SonOfHoward Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'm happy I'm not the only one partaking in alcoholic beverages this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr hairy Ballz Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 A Pro-VE gov has been installed: Petar as lone dictator until the elections are completed.The ends to which VE would think it is a good idea to run OV are glaringly obvious: Reps. It has been mentioned in this thread that SethB wants to merge OV into VE. If that happened, VE would suddenly be on the receiving end of alllllllllll that tech and money om nom nom. If for whatever reason other Karma AAs would block that redistribution of reps, then VE needs to do what it's doing now: keep OV together long enough for them to receive all the reps, then merge. In either case, VE gets all that tech and money. The truth is, I can understand that point of view being outside of OV. But if OV were to merge, and again, IF, I would demand payment of OV's tech reps to all OV members only. And the other obvious point, my fight is for OV to remain OV. And OV members are free at all times to quit or join any alliance they desire. I love and will continue to love OV, but the reality is this: OV has had a helluva year and requires leadership. I think Sethb's heart lays in keeping OV its own entity, actually, I know he wants that. And I think if he were available and could help achieve that goal he would without hesitation, but the fact is shortly, he will not be. The other thing, if Seth wanted power OV is not where he would have come. Seth has had multiple legitimate opportunities to be an emperor or dictator and has ALWAYS turned it down at first mention. And I know from working with him intimately that he has no intentions of that, but again, you do have to take my word for it. Anyhow, I would like to move OV beyond this situation, to a bright future. -DHB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr hairy Ballz Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'm happy I'm not the only one partaking in alcoholic beverages this evening. Is this joke? When are we all not drunk? srsly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Seth has had multiple legitimate opportunities to be an emperor or dictator and has ALWAYS turned it down at first mention. And I know from working with him intimately that he has no intentions of that, but again, you do have to take my word for it. Is that a fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr hairy Ballz Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Is that a fact? Actually yes, Seth was Emperor during reconstruction, and freely gave up power after we could hold elections. He has acted honorably. I would not say that if I did not, from my experience, believe and have 100% confidence in him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfHoward Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Is this joke?When are we all not drunk? srsly I retract my last statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr hairy Ballz Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Sorry, also, what you are quoting is at least 6 months old. And yes, I can guarantee that from the data available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reccesion Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Actually yes, Seth was Emperor during reconstruction, and freely gave up power after we could hold elections. He has acted honorably. I would not say that if I did not, from my experience, believe and have 100% confidence in him. Someone seems to be back peddling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfHoward Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Someone seems to be back peddling. I don't understand this. His story hasn't changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iotupa Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 A Pro-VE gov has been installed: Petar as lone dictator until the elections are completed.The ends to which VE would think it is a good idea to run OV are glaringly obvious: Reps. It has been mentioned in this thread that SethB wants to merge OV into VE. If that happened, VE would suddenly be on the receiving end of alllllllllll that tech and money om nom nom. If for whatever reason other Karma AAs would block that redistribution of reps, then VE needs to do what it's doing now: keep OV together long enough for them to receive all the reps, then merge. In either case, VE gets all that tech and money. Schattenmann has always been pretty good at picking this sort of thing out of the shadows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reccesion Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I don't understand this. His story hasn't changed. Not his story, he goes from saying he was never Emperor and always turned it down, to he was Emperor for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr hairy Ballz Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not his story, he goes from saying he was never Emperor and always turned it down, to he was Emperor for a bit. NO! I went from saying if he desired it I am SURE he could have it. But he does not (you are referring to a long time ago) which is why elections were called immediately. I am not back peddling at all. I encourage you to re-read exactly what I have posted. And if you desire further clarification I am on #ov so come talk to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draov Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I am not back peddling at all. I encourage you to re-read exactly what I have posted. And if you desire further clarification I am on #ov so come talk to me. this just got serious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 A Pro-VE gov has been installed: Petar as lone dictator until the elections are completed. This is actually one part where their charter shines, It details the composition of the council as well as what votes are needed to pass certain measures, because there is no one else to vote Petars legislative authority is actually quite limited, he can never make the requisite majority as only one man in the three seat vote. His only real option is to hold elections, as without at least 2 members the governments functionality is quite limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 This is actually one part where their charter shines, It details the composition of the council as well as what votes are needed to pass certain measures, because there is no one else to vote Petars legislative authority is actually quite limited, he can never make the requisite majority as only one man in the three seat vote.His only real option is to hold elections, as without at least 2 members the governments functionality is quite limited. Your observation makes absolutely no sense; Petar completely disregarded the unanimity requirements when he expelled Tito and Zenergy. For that matter, why should the two newly-elected Council/Triumvirs believe that if Petar one day disagrees with them on some matter he won't remove one or both of them? Why should OV members believe he won't do it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenergy Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 It seems that there are quite a few misconceptions floating around that need to be cleared up. I hadn't intended to post anything in this thread, but since the announcement was made I've been flooded by queries on IRC asking me what happened. Rather than recount events to each person, I'll just put it up here so that everybody can see. I also have logs to back everything up. Let me state one thing right now: OV was the victim of a coup, as I will irrefutably demonstrate below. I also stand by my actions, and believe that I did the right thing. I'll take honor before infra any day, and I'm proud to say I have a clear conscience regarding this matter. Here’re the meat and potatoes: First, let’s take a minute to clear up some misconceptions regarding myself and Tito: Titodafarmer is one of my least favorite people on Planet Bob. He was directly responsible for getting GUN rolled by BLEU, and countless other disreputable shenanigans. While I feel his heart is usually in the right place, he happens to be an extraordinary magnet and source of BS, and isn’t somebody I voluntarily hang around. I made sure he was banned from GUN for the entire time I was a trium, and rejected more than one membership request. If I’m EVER defending Tito, it’s because despite my personal feelings, the law’s the law. He was an elected member of OV’s government, as was I. Therefore, it’s my duty to put my personal feelings aside; I don’t have to like somebody to work with them. It’s called being a grown up. Prior to my departure, I was the recently elected Minister of Internal Affairs for Ordo Verde. OV’s structure is set up so that the Ministers function as triums, and are collectively called the Council. The events that I’m going to recount take place both before and after I was elected. In early September, SethB voluntarily vacated the position of Emperor, and OV reverted to its previous charter that recognized the Council as the ruling body. After this happened, Seth resigned from OV and joined VE. About a week later, he came back to OV. Shortly after he returned, on October first, Seth persuaded Dutchers to give him ownership of #ov. He changed the topic to say: Dear Tito, Resign. You're a joke. Love, Everyone It was at this point that Tito, Petar, and myself all told Seth he needed to hand over ownership of #ov immediately. He refused and gave some BS answer about how he could only access IRC on his phone, so he couldn’t transfer the channel. Nobody was fooled. On October 9th, he changed the topic to read: Tito sorry I'm taking my alliance back, b****. -love Seth|Tito sweetie, your empty threats dont concern me, I will end you By this point, it was pretty obvious what was going on. When I spoke with Seth that evening, he kept going on and on about Tito, and how he was spying on OV and sending screenshots to the NPO. Tito told me about this when it happened, and that he’d offered to Fran screenshots of Seth’s refusal to hand over #ov. It seemed to be of questionable judgment, but well within his rights as a trium. It also seemed fishy that Seth was mad about information being released that painted him in a negative light, and that seemed like more of the real motivation. I informed Seth that I would be happy to hear any credible evidence that he had regarding Tito. Honestly, I’d have loved to have a reason to kick him out of OV. That being said, I believe firmly that the rule of law is paramount, and everybody deserves a fair hearing, regardless of my personal feelings. I also told Seth that he was welcome to run for office in the elections I had scheduled (as MoIA, elections were my job, not Tito’s), but that he couldn’t just supersede the elected government on a whim. I also spoke with Cornelius that evening regarding an amsg that Impero had sent out stating that VE did not recognize the government of OV. Despite reminding Cornelius that they were in violation of articles I, II, and VII of our MDAP, he still refused to support the legitimate government of OV and sided with Seth. That was the Friday before last. After that, things seemed to calm down for the weekend. I planned on getting Tito and Petar together to discuss what to do about Seth. Personally, I wanted to put him on warning, and wait it out until he went to rehab, as he’d probably not be acting like this when he got back. However, before I had a chance to catch them both on IRC, everything blew up. On the day of the coup, last Wednesday the 14th, I had no idea anything was going on. I logged into CN as normal, and checked the war screen for OV the way I always do. When I saw that Tito was being attacked by VE I was shocked. I immediately spoke with Cornelius on IRC and demanded that the attacks stop immediately, and that Tito had not been expelled as per the OV charter. He refused to do so, and sided with Petar, despite being informed that there was a clear breach of OV law. Here are the relevant sections: OV Charter: http://ordoverde.mattluria.com/index.php?topic=2341.0 •Article Two: Subsection Two - The Senate may, by unanimous vote only, introduce a motion to remove and replace a Council Member from office. If such a motion is put forth, the General Membership of Ordo Verde must vote 90% in favor for said motion to be executed. This Subsection may not be invoked while the alliance is at a state of war. Article Three- Powers of CouncilThe Council has authoritative powers over all members of Ordo Verde. A majority vote is required on any issue of great importance. This includes, but is not limited to: - Declaration of War - Expulsion of Members - Ratification of Treaties - Appointment of Ministers - Acceptance of Peace Terms - Removal of Ministers from office - Removal of Council Members from office •Article Three: Subsection One - A declaration of War must be ratified by a unanimous Council vote. •Article Three: Subsection Two - The removal of a Council member from office must be ratified by a majority of 2/3rds of Council Members, as well as a majority vote of 3/5ths of Senate. There was no vote, and therefore per our charter, Tito was still a minister. Like I said before, I would have been happy to put the matter up for a vote and let the populace decide after a fair hearing of the evidence. When I logged on to the forums, I saw that Petar had demasked Tito and put Seth into his place. Since Tito was expelled through an illegal extrajudicial action, he was still, according to the OV charter, a member of the alliance in good standing. Therefore, I restored his mask and remasked Seth as a regular alliance member, since he had no valid legal reason to be masked as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Since Petar had been guilty of clear violations of the OV charter, and had demonstrated a willingness to abuse his admin access, I also remasked him as a regular member until we could get things sorted out – that was not intended as a permanent step. Had I known how, I would have left him masked as MoD, but taken away his ACP rights, but I was new to the forums and didn't know how everything worked. After that, I went to bed (shortly after update). I laid there for a bit, thought about what was going on, and realized three things: 1.) I don’t like Tito, and I really don’t like having to defend him, even though he’s in the right. 2.) I don’t like Seth either, at least in his current state of mind. 3.) This whole deal is an immense fustercluck and it would be best to remove myself from it rather than get even muddier than I already was. That’s when I got back up out of bed and posted my resignation thread on the OV forums (which was subsequently deleted by parties other than myself, btw), and applied to join GUN again. If I had thought that my actions would be questionable in the slightest, I wouldn’t have joined another alliance until they were sorted out. As it turns out, Tito sent me an in game PM stating that he was still banned, as I had neglected to remove a secondary permission that would allow him to access the OV forums. Let me restate that for emphasis: Tito did not have access to the OV forums, therefore he could not make a copy of them. Note the time on Tito’s message – he didn’t send it to me until hours after I had already demasked myself as an admin on the OV forums, so there was no way I could have gone back and fixed his permissions. Again, let me state that all actions I took regarding masking were well within my rights at Minister of Internal Affairs, and that they were in compliance with the charter of OV as it stands. Petar and Seth had no legal justification for removing Tito without following the proper protocols, and were running roughshod over the rights of every OV member with their cavalier and callous disregard for the rule of law. The allegations that I “sabotaged” the forums, and that it required significant personal trouble from Sooner to restore them are completely false. If he has that much trouble fixing a simple masking issue, then he probably shouldn’t be root. In any event, this statement is just to clear the air and bring light to the facts of the situation. Regardless of my innocence, I accept the punishment as laid out by VE and OV, as I won’t see GUN brought into a war on my behalf. For all the naysayers that claim I was “hung out to dry,” you couldn’t be further from the truth. I agreed to this sentence, and was not coerced by GUN or NATO in any way. CN is a world of power politics, and might makes right here. It’s a simple matter of comparing NS, and it’s not fair to let an entire alliance get rolled just because Seth’s petty spite towards me. Even after this, I still bear no ill will towards OV, and would prefer if we could just all move on with our lives. I hope this clears things up for some of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thierra Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 ^ Holy text wall, batman. We do not wish to have an ally that would provide those wishing to cause us harm a hiding place. Also, had to read that line like six times. That was possibly the most awkward way you could construct that sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathcat Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Well said Zenergy. I think you deserve a reprieve from your situation. This doesn't surprise me in the least from my observations of seth's past actions. i wish all parties time to come to a better conclusion to this situation oo/ Zenergy, OV, GUN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) If this is the truth, and Zenergy has followed the letter of the law in the charter, then neither VE nor OV can make any claim to punish Zenergy and attempting to do so will be a gross violation of the sovereignty of Zenergy and his people. While it's commendable that he is willing sacrifice himself for the sake of GUN, that doesn't make imposing some sort of punishment on him right and I think both VE and OV should pause and ask themselves if this is in accordance with respectable conduct or even in pursuit of fair justice. Since Zenergy has already left the alliance in proper fashion, you have control, the issue is solved. Why not just let it be, especially when pursuing a vendetta -one that is not entirely certain in the minds of people if it is on justifiable grounds- may have serious impact on the reputations of all three parties. Edited October 18, 2009 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Wall of text If that is what happened then it seems that Schattenmann's assessment of the legality of both VE and SethB's actions is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aineshane Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Thx for sharing your side of the story and if it's true, Shame on Seth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finster Baby Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Having spent the last 20 minutes reading the last 4 pages of this thread, I find myself in the very uncomfortable position of having to agree with everything Schatt has said in this thread regarding the situation. At this rate, VE and OV should just get the shenanigans over with and merge, as its quite clear OV is a puppet of VE at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespassianus Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Funny story if it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Armageddon's coming soon, I'm agreeing with Schatt and Finster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boris Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 -snip- A very enlightening post, and it certainly shines a very bright light on the character of individuals such as SethB and some of the VE government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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