Nueva Vida Treaty Announcement

[Samuel Houston]

It seems to me, Craig... that if you had simply taken Zog seriously when he approached you regarding the NAP, that this continuing dialogue would be superfluous. I approached your camerades about this prospect in November, and were excoriated for even suggesting such a thing as trying to work together in peace.

Understood that you guys have been burned in the past (ICP 2.0 example), but also taking into account the current state of affairs, the fact that Nordreich was effectively forced out from CN due to OOC attacks for what, almost a year, and that they are just starting out now with mostly new or beaten nations... I can see the allure of making a "Karmic response," but wouldn't that just be starting things all over again? It would be like a goofy self-fulfilling prophecy.

Has it been considered that previous incarnations of NoR/NoV simply had a thing going with making socialist/communist/anarchist/whatever alliances the bad guy? And that maybe a different playing field awaits for both sides?

My suggestion, as unwanted as it might be, is to go to the table with the new Nordreich and hammer it all out. I think you might be pleasantly surprised as to the result.

[Earogema]

I have never found myself so unattracted to communism in my life. Forcing people out of the game was the outdated and barbaric act of Pacificans and if I see the lolcommies try and do this to Nordreich I will fight them just as viciously and vigioursly as I fought NPO and I will be just as proud wearing the NoR banner as I was under the Pro Populi banner and the loljustice will feel the same.

0/ NoR

While I support this NoR, to be perfectly fair, NoR started it with the Commies.

[Samuel Houston]

While I support this NoR, to be perfectly fair, NoR started it with the Commies.

I don't think anyone disputes this.

[rabonnobar]

In the other thread I said something about leftism being pseudo-intellectual nitpicking. Which I feel is exactly what You're doing now Tomcat.

Quote from NoR'er criticizing leftism.

Cry more, please. Your tears please me,

Do something about it, Communist.

Been there, done that. It was a failed argument before. Not much changes with you people, does it?

OP: Excellent. o/

Quote from NV'er obviously bashing Communists, and using the famed "Do something about it," argument.

While I fully admit I am uninvolved and not allied to either 'side', reading through this thread it seems to me that NoR and NV are trying to paint themselves as the innocent people just trying and struggling to start a new life in a cold, dark, and hostile world; and furthermore, attempting to make the Commies appear as the aggressors, or the aggressives. I applaud the Communists for their hesitance to accept NoR and for their obvious diligence and defensiveness; given history, they are right to do so. NoR/NV need to ensure that none of their members, IMO, give off any bad signals (note: the above are bad signals), for I believe the Commies are just and proper in interpreting these things exponentially more dangerous than they would be coming from an alliance other than Nordreich.

Again, allied with neither side, just calling it as I see it. Though I have always tended to root for the Commies in the past, heh.

Also, before people quote the part(s) in which I say I am a third party and criticize me for giving my opinion: this is simply of great interest to me as I always found the whole right-left events to be intriguing, thus I keep finding myself drawn to this thread.

Edited May 9, 2009 by rabonnobar

[Captain Flinders]

Also, before people quote the part(s) in which I say I am a third party and criticize me for giving my opinion: this is simply of great interest to me as I always found the whole right-left events to be intriguing, thus I keep finding myself drawn to this thread.

Your opinion doesn't matter GTFO!

[rabonnobar]

Your opinion doesn't matter GTFO!

Knew it'd happen, haha.

Wait, are you involved yourself, good sir?

[Captain Flinders]

Knew it'd happen, haha.

Wait, are you involved yourself, good sir?

I am clearly a third party observer with too many opinions and an ear to the ground. Basically I'm irrelevant. Should I tell myself to GTFO or will somebody do that for me?

[rabonnobar]

I am clearly a third party observer with too many opinions and an ear to the ground. Basically I'm irrelevant. Should I tell myself to GTFO or will somebody do that for me?

I think you know the answer.

Or not. Free speech ftw, amirite?

[Comrade Craig]

It seems to me, Craig... that if you had simply taken Zog seriously when he approached you regarding the NAP, that this continuing dialogue would be superfluous. I approached your camerades about this prospect in November, and were excoriated for even suggesting such a thing as trying to work together in peace.

Understood that you guys have been burned in the past (ICP 2.0 example), but also taking into account the current state of affairs, the fact that Nordreich was effectively forced out from CN due to OOC attacks for what, almost a year, and that they are just starting out now with mostly new or beaten nations... I can see the allure of making a "Karmic response," but wouldn't that just be starting things all over again? It would be like a goofy self-fulfilling prophecy.

Has it been considered that previous incarnations of NoR/NoV simply had a thing going with making socialist/communist/anarchist/whatever alliances the bad guy? And that maybe a different playing field awaits for both sides?

My suggestion, as unwanted as it might be, is to go to the table with the new Nordreich and hammer it all out. I think you might be pleasantly surprised as to the result.

I'm open to reparations. None have been offered.

-Craig

[Kroknia]

Quote from NoR'er criticizing leftism.

Quote from NV'er obviously bashing Communists, and using the famed "Do something about it," argument.

While I fully admit I am uninvolved and not allied to either 'side', reading through this thread it seems to me that NoR and NV are trying to paint themselves as the innocent people just trying and struggling to start a new life in a cold, dark, and hostile world; and furthermore, attempting to make the Commies appear as the aggressors, or the aggressives. I applaud the Communists for their hesitance to accept NoR and for their obvious diligence and defensiveness; given history, they are right to do so. NoR/NV need to ensure that none of their members, IMO, give off any bad signals (note: the above are bad signals), for I believe the Commies are just and proper in interpreting these things exponentially more dangerous than they would be coming from an alliance other than Nordreich.

Again, allied with neither side, just calling it as I see it. Though I have always tended to root for the Commies in the past, heh.

Also, before people quote the part(s) in which I say I am a third party and criticize me for giving my opinion: this is simply of great interest to me as I always found the whole right-left events to be intriguing, thus I keep finding myself drawn to this thread.

I think this is what got me going in these threads. It was mainly after some commies went "Do we really have to watch our backs and see an alliance that wronged us many times in the past try and out do us again?" and it turned into somewhat "Do something about it."

I'm open to reparations. None have been offered.

-Craig

This was the other reason I felt it was reasonable to be upset. Had there been talks of real repairing of relations and sorrow over past actions rather than an NAP, it would have went over very well with me.

P.S. if there are reparations I could use 50 tech for my part in St. Patty's Day

[Owned-You]

Quote from NoR'er criticizing leftism.

Quote from NV'er obviously bashing Communists, and using the famed "Do something about it," argument.

While I fully admit I am uninvolved and not allied to either 'side', reading through this thread it seems to me that NoR and NV are trying to paint themselves as the innocent people just trying and struggling to start a new life in a cold, dark, and hostile world; and furthermore, attempting to make the Commies appear as the aggressors, or the aggressives. I applaud the Communists for their hesitance to accept NoR and for their obvious diligence and defensiveness; given history, they are right to do so. NoR/NV need to ensure that none of their members, IMO, give off any bad signals (note: the above are bad signals), for I believe the Commies are just and proper in interpreting these things exponentially more dangerous than they would be coming from an alliance other than Nordreich.

Again, allied with neither side, just calling it as I see it. Though I have always tended to root for the Commies in the past, heh.

Also, before people quote the part(s) in which I say I am a third party and criticize me for giving my opinion: this is simply of great interest to me as I always found the whole right-left events to be intriguing, thus I keep finding myself drawn to this thread.

Yes, Germanic Republic does not like communists...but he also isn't a member of the Vidian Government...so he shouldn't be seen as speaking for them. Furthermore, NV is not new...at all. It was founded over 2 years ago on April 1st, 2007...I was the founder so I know what I speak of concerning this matter. During this time period, NV was formed from the splinters of a fractured disbanded alliance, in which case we needed protection. Therefore we appealed to our former allies whom at the time were the only alliance we had any real contact with prior to expanding our Foreign Affairs. Whereupon, NoR/NoV took us under her wing and guided us providing to us numerous assistance in economic and military affairs as well as monetary capital. Ultimately resulting in us becoming a member of there protectorate bloc known as the Hanseatic League. Thus our alliances grew very close due to our earlier bonds. Eventually NV surpassed NoR/NoV in NS and became her caretaker . Basically, my point is you implied Nueva Vida is some new upstart alliance looking for protection. When it's the opposite, Nueva Vida is a seasoned alliance well aware of her actions, simply giving the same group of people whom allowed her to prosper in her early days with the same gift repaid in full.

Not to mention, economically speaking...it works out for both parties. Anywho, I felt I needed to clear that up as your statement implied a factual error.

(OOC - I should go to bed.)

[Edit - Yeah...no more posting when your running on 3 hrs of sleep...Because you end up killing the English language, and grammar.]

Edited May 9, 2009 by Owned-You

[Stonewall14]

I have never found myself so unattracted to communism in my life. Forcing people out of the game was the outdated and barbaric act of Pacificans and if I see the lolcommies try and do this to Nordreich I will fight them just as viciously and vigioursly as I fought NPO and I will be just as proud wearing the NoR banner as I was under the Pro Populi banner and the loljustice will feel the same.

0/ NoR

Here here...I second that declaration! I am 100% in support of our allies NV and am glad to see NoR back and lol @ commies saying your "bad guys" and can't play...

[Kroknia]

Here here...I second that declaration! I am 100% in support of our allies NV and am glad to see NoR back and lol @ commies saying your "bad guys" and can't play...

It isn't that they can't play, it is that they have yet to give us a reason why they shouldn't be the enemy. Offereing reps, having asked for this kind of treaty with the commies would have both been good ways to do things. This is unless you think the NPO should get white peace for their past actions. I don't think that is how you think, so reasonable terms would be reasonable for the offenses committed. This has not been done or offered.

[hizzy]

It isn't that they can't play, it is that they have yet to give us a reason why they shouldn't be the enemy. Offereing reps, having asked for this kind of treaty with the commies would have both been good ways to do things. This is unless you think the NPO should get white peace for their past actions. I don't think that is how you think, so reasonable terms would be reasonable for the offenses committed. This has not been done or offered.

So, everyone needs to give you a reason why they're not the enemy?

How about simply stating that you have nothing to worry about from this camp, and my personal veto on anything that would be even a slightly aggressive move towards the Left (or any other alliance in the game)?

Nordreich has no quarrels. Period.

If you want to make them your enemy and give them a quarrel, then I doubt anything they do (or for that matter, don't do) is going to change that. It's been 9 pages so far and not a single person has shown me why this group of people can not be trusted. The only thing I've seen is crap posts from leftists, and crap posts from NoR supporters, including a guy in my own department (dealt with, apologies), and frankly none of you are doing yourselves any favours.

[Captain Fatbeard]

While I support this NoR, to be perfectly fair, NoR started it with the Commies.

Not this NoR.

[Kroknia]

So, everyone needs to give you a reason why they're not the enemy?

How about simply stating that you have nothing to worry about from this camp, and my personal veto on anything that would be even a slightly aggressive move towards the Left (or any other alliance in the game)?

Nordreich has no quarrels. Period.

If you want to make them your enemy and give them a quarrel, then I doubt anything they do (or for that matter, don't do) is going to change that. It's been 9 pages so far and not a single person has shown me why this group of people can not be trusted. The only thing I've seen is crap posts from leftists, and crap posts from NoR supporters, including a guy in my own department (dealt with, apologies), and frankly none of you are doing yourselves any favours.

To the first question, alliances that forced mine into disbandment, yes. They are an enemy when they come back from the grave and do nothing but say "oops sorry. Now moving on"

To be fair though, Zog was doing okay until this treaty came out, then he went to the "Do something about it" argument and all feelings of any remorse towards past indiscretions vanished. The Nordreichers that are egging us on, even if it is only a couple, do terrible damage and make it clear that hostility is there. You can look at my posts in the other thread. I didn't say a thing until a NoR member made groundless insults against a clearly irate Tomcat. A simple "You can not accept our apology, but we're sorry nonetheless" would have been a much better situation rather than shots at the entire left for one nations fairly justified irritation and distrust with a long history supporting it. Yes, people weren't happy. This wasn't done nearly as diplomatically as it could have been. SOME NoR members have made it clear they regret nothing. There is reason here. Some of NoR has been impeccable and I am inclined to forgive poor diplomatic form on their reentry, but other members should have already been tossed and be on their way to ZI IMO. They don't have the ability to have anyone in the AA Nordreich maintaining hostility against those angry simply because NoR was so incredibly hostile and aggressive in the past and don't want to deal with that again.

You're ability to drop this treaty should they become aggressive is good. Doesn't mean NoR can't move on once you've let them establish themselves again back to the old ways which many have glorified, liking the NoR-Commie rivalry(OOC done in an OOC thread). What this does is gives them the ability to reassert themselves and frankly, I don't trust NV to be looking out for the good of the communists in the game. Especially not an NV run by a former Nordreicher. That doesn't mean you're looking to hurt the communists, you're just looking out for what is best for NV your friends and your allies which now includes NoR. That is what you should do and what anyone would do, but it certainly isn't something that makes me, and clearly others, happy. It is no guarantee that NoR, once reasserted, wont go back to their old ways, including bringing you along for the ride(I assume an MDP will be the minimum at the end of this endeavor unless they mess up terribly). It is clear they are proud of their history and becoming less repentant by the hour and using I think the exact same taunts as they were in the past for us lolcommies to do something about it. If need be, I'll get you the long list in the morning.

You can be angry that I don't agree with your choice. It doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with it. Initially I was also acting in a manner I shouldn't have. My apologies. I'm at least trying to send the clear and evident messages as to why there is serious distrust and anger about this.

Preemptive edit: I am very sleepy and there will be basic English mistakes in this post.

[hizzy]

To the first question, alliances that forced mine into disbandment, yes. They are an enemy when they come back from the grave and do nothing but say "oops sorry. Now moving on"

To be fair though, Zog was doing okay until this treaty came out, then he went to the "Do something about it" argument and all feelings of any remorse towards past indiscretions vanished. The Nordreichers that are egging us on, even if it is only a couple, do terrible damage and make it clear that hostility is there. You can look at my posts in the other thread. I didn't say a thing until a NoR member made groundless insults against a clearly irate Tomcat. A simple "You can not accept our apology, but we're sorry nonetheless" would have been a much better situation rather than shots at the entire left for one nations fairly justified irritation and distrust with a long history supporting it. Yes, people weren't happy. This wasn't done nearly as diplomatically as it could have been. SOME NoR members have made it clear they regret nothing. There is reason here. Some of NoR has been impeccable and I am inclined to forgive poor diplomatic form on their reentry, but other members should have already been tossed and be on their way to ZI IMO. They don't have the ability to have anyone in the AA Nordreich maintaining hostility against those angry simply because NoR was so incredibly hostile and aggressive in the past and don't want to deal with that again.

You're ability to drop this treaty should they become aggressive is good. Doesn't mean NoR can't move on once you've let them establish themselves again back to the old ways which many have glorified, liking the NoR-Commie rivalry(OOC done in an OOC thread). What this does is gives them the ability to reassert themselves and frankly, I don't trust NV to be looking out for the good of the communists in the game. Especially not an NV run by a former Nordreicher. That doesn't mean you're looking to hurt the communists, you're just looking out for what is best for NV your friends and your allies which now includes NoR. That is what you should do and what anyone would do, but it certainly isn't something that makes me, and clearly others, happy. It is no guarantee that NoR, once reasserted, wont go back to their old ways, including bringing you along for the ride(I assume an MDP will be the minimum at the end of this endeavor unless they mess up terribly). It is clear they are proud of their history and becoming less repentant by the hour and using I think the exact same taunts as they were in the past for us lolcommies to do something about it. If need be, I'll get you the long list in the morning.

You can be angry that I don't agree with your choice. It doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with it. Initially I was also acting in a manner I shouldn't have. My apologies. I'm at least trying to send the clear and evident messages as to why there is serious distrust and anger about this.

Preemptive edit: I am very sleepy and there will be basic English mistakes in this post.

Zog's "do something about it" was in response to all the foot pounding people have been doing. It's pretty childish. Give him a mature and serious post, and he'll reply in kind, I'm sure.

First off, you claim you don't trust a Nueva Vida run by a former Nordreicher. I assume you're talking about me, although I don't run the alliance. The Emperor is MagicalBricks (see the sig on the treaty), and he is an ex-GDA'er (but I guess nobody's perfect ).

Secondly, you claim you don't think we're looking out for the good of commies on planet Bob. Frankly, you're right. I couldn't care less about you guys. If somebody else has a bone to pick with you and attacks The Internationals for some retarded reasons, it won't affect my life one way or the other.

What I do care about is Nordreich's future. Attacking commies over ideological differences, or allowing the same internal issues to corrupt them from the inside out will ruin them, and it's a liability to us as well. So, being the selfish prick that I am, I'll do my best to avert these situations.

Whether we sign an MDP in the future or not (frankly the idea hasn't even been brought it, we're far from it), that does not mean we will support any asshattery.

Frankly, the whole pride and collectiveness of Nordreich is only precipitated by all the crap you guys throw at them. You have a small group of people who want their own community to thrive, and here you find people circling around with veiled threats and hints of impending danger. For starters, all this does is bring the community closer together. You can keep your "bad move"s "disappointed"s and loud coughs to yourselves.

[Tygaland]

Pretty sure he's with the Viridian Entente dude.

I've not been here overlong but I've found Nueva Vida open to working with folks, I'm kinda surprised that a treaty with them and NoR has to be derailed by a left-right slapfight.

If this is indicative of the attitude of ODN more broadly, I am deeply amused, and predict hilarious Hizzy fits in the future.

Don't mind Pingu, he just saw someone making fun of commies and tripped over his dick coming to their rescue. Ignoring the fact it was his beloved commies threatening an alliance for no reason.

Best of luck to NV and Nordreich with their protectorate arrangement.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Tygaland

[Beauty]

Mexicans and Germans, Doin' it right

Congradulations to the both of you.

o/ Nueva Vida

o/ Nordreich

[Venizelos]

there are... uh... better ways to get tech off of NoR nations

anyways, good luck with this NV.

[zzzptm]

[ooc]ooooh, if this leads to a lot of nukes flying for Christmas, I AM SO THERE! We're not looking for a war, but if one comes our way, we'll take it. Win or lose, NV fights.[/ooc]

[one more ooc comment]Hey, all you Communists, remember: Mexico gave shelter to Trotsky when no other nation in the world would. And before you Stalinists howl, remember that Rivera and Kahlo were Stalinists, Kahlo more so. And before you Maoists pitch a fit, look at the Zapatista rebellion and how it is NOT a major battleground in Mexico. There's a real-life example of a nation, Mexico, being able to offer all kinds of people not only second chances, but extended dance remix second chances. We in Nueva Vida have that attitude, even though not all of us are Aztec by birth: we are Aztec by choice.[/ooc]

[ic for the rest of the post...]

If the members of The International did not want to hear harsh words coming their way, they should not have said harsh words of their own. Nobody in the NV/NoR treaty wanted to see a war come of this, and the leaders were under the impression that NoR would start peacefully and not be the way it was before. Yes, it is getting together with old friends, but they are old, GOOD friends. Positive influences and upstanding world citizens that are here to help guide and foster better days for all of Planeta Roberto.

It is also clear that NV's allies are prepared to vouch for NV and its actions. They do not do so lightly. They place their names on the line, as well: Mushroom Kingdom and Siberian Tiger Alliance are not under anyone's thumb. They are respected in general for their probity. If they can lend their aura in some way to this enterprise, that should be indicative of how much effort will go into NoR *not* making the same set of mistakes.

Keep a close watch on them, as you feel you must. We in Nueva Vida shall be as vigilant as anyone, for we desire peaceful growth. We accept wars when Huitzilopochtli blesses us with them, but we always desire peace.

[Tom Litler]

Something tells me that the only reason the communists are getting so angry at this is not because the Nordreich is "re-creating the same ties as before" but because this treaty has thwarted a certain someone's plans for an easy curbstomp in the near future.

[Tromp]

Good luck to NV and Nordreich.

[hizzy]

Something tells me that the only reason the communists are getting so angry at this is not because the Nordreich is "re-creating the same ties as before" but because this treaty has thwarted a certain someone's plans for an easy curbstomp in the near future.

I think it's safe to say that regardless of an economic treaty between old friends, Nordreich would not be an easy curbstomp. Friends don't need a piece of paper to defend eachother from that sort of BS.

[kingzog]

To be fair though, Zog was doing okay until this treaty came out, then he went to the "Do something about it" argument ...

Where was this?