed.

The ends to which VE would think it is a good idea to run OV are glaringly obvious: Reps. It has been mentioned in this thread that SethB wants to merge OV into VE. If that happened, VE would suddenly be on the receiving end of alllllllllll that tech and money om nom nom. If for whatever reason other Karma AAs would block that redistribution of reps, then VE needs to do what it's doing now: keep OV together long enough for them to receive all the reps, then merge. In either case, VE gets all that tech and money.