Announcement From The Echelon

[Starcraftmazter]

...That's not the point.

I was replying to someone who said, "forcible removal of government members sucks". As nobody is being removed, I thought I would correct this individual. May not be your point - but it was his, which is why I replied to him - and not you.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Starcraftmazter

[Heft]

Just because you gave up your power willingly doesn't mean anything. Just because you left for a new power willingly doesn't mean anything.

You can make excuses all you want, but that doesn't disregard from the fact you gave terms more brutal than these.

You can dress like a chicken, but you are still a cow.

I am a hippo, actually. And is this where we go over all the terms that I've signed off on? Because, well, I certainly never participated in anything that wasn't a community accepted norm or standard. Most of what I myself did was not brutal by any of the standards of the day, and lot of it isn't even brutal by today's standards. None of this is relevant to this discussion though, especially since most of the people complaining here are not me, and I've said comparatively little.

[Caliph]

I signed up for this war in December. Delta's already posted a timeline of how it happened, but for those who didn't read it, SF officially made the decision to oppose NPO at that time.The next war they brought to us, regardless of who they brought, we'd go all out.

For those who call these terms hypocritical, I will point you to the other fronts I am, or was, involved in. GDA, Echelon, AB and NPO. Those who've done the worst over the last few years have gotten the worst terms, the others have gotten off with relatively nothing.

To those of you out there who fought and participated in drafting the terms of surrender for NPO in GW1 who would now condemn me for ensuring that Echelon admits it's hand in starting, and losing, it - to you, I have the utmost of contempt. You had your chance to head off all that's happened and you dropped the ball. You allowed NPO to run rampant, to claim they won the war, and slaughter you en masse. I will not repeat your mistakes.

Echelon, with one group or another behind them, has been on me and my allies backs since the day I surrendered in UJW. They've thrown threats around both in public and in private, often with a large amount of leaders from their allies joining in to ensure I knew just who would com and step on my throat. One of these little strong-arm sessions with UmbraeNoctum and Caffiene directly led to ArGo disbanding into VE. The issue didn't involve neither Echelon, nor NPO. It concerned a dispute between OCUK and ArGo. Echelon had only recently joined 1V after abandoning BLEU, and that wasn't lost on me. Had I been at a computer (OOC Crap), we would've made our stand then.

To suggest they had any illusions what I would do - the insane, incredibly amounts of hellfire and death and brimstone and just exploding crap I would rain down on them endlessly, if they attacked me or one of my allies is to suggest they cannot read.

I've made it incredibly and unendingly clear on multiple occasions that I considered them due for a pounding few others have warranted before over the time I've spent on this game. They were never a minor hegemonic power to me, to the contrary, they were one of the main antagonists. If you add up the number of threats sent to the my allies over the last era of CN, only NPO can pass Echelon in sheer volume.

The terms as they stand can, and likely will be, be paid in under two months. They are not easy, and they will drain many nations to virtually nothing. That is the point; to reduce and cripple the military capacity of your enemy while increasing your own and giving yourself room to surpass them even farther as they rebuild.

I do not expect the swagger and mentality Caffeine and Tela embodied so well to have left with them, and what's more, I don't care either way. Echelon represents one of the most consistent opponents of the Global Order of Darkness. It's my job to ensure they are as weak as I humanly can.

I decided to join this side thinking it'd be a war. Not a revolution aimed at spreading free love and peace. I want no part of that. If I wanted that, I'd resign and join GPA. I wanted, and have fought, a war - with legitimate objectives and the backbone to see them carried out until either my opponents lay dead or I did. I have laid down terms I consider best suited to crippling them. Yes. That's what this is. Those who've done nothing have gotten nothing in terms, those who have done everything, have or will have everything taken in kind. Echelon is one of those.

I will not allow these $%&@ers to rise up again unless I have a hammer big enough to slam them back to the depths where they belong. They had their chance to be a force for good in the world, they had years, and they abused it. You reap what you sow, so sorry.

This.

Karma alliances aren't stupid, we all saw what NPO and the Hegemony had done, both publicly and privately. Many of us have our own grudges for various reasons, but that is besides the point. In war, your #1 goal is to ensure your enemy is unable to mount a credible offense against you in the near term future.

edit:

The restriction on those able to pay the terms should have been removed as they went through an additional month of war.

No. They were told the terms won't change if they stayed in for another month, and they haven't.

Perhaps the world will realize that terms won't change just because you fight longer. Fighting longer only makes the terms harder to pay off.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Caliph

[philp110]

Echelon did NOT start this war, and no amount of propaganda or dredging up past history will change that fundamental fact. All you've done is forced them to agree to a lie.

NPO made the first declaration and fired the first shot. Karma attacked us, Echelon then entered to defend us. There is no way in hell any amount of spin is going to turn that into Echelon starting the war.

Well said. I am amazed it was a term of surrender to force them to admit something so ridiculous.

[Caliph]

I don't give a damm who's driving. Karma needs to give up any claims to being better, higher, or more moral than the Hegemony side of this war. These harsh unwarranted terms have just ground that pretense into dust.

I expected harsh terms for the NPO, and wasn't disappointed. Eternal war is harsh as you can get. However Echelon doesn't deserve this crap for nothing more than honouring a treaty and entering a war to defend an ally.

Echelon was in the core of the Hegemony. All alliances in One Vision were. Echelon has done similar things in the past, supported similar things in the past, threw their weight around and throwing the names of their treaty partners around for years.

Echelon deserves harsh terms.

Besides, I distinticnly remember several alliances disbanding in a war two years ago who only entered due to them honoring their treaties. I remember anotehr alliance being forced to give up 1/3 of their tech, change their charter, and expel a valued member of their alliance due to them enterring a war by honoring their treaties.

The time to complain about "omg harsh terms for people enterring on treaties" is over. Echelon did the same, and now they are on the receiving end.

I do find it hilarious how most of you are crying "harsh terms" when Echelon gets them, but were strangely silent when other alliances were getting "harsh terms" from Echelon and her allies.

[Yggdrazil]

No amount of convoluted logic, rationalizations or past offenses make these terms just.

[AnCapistan]

We aren't forcing him to stop playing the game.

Your right the ebil Hegemony can make people stop playing the game by warring them.

Really...really now....

Look at Vox weren't most of their members sentenced to EZI? As I see all of them are still playing...hmm that's odd.

Yea it kinda is, you can't remove somebody from a position they are not occupying.

But you CAN ban them from taking up that position.

It's hard to spin violating an alliances sovereignty.

Honestly, I am disgusted.

Be extremely clear, I think Echelon have much to answer for, but not to the assembled throng of self appointed vigilantes riding under the banner of Karma.

Echelon did not start this war, the entered to defend an ally. Forcing an admission of this kind is pathetic, unworthy of your lofty ideals and contrary to the stated objectives of this campaign.

Banning people from government, I know how this one feels, honestly again, disgusting and pathetic.

The actual terms, you people need to take your collective head out of your collective fundamental orifice and have a good look around, mostly at yourselves and ponder some home truths. Right now you hold a tenuous grip on some power, the grip is tenuous because individually most of your alliances rely heavily on others to enjoy any kind of power at all. Enjoy the power trip while you can.

Instead of making a stand for a better world, you just set it back well into the dark ages. I frankly expected crap terms, but to see so many alliances benefit from the corruption of Karma and others suffer at its hand is simply too much for the camel to bear.

Hopefully the childish, pathetic and overbearing nature of some of you and yours has been sufficiently sated now.

tl:dr. way to win the battle and lose the war. NFI.

Well said.

[Haflinger]

They thought they were safe under NPO's boot.

Wait, is the argument here that Echelon thought they were safe when they entered the war?

We have no right to ban government members or members at all. We hated it when it was done to STA, we should hate it now. This is the part in the terms where I have issue.

I agree with this, except I don't like the 1K tech thing either.

That their side has folded quickly is another story, but nobody knew how this would play before the cancellations started rolling. It was a global conflict.

TPF knew, actually, quite some time before. And honestly, the night that everything went to hell, everyone who still wanted to join to defend NPO knew what the price was going to be.

Your intel is not as good as it could be.

Never in my time in CN have I seen so much !@#$%*ing about the terms imposed, especially by the alliances recieving the terms.

This war is unusual in that the winning side claimed before the war to be fighting against harsh terms, and to in fact have been doing a lot of !@#$%*ing themselves about terms imposed in the past. It is common in warfare on Planet Bob for losers to emulate the winning side.

But why is Caffine banned from gov?

Offended Superfriends a while back.

Also banning Caffine from gov is stupid. I think I will send him a recruitment message right now.

I wonder if Zig gets him.

I don't recall Echelon attacking OV.

Maybe bigwoody is an Echelon spy?

Regarding 11, take it for what it is (a joke). If it was serious, Echelon would've probably been declared on again.

Give it time, they've got reps to send first.

XFD If you honestly believe that you are quite ridiculous my good sir.

No government position does not equal eternal zero infrastructure.

Lots of people said it did for Chris Kaos.

Has anyone stopped and asked Echelon if they even WANTED Caffine back in government BEFORE getting worked up? I am under the impression that Echelon really didn't haggle much over this particular point.

Considering the history between Caffine1 and several of the alliances at war with Echelon, I can't imagine Echelon felt they had much haggle room. Especially since these were "final offer" terms.

[Starcraftmazter]

No amount of convoluted logic, rationalizations or past offenses make these terms just.

That is an extremely narrow minded viewpoint.

[Bernkastel]

Given how long and honorable Echelon fought and the number of members and NS they lost, they honestly deserve much less severe terms...

Term 10 reminds me of the time in the War of the Coalition when I believe it was Valhalla put a term for STA that Tygaland would be forced from STA gov. Wow, deja vu.

Karma = Hegemony 2.0 much?

Also, I agree with AlmightyGrub.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Balsamic Vinegar

[Xiphosis]

I do find it hilarious how most of you are crying "harsh terms" when Echelon gets them, but were strangely silent when other alliances were getting "harsh terms" from Echelon and her allies.

I understand why they are. In all seriousness, these terms are harsh. I said as much in my post, they will seriously mess up Echelons upper nations. I just said that was the point, that's all. The difference between what we're doing and what the Hegemony has done is a by-product of how long we've all been under a hegemony, but it basically breaks down to this:

Motive.

We cripple Echelon because they represent a threat, both to ourselves and to the future. They were part of the group that made people so afraid to speak out in public, that confined much of politics to backchannels and so fustrated everyone. The harsh terms they handed out were, typically, for lulz and for spite. Realistically, none of us were really capable of opposing them. I didn't have a single ally in this war that switched sides, and even I would've been hard pressed to take on even BLEU - much less Continuum.

However, the potential that Echelon can rebuild, that TPF or NPO can, is massive. GOD bounced back from getting ripped up in UJW pretty quick, and we had no wonders back then. That, alone, makes this situation a whole lot different. That everyone and anyone can discuss this crap in public, even if it means condemning me, makes this war worth it. I'm still going to do it how I feel it ought to be done though, as that is my right and one of the sole reasons I continue to play.

[Schattenmann]

I don't give a damm who's driving. Karma needs to give up any claims to being better, higher, or more moral than the Hegemony side of this war. These harsh unwarranted terms have just ground that pretense into dust.

I expected harsh terms for the NPO, and wasn't disappointed. Eternal war is harsh as you can get. However Echelon doesn't deserve this crap for nothing more than honouring a treaty and entering a war to defend an ally.

Echelon were the worst sort of sneering little toadies with pants way too big for themselves. They didn't get harsh terms for "just honoring a treaty" they got harsh terms because they've been the world's biggest smallest instigators for over a year. Now the chickens are come to roost.

The most hilarious thing is if they had even the slightest bit of backbone and stuck with Polar in their time of need, they'd be happy and fat now. But they were coward bullies and picked a new big brother that turned out not to be big enough.

The terms suck, but Echelon took them.

edit: And shut up about neverending war. If NPO wants the war to end they know where the door out is.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Kroknia]

The 1 tech to R&R is extortion! Down with GFL, Danny and Hawk!

Seriously, congrats on peace to all involved parties even though I think the terms a a bit harsh.

[fupresti]

My respect goes out to R&R for their not taking part in this extortion.

[Manetheren]

I expected better from you Karma Hegemony...

I mean, I realize you are the same people issuing rediculous terms just like in the big war last summer, but I thought at least you were sticking to your propaganda as well as you did last time.

[Heft]

I understand why they are. In all seriousness, these terms are harsh. I said as much in my post, they will seriously mess up Echelons upper nations. I just said that was the point, that's all. The difference between what we're doing and what the Hegemony has done is a by-product of how long we've all been under a hegemony, but it basically breaks down to this:

Motive.

We cripple Echelon because they represent a threat, both to ourselves and to the future. They were part of the group that made people so afraid to speak out in public, that confined much of politics to backchannels and so fustrated everyone. The harsh terms they handed out were, typically, for lulz and for spite. Realistically, none of us were really capable of opposing them. I didn't have a single ally in this war that switched sides, and even I would've been hard pressed to take on even BLEU - much less Continuum.

However, the potential that Echelon can rebuild, that TPF or NPO can, is massive. GOD bounced back from getting ripped up in UJW pretty quick, and we had no wonders back then. That, alone, makes this situation a whole lot different. That everyone and anyone can discuss this crap in public, even if it means condemning me, makes this war worth it. I'm still going to do it how I feel it ought to be done though, as that is my right and one of the sole reasons I continue to play.

That is a terrible motive and represents everything wrong with the hegemony. It is the same viewpoint from which nearly every action that people despise or disapprove of was born from.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Heft

[AnCapistan]

That is a terrible motive and represents everything wrong with the hegemony. It is the same viewpoint from which nearly every action that people despise or disapprove of was born from.

You'd think they'd learn that what goes around comes around.

Pity

Rebuild quickly Echelon.

[Merovingian]

Terms seem kinda harsh. I'm not sure Echelon deserves this...

[Nintenderek]

You know, I am all for the NPO peace terms, but these are kinda harsh considering Echelon was only honoring a treaty and did so on the first day of NPO being attacked, like they were suppose to do. Give harsh terms to NPO, however Echelon, while does deserve terms requiring them to pay and such, does not deserve terms this harsh.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Augusta Antonia]

I do find it hilarious how most of you are crying "harsh terms" when Echelon gets them, but were strangely silent when other alliances were getting "harsh terms" from Echelon and her allies.

When Karma came into existence they gave the impression of being an equalizer yes, but a FAIR equalizer. A champion, if you will. They were quick to point out the evil doings of what came to be known as the Hegemony (namely NPO and Echelon) and said they were here to make sure no one ever again suffered harshness such as they said was administered at the hands of the aforementioned alliances (respectively). Now Karma are the ones dealing out essentially the same punishments as those they condemned. It's not so much harsh as hypocritical. I believe THAT is the point... Just an observation...

[Kim Jaym Il]

A ban from gov is honestly less damaging than EZI.

"You think what we did is bad? Check out what we could have done!"

[Nizzle]

Just keep on posting GOD, I'm really enjoying seeing the real you.

I'll give someone a donation if they take the time to find posts from GOD's government complaining about harsh terms in the past. I want at least a handful displaying the opinion of GOD's current governments and more vocal members. I know someone out there can do it, and I eagerly await being able to throw their past tears right in their self-righteous faces.

Might makes right!

[In Spades]

I expected better from you Karma Hegemony...

I mean, I realize you are the same people issuing rediculous terms just like in the big war last summer, but I thought at least you were sticking to your propaganda as well as you did last time.

Um, no

Just for a point-of-reference, compare/contrast. Our reps don't even amount to NPO's cut the last go round.

As a caveat, it's funny how many NpO nations are arguing in Echelon's defense after they withdrew from BLEU before the last GW hit, and canceling the MADP shortly thereafter. Whether or not this is the same Echelon as it was during the Hegemony's era is a point of argument. But selective memory seems to be the norm around here.

[astronaut jones]

I understand why they are. In all seriousness, these terms are harsh. I said as much in my post, they will seriously mess up Echelons upper nations. I just said that was the point, that's all. The difference between what we're doing and what the Hegemony has done is a by-product of how long we've all been under a hegemony, but it basically breaks down to this:

Motive.

We cripple Echelon because they represent a threat, both to ourselves and to the future. They were part of the group that made people so afraid to speak out in public, that confined much of politics to backchannels and so fustrated everyone. The harsh terms they handed out were, typically, for lulz and for spite. Realistically, none of us were really capable of opposing them. I didn't have a single ally in this war that switched sides, and even I would've been hard pressed to take on even BLEU - much less Continuum.

However, the potential that Echelon can rebuild, that TPF or NPO can, is massive. GOD bounced back from getting ripped up in UJW pretty quick, and we had no wonders back then. That, alone, makes this situation a whole lot different. That everyone and anyone can discuss this crap in public, even if it means condemning me, makes this war worth it. I'm still going to do it how I feel it ought to be done though, as that is my right and one of the sole reasons I continue to play.

I hope everyone else can see what you just did, and you gained a whole new level of respect from me for it.

This man OWNED UP to what he did, and what he was doing, something that is entirely too rare around these parts, and I seriously applaud him for, essentially, not treating everyone like children and telling the damn truth of the matter.

Seriously, he's got my respect for that.

[Keres]

When Karma came into existence they gave the impression of being an equalizer yes, but a FAIR equalizer. A champion, if you will. They were quick to point out the evil doings of what came to be known as the Hegemony (namely NPO and Echelon) and said they were here to make sure no one ever again suffered harshness such as they said was administered at the hands of the aforementioned alliances (respectively). Now Karma are the ones dealing out essentially the same punishments as those they condemned. It's not so much harsh as hypocritical. I believe THAT is the point... Just an observation...

How about the fact that the whole idea of Karma is all about what goes around comes around? Echelon has been part of this whole Hegemony/1V... mess to say the least running around imposing harsher and PERMANENT terms (nothing in these OMGHARSHTERMS is for more than 3 months... other than the well deserved Caffine thing) that have led to alliances disbanding because they could act all tough... what if these "Harsh" terms was just the elevator coming back to them filled with wonderful people to bring them back down to earth with a swift kick...

We kicked you for a while now but you'll just get back up and start over again... the whole idea is for this not too... ((basically like dropping the Nuke on japan that ended WW2... they eventually got back up but calmed the $%&@ down))

Edited July 6, 2009 by keres666