In Response to Mr. Brookbank

[Tom Litler]

Hey, here's a thought: "OOC attack" or not, what was said on IRC was said on IRC in a non-game endorsed channel. The admin and moderation team has no jurisdiction over what happens over forums or IRC channels other than the CN forums and an official Cyber Nations channel that they may or may not have set up (I am not sure if one exists). Furthermore, stop crying about the "death" remark because it is a straw man argument. Players being kept out of the game for good as they are is what most concerns me, personally.

For yet another example, a "good" person called an "evil" person a whore, said it was IC, and he got off 100% free.

I believe I know what you are alluding to.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Tom Litler

[Mongrel]

I just don't get how JB's post (through Starfox as Proxy) is banned but a response and discussion of it is somehow relevent.

For those that haven't seen it:

http://ruiningthegame.com/jbmirror/

[Goose]

Really, Bama? IRON are big boys ans girls. They are more than capable of defending themselves. To focus on the tiny portion of the post that may or may not be libelous really ignores the greater issue of the thread, not to mention is hardly worth mentioning. Your opinion regarding IRON as an ally is of value to others, as it gives someone else's perspective of them, but your decrying of the allegedly libelous statement from Jonathon is laughable. As Finster is an in-game persona, there is no damage to the real life person. Unless you are accusing Jonathon of In Character Libel. In which case it is even more laughable.

Simply realize that there really isn't a boundary between in character and out of character, except if you actually start to post about the 'forums', 'game', 'topic', and any other smattering of 'bad' words in an in-character forum. I don't mean to decry the moderators, as they do a good job of a difficult situation, where the player determined in character and out of character boundary shifts with the gentle breeze to suit the powers that be as needed.

/me dons his tinfoil hat

We all know that IRON is only nice to TOOL at the orders of NPO.

/tinfoil

[Freelancer]

I just don't get how JB's post (through Starfox as Proxy) is banned but a response and discussion of it is somehow relevant.

For those that haven't seen it:

http://ruiningthegame.com/jbmirror/

I'd like to know that myself, I'd like to thank you Mongrel for sharing that link as I didn't get a chance to see it.

To our viewing public, I would highly recommend reading JB's opps I mean Starfoxes deleted post, its quite the article..

[SpiderJerusalem]

I just don't get how JB's post (through Starfox as Proxy) is banned but a response and discussion of it is somehow relevent.

For those that haven't seen it:

http://ruiningthegame.com/jbmirror/

Thank you for bringing this forward.

Apart from the fact that I am disagreeing with NPO and IRON in this matter, I just have one question.

In JB's post and in other posts I have seen on this forum, there is talk about an "NPO script". Is there any chance to get a short description of this script and why it is / is not breaking the rules?

Thanks

[Machiabelly]

There's a such thing as taking things out I context, but if you look at the quote, and if you consider that this is a game with war, it's obvious that no one could mistake that for an RL threat.

I'm going to bed. I'll respond to some of the posts in the morning, but please understand that I can't get to them all.

-Bama

You can't know how everyone will take something, that is how harrassment suits happen all the time. If he felt it was OOC, then there is no libel. Plus, Finster is an IC persona, and can't be libeled.

[Vilien]

Why the largest alliances in the game need to prevent good, active players from playing the game is beyond me. It only shows weakness on your part.

[SpoiL]

I highly doubt FinsterBaby meant that ooc. I couldn't know. Finster could be a luneball for all I know

Political correctness is fail for a game people. Lets not make people have to specify that they want your nation dead and not the person..

[Bob Janova]

This thread is a pure exercise in misdirection/distraction. 'Hey let's defame JB some more so nobody notices that he actually said a lot of worthwhile stuff'. Finster's comment is ambiguous and could be taken to be OOC, although I personally think JB is exaggerating its importance. But for you to claim that JB is OOC attacking Finster is simply ridiculous.

The important issue is clearly that JB is prevented from playing the game by people like Finster, as well as the overactive paranoia of Ironchef.

[Mongrel]

In JB's post and in other posts I have seen on this forum, there is talk about an "NPO script". Is there any chance to get a short description of this script and why it is / is not breaking the rules?

That's something I'd like to hear more about myself, as I've heard rumors for quite some time now.

[KingSuck]

Just a note regarding JB's thread, TPF isn't in duckroll

[Bob Janova]

I have never been in the NPO but I can imagine what their script does, as Grämlins has a similar one. It takes information from the CN pages that you navigate to and does intelligent things with it. We specifically clarified this with Admin before going ahead with it and as long as you don't automatically screen scrape or write a bot to play for you, it is permitted.

[Max Rockatansky]

I see the point Bama is trying to make here and I read Jonathan's post before it got deleted, log dump and all. The way I feel about it is this:

As far as I know there are three ways to alter perception...

1) Persuasion

2) By force

3) Recreational chemicals which are illegal in most countries.

And while I feel that Jonathan may have had a valid point to make somewhere in there it was lost in the shuffle. I don't agree with P-ZI. I've been on a P-ZI list and am paying for it now with my latest re-roll. Nobody made me, it's just something I felt I needed to do because I wronged a man I've come to admire and respect who didn't deserve it( don't ask me what it was, the people who need to know do and we'll leave it at that. It's nobody else's business.). Past feelings aside, I made a choice. Everyone has a choice.

I wasn't there when Jonathan had his conversations that took place in the log dumps so I won't even bother pretending to know what exactly went on. In the end, in these situations it always comes down to "he said, she said" and people will believe whomever echos their own pre-conceived sentiment. More often than not they will stand by that sentiment, because to do otherwise "shows weakness" and an " inability to stand by your convictions" which will bring about other forms of criticism and sometimes ridicule. Deny it all you want but it's true( more often than not).

Either way it doesn't change the fact that the problem is between Jonathan and those he feels( in his perception, justifiably) wronged him, and it's very difficult to intelligently argue against that. As it is HIS perception of his own particular situation. This is a matter that I feel is best settled among those involved through civil and intelligent discourse(If such a thing is possible between both parties, if not then I really don't know what to say.).

In the end, given enough time perhaps the situation will resolve itself once cooler heads prevail. Believe it or not, it does happen. Even here. It has before and it will again if people let it.

[Dochartaigh]

I have never been in the NPO but I can imagine what their script does, as Grämlins has a similar one. It takes information from the CN pages that you navigate to and does intelligent things with it. We specifically clarified this with Admin before going ahead with it and as long as you don't automatically screen scrape or write a bot to play for you, it is permitted.

my ignorance of scripts and the like is gonna show, what is a screen scrape?

also, i do think we should be focusing more on why NPO and IRON still want JB on the EZI terms without at least being decent enough to list various reasons as to why he is not being let off. Personally, i find it ridiculous under the circumstances especially since GGA and Valhalla both let him off and IRON is only keeping him on there due to NPO.

[Bob Janova]

Well it might not be the technical term, but I was referring to a link follower, i.e. you point it at an alliance list and it looks at all the nations for you without you doing anything. That isn't allowed.

[Timmmehhh]

I am more worried about Ironchef claiming "Gremlins are pushing for war". For every independent player it is obvious that Gremlins are a peaceful alliance, and we all know that the conflict with GGA was not caused by them but started by GGA first. Why is she spreading these rumors?

[Electron Sponge]

I am more worried about Ironchef claiming "Gremlins are pushing for war". For every independent player it is obvious that Gremlins are a peaceful alliance, and we all know that the conflict with GGA was not caused by them but started by GGA first. Why is she spreading these rumors?

Because that's what they think in Continuum leadership.

[shahenshah]

[23:14] <Jonathan_Brookbank> NpO is ran by the NPO controlled government.

That line summed up the credibility of his entire post and how his post seemed more of a cleverly disguised propaganda Vox piece rather than a plea.

Nothing more here to discuss, GG.

Edited March 22, 2009 by shahenshah

[Vilien]

Because that's what they think in Continuum leadership.

I thought they thought that the Continuum was a shadow of its former self.

[Earogema]

That line summed up the credibility of his entire post and how his post seemed more of a cleverly disguised propaganda Vox piece rather than a plea.

Nothing more here to discuss, GG.

Yeah, I thought him being a former GGA tri means that all his GGA info was irrelevant too.

Seriously? Do you even bother? You find ONE flaw, and that's why the ENTIRETY of his post is discarded? I dare say I should reject all of Aristotle's teachings, because he was wrong A LOT.

[Mechanus]

Then the attacks on the Initiative forums during the Unjust War were within the context of the game. And so was Yaridovich's story.

The "evil" (read: Enemies of the NPO) side's OOC attacks lead to war, PZI, EZI, and eventually people being run from the game. The "good" (read: NPO and allies) side make the same attacks, but they are always entirely in character. For yet another example, a "good" person called an "evil" person a whore, said it was IC, and he got off 100% free. If an "evil" person were to do this, the "good" victim would cry and cry until a war is started and the "evil" person is run out of the game.

It's a double standard that's sickening. Either let everyone off or go after everyone. Don't pull the !@#$%^&* that happens time and time again.

Quoting this as I wonder why such standards continue to exist as well.

[Kowalski]

Maybe I see the whole ZI/PZI/EZI thing too simply. I am only an outsider and although I will use his name I don't know JB and this is not a judgment on his character. These are just my observations.

JB has done things in the past that have lead to him being put on PZI/EZI (which and by who seems unclear), including things that he should have been aware of before doing them. It doesn't matter if it was only for four days and you didn't consider yourself a founder, perhaps the person who declared you as a founder to the public should have to answer for that. If it isn't an issue for them to have to answer then the "not a founder" argument has no relevance regarding NPO/IRON either.

Due to JB's past actions and current behaviour there are obviously alliances that would still consider him to be a threat in the future, so it's in their best interests not to let him get in that position. While I wouldn't agree with EZI for in-game crimes it's understandable that the current range of Vox activities and JB's ties with Vox would mean that said alliances may consider that that off-site or OOC activities could be used by JB if he were to return. In short, they can't trust him.

Whether JB deserved to be put in his current PZI/EZI situation and whether he continues to be will always be a matter of opinion, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that i) very few people know all the circumstances surrounding the situation (no matter how many logs are posted), ii) the process could probably have been halted at any point down the line by a change in behaviour, and iii) asking someone to post this sort of stuff isn't going to help.

Nobody's saying JB can't play CN, just that he can't play it on his terms. And for all those who will say why should JB be forced to play the game on someone else's terms, I guess that's what happens when you continually provoke the biggest two alliances in the game. You lose. It seems as though JB has given up his right to play the game on his terms in the eyes of the strongest alliances in the game. Either come back as JB and sit in peace mode or come back in secret and hope to hold his ego in check and resist the urge to reveal himself.

Whether JB feels he is right or wrong is, unfortunately, largely irrelevant. Either he is prepared to do what it takes to get his PZI/EZI removed (or get around it) or he has no interest in returning to the game now but will continue to help Vox chip away at NPO and hope that he can triumphantly return when those who have passed sentence on him are no longer in a position to enforce it.

[JayOvfEnnay]

Really, Bama? IRON are big boys ans girls. They are more than capable of defending themselves. To focus on the tiny portion of the post that may or may not be libelous really ignores the greater issue of the thread, not to mention is hardly worth mentioning. Your opinion regarding IRON as an ally is of value to others, as it gives someone else's perspective of them, but your decrying of the allegedly libelous statement from Jonathon is laughable. As Finster is an in-game persona, there is no damage to the real life person. Unless you are accusing Jonathon of In Character Libel. In which case it is even more laughable.

Simply realize that there really isn't a boundary between in character and out of character, except if you actually start to post about the 'forums', 'game', 'topic', and any other smattering of 'bad' words in an in-character forum. I don't mean to decry the moderators, as they do a good job of a difficult situation, where the player determined in character and out of character boundary shifts with the gentle breeze to suit the powers that be as needed.

/me dons his tinfoil hat

We all know that IRON is only nice to TOOL at the orders of NPO.

/tinfoil

This and Janova's post are exactly what I was trying to say, just said a bit better Glad to know I'm not alone.

[cowen70]

I can understand people not wanting the JB character back in the game, I still remember him entering my IRC room to tell us we'd all burn along with various other slurs, insults and general ''your all NPO pwns1111'' messages.

I would want to take every measure to stop him entering my alliance but wouldn't want to pursue him across rerolls. We once had to give up a very very good member who had done some things to earn himself EZI but was proving to be an unbiased dedicated government member with no plans beyond furthering the alliance he was in at present.

It was a shame the petition got closed I would have signed it.

[astronaut jones]

I can understand people not wanting the JB character back in the game, I still remember him entering my IRC room to tell us we'd all burn along with various other slurs, insults and general ''your all NPO pwns1111'' messages.

I would want to take every measure to stop him entering my alliance but wouldn't want to pursue him across rerolls. We once had to give up a very very good member who had done some things to earn himself EZI but was proving to be an unbiased dedicated government member with no plans beyond furthering the alliance he was in at present.

It was a shame the petition got closed I would have signed it.

As a player, Jonathan Brookbank is essentially dead, and he needs to consider starting from scratch.

On the other hand, EZI/PZI is a joke, and is only used as a means to silence so called "undesirable people" from actually having a say and being relevant to the game. No longer is EZI/PZI used because someone actually did something to that alliance that warranted such an action, but rather it seems people are added as a means to keep them down for no reason at all, other than to keep them quiet.

What did Jonathan Brookbank ever do to these alliances that still have him on PZI/EZI? I'm guessing he never did a damn thing. It's a joke, a complete joke.