New Sith Order Declaration

[Neo Uruk]

Franz doesn't set policy for the entire Doomsphere and you should know that, Dajobo.

[Dajobo]

I agree Rey but I really was being genuine with what I wrote. I didn't see anyone denying the logs validity, just people saying LH shouldn't have shown anyone.
Franz doesn't set the policy but that doesn't mean what he said was incorrect.

[The Zigur]

Help me catch up here because I've been away a few days.

DK or the wider Doom Sphere regard NG as nothing more than a meatsheild.
The "logdump" was actually said to LH so is his own log do do with as he chose.
There appears (I may have missed it) to be no dispute about the truthfulness of the log.

Honestly, correct me if I have misunderstood the situation here because I'm genuinely not across this and trying to understand.
As it looks to me, there was no spying and no lying and no accusation of such.
You state "I'm sorry Lord Hitchcock but a log dump is a very traditional casus belli" but I kinda don't see that. The log dumps traditionally regarded as a CB have been acquired by dubious means or untrue.

A senate sanction for a true statement on information gained in an above board manner seems pretty inappropriate to me. The sanctions on the blue sphere at least were stated as "NADC request"
Where was NADC wronged in all of this?

 

Glad to see you back Dajobo, but we might disagree slightly on this one.

 

Now, we have had many rather honest IRC chats in the past, and that's something I would never betray, I am known for being someone people can talk to without them worrying about being snitched on. So I have a rather low opinion of the log dump from a moral perspective; it represented a malicious breach of trust that was not provoked in any form by DK (the logs were posted in a PIAT announcement).

 

Generally speaking such a log dump might be understandable if DK had made an announcement back-stabbing LH, but that wasn't the case. It was irrational and poorly thought out, and a serious error of judgment... I had formerly been sympathizing with him, but that set off alarm bells to me.

[White Chocolate]

Help me catch up here because I've been away a few days.

Honestly, correct me if I have misunderstood the situation here because I'm genuinely not across this and trying to understand.
As it looks to me, there was no spying and no lying and no accusation of such.
You state "I'm sorry Lord Hitchcock but a log dump is a very traditional casus belli" but I kinda don't see that. The log dumps traditionally regarded as a CB have been acquired by dubious means or untrue.

A senate sanction for a true statement on information gained in an above board manner seems pretty inappropriate to me.

Well, Dajobo, I have not been gone a few days but I'm genuinely confused by your point.

 

In your very recent thread entitled, "Ramblings from the Imperial Rocking Chair* you say that there are people sharing information with you and make a bunch of claims while at the same time not listing those people.  All of these are true statements, right?  Well, in that case it seems to me based on your position here that there is no reason why you shouldn't be posting logs there.

 

The phrases you use to explain why you are not giving specifics, which  include "Without ratting people out or betraying the confidence of those who told me stuff..."

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/127179-ramblings-from-the-imperial-rocking-chair/

 

demonstrates to me that you understand just fine why there is a problem with posting logs regardless of if they are real or fake..

 

In terms of it NOT being a traditional casus belli,  may I draw your attention to the following DoW you made in 2013 against NSO:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=119053

 

Looks traditional enough to me.  But if you have changed you mind since that time, please feel free to share the logs of people making statements to you in confidence you mention in your recent thread.

 

Franz doesn't set policy for the entire Doomsphere and you should know that, Dajobo.

I agree, he should. 

 

I agree Rey but I really was being genuine with what I wrote. I didn't see anyone denying the logs validity, just people saying LH shouldn't have shown anyone.
Franz doesn't set the policy but that doesn't mean what he said was incorrect.

It doesn't mean what he said was correct. 

 

The person who speaks for Doom Kingdom, by the authority of the Doomfather and Doommanager, regarding foreign affairs issues is the Doombassador.  I am that person. 

 

In the future when you are confused, you are free to ask me in private.  One word of warning, however.  When talking to me, you should assume anything said outside the OWF between us is private and not something I want posted on the OWF at any time in the future unless I give explicit permission.  Thanks. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by White Chocolate

[Neo Uruk]

I agree Rey but I really was being genuine with what I wrote. I didn't see anyone denying the logs validity, just people saying LH shouldn't have shown anyone.
Franz doesn't set the policy but that doesn't mean what he said was incorrect.

Why should they need to deny the validity of what he said? They wouldn't just come out and say, especially publicly, that they as a group think of NG as just meatshields. That's a preposterous idea.

[Margrave]

Dajobo, you irascible gentleman, if someone accuses you of something ridiculous, not denying it doesn't validate the accusation.

[Dajobo]

Well, Dajobo, I have not been gone a few days but I'm genuinely confused by your point.
 
In your very recent thread entitled, "Ramblings from the Imperial Rocking Chair* you say that there are people sharing information with you and make a bunch of claims while at the same time not listing those people.  All of these are true statements, right?  Well, in that case it seems to me based on your position here that there is no reason why you shouldn't be posting logs there.
 
The phrases you use to explain why you are not giving specifics, which  include "Without ratting people out or betraying the confidence of those who told me stuff..."
 
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/127179-ramblings-from-the-imperial-rocking-chair/
 
demonstrates to me that you understand just fine why there is a problem with posting logs regardless of if they are real or fake..

The reason I don't leak logs isn't to avoid war, it's to not betray people's trust. I'd expect the consequence of leaking wouldn't be war, but to lose that trust from people and the the benefit of that trust.
Likewise, I'd expect Lord Hitchcock to have lost the trust of some people for posting logs and therefore he'll lose the benefit that trust gave him.
 

In terms of it NOT being a traditional casus belli,  may I draw your attention to the following DoW you made in 2013 against NSO:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=119053
 
Looks traditional enough to me.  But if you have changed you mind since that time, please feel free to share the logs of people making statements to you in confidence you mention in your recent thread.

We didn't declare because they leaked a log! We declared because a leaked log showed a plan to attack us and even included a timeline. 
 

I agree, he should. 
 
It doesn't mean what he said was correct. 
 
The person who speaks for Doom Kingdom, by the authority of the Doomfather and Doommanager, regarding foreign affairs issues is the Doombassador.  I am that person. 
 
In the future when you are confused, you are free to ask me in private.  One word of warning, however.  When talking to me, you should assume anything said outside the OWF between us is private and not something I want posted on the OWF at any time in the future unless I give explicit permission.  Thanks.

I assume the same in conversations I have. My point is betrayal of that ends in loss of trust, not sanctions or war.

[Dajobo]

Why should they need to deny the validity of what he said? They wouldn't just come out and say, especially publicly, that they as a group think of NG as just meatshields. That's a preposterous idea.

 
 

Dajobo, you irascible gentleman, if someone accuses you of something ridiculous, not denying it doesn't validate the accusation.

You're both absolutely correct. I was just puzzled with the response and the justifications never once even hinting the logs weren't real, just an objection to them being leaked.

[Margrave]

 
 
You're both absolutely correct. I was just puzzled with the response and the justifications never once even hinting the logs weren't real, just an objection to them being leaked.

 

Subtly undermining the edifice of the argument by trying to change the nature of it, I see. They're not worried about the validity of the logs, they're angry about the irresponsibility of the leader who leaked them.

 

It was especially inopportune of Hitchcock to leak them because prior to this, there was no reason for DK to be involved even at a tertiary level in this war; they didn't care and we (that being the SRA/Kashmir/NSO/TCA Coalition) never asked them to do anything.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Margrave

[Franz Ferdinand]

The log dump was an attempt to shine a spotlight on me due to my past with Lord Hitchcock and an attempt to inflame the situation by trying to coax me into getting properly involved within the conflict. The mentioned parties that the logs were in relation to have been contacted and any potential fallout as a result of my opinion (which as people say does NOT represent Doom Kingdom's ultimate position) especially as it was an observation which was made in a private correspondence with an individual I trust (or at least hoped) would understand that the information was simply my view and not attempt to skew it to be representative of the Doom Kingdom at whole.

 

Dajobo, I believe that there are reasons why you retired from government however I hope that by retiring you did not lose your ability to realise that you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Sephiroth]

The log dump was an attempt to shine a spotlight on me due to my past with Lord Hitchcock and an attempt to inflame the situation by trying to coax me into getting properly involved within the conflict. The mentioned parties that the logs were in relation to have been contacted and any potential fallout as a result of my opinion (which as people say does NOT represent Doom Kingdom's ultimate position) especially as it was an observation which was made in a private correspondence with an individual I trust (or at least hoped) would understand that the information was simply my view and not attempt to skew it to be representative of the Doom Kingdom at whole.

 

Dajobo, I believe that there are reasons why you retired from government however I hope that by retiring you did not lose your ability to realise that you are barking up the wrong tree.

I still don't understand how a log leak can be justification for someone & all their allies to get sanctioned. I don't agree with the log dump being justification to sanction LH, but to use it as justification to sanction everyone in his alliance, Limitless Nexus & Confederatio Aesir seems like insanity to me.

[Dajobo]

Hi Franz

I'm as biased as hell at times and I don't pretend otherwise. In this case I was being honest though and my questions were real. I think the senate sanctions were stupid and inappropriate but I do accept and appreciate your explanation.

[Sephiroth]

I'll have to go back and check my PMs to see these logs WC mentioned,  but I don't leak confidential logs & had nothing to do with LH leaking those logs. Its never even registered on my radar as being anything of great importance with everything else going on. So to see our entire side getting sanctioned, including myself on my own color sphere despite being a current Senator, was surprising to put it mildly.

[Franz Ferdinand]

I still don't understand how a log leak can be justification for someone & all their allies to get sanctioned. I don't agree with the log dump being justification to sanction LH, but to use it as justification to sanction everyone in his alliance, Limitless Nexus & Confederatio Aesir seems like insanity to me.

Simple: don't allow him to make log dumps in treaty threads. His actions resulted in Limitless Nexus and Confederatio Aesir being hit by the sanctions due to the support that you have been giving him for past actions. At least that would be how I would view it, so it would be unwise to consider my word on the matter as gospel.

[Sephiroth]

Simple: don't allow him to make log dumps in treaty threads. His actions resulted in Limitless Nexus and Confederatio Aesir being hit by the sanctions due to the support that you have been giving him for past actions. At least that would be how I would view it, so it would be unwise to consider my word on the matter as gospel.

LH has been supporting us in this war, they came in defensively for us.

[Franz Ferdinand]

LH has been supporting us in this war, they came in defensively for us.

The problem would be thus determining whether he was a lone gun in dumping his logs or whether any logs he would post would be endorsed by his supporters. If he did not inform you prior to making the dump, then the question lies how unified your side really is. Again, this is my view and not that of Doom Kingdom.

[Sephiroth]

The problem would be thus determining whether he was a lone gun in dumping his logs or whether any logs he would post would be endorsed by his supporters. If he did not inform you prior to making the dump, then the question lies how unified your side really is. Again, this is my view and not that of Doom Kingdom.

So if any of Doom Kingdom's allies were to dump any logs, do you think that would justify sanctions against Doom Kingdom & the rest of their allies? Your justification still seems very odd to me.

[Franz Ferdinand]

So if any of Doom Kingdom's allies were to dump any logs, do you think that would justify sanctions against Doom Kingdom & the rest of their allies? Your justification still seems very odd to me.

Context is key, either way that's enough from me. Any more and you'll have to go through the traditional channels.

[KingNeptune]

Context is key, either way that's enough from me. Any more and you'll have to go through the traditional channels.

So basically the sanctions are being broadly justified when placed on Minc and our 'side' as it were. But if the shoe's on the other foot, the conversation stalls.
Pot kettle and all that.

The whole sanction BS is a charade and opportunistic attempt to hinder our current war effort - L_H's log dumps are a just current excuse. Not a justifiable reason.

Methrage's responses was measured and warnings were given of counter sanctions if there was an escalation. Unlike the all encompassing nonsense against us.

[Franz Ferdinand]

So basically the sanctions are being broadly justified when placed on Minc and our 'side' as it were. But if the shoe's on the other foot, the conversation stalls.
Pot kettle and all that.

The whole sanction BS is a charade and opportunistic attempt to hinder our current war effort - L_H's log dumps are a just current excuse. Not a justifiable reason.

Methrage's responses was measured and warnings were given of counter sanctions if there was an escalation. Unlike the all encompassing nonsense against us.

Alternatively I am not answering the question because there is a difference in the situation involving Monsters Inc and the hypothetical relating to Doom Kingdom. Any questions relating to the subject matter are really for WhiteChocolate to answer due to it falling under Foreign Affairs and thus I can only give my opinion as opposed to the exact rationale.

 

Or to sum it up: Monsters Inc have done enough to warrant sanctions in this war. What they are, simply look at past actions by the alliance.

 

Anyway, in regards to the sanctions, I am not the person you should be discussing it with, as mentioned prior direct questions at WhiteChocolate. Thank you.

[Master Holton]

Why is anyone concerned with the morality of sanctions??

 

Are we going to complain about using nukes as a first strike weapon now? I know this is the OWF and I shouldn't expect more, but I kind of do. Especially from people like Dajobo.

[Sephiroth]

Why is anyone concerned with the morality of sanctions??

 

Are we going to complain about using nukes as a first strike weapon now? I know this is the OWF and I shouldn't expect more, but I kind of do. Especially from people like Dajobo.

The morality isn't really the issue, but the stupidity. Atlas goes all out with the sanctions against a sitting Senator & all his allies, then they cry foul when we sanction them back. Currently its causing a disruption on the Brown Sphere. I don't care about your sanction on white.

[Dajobo]

Methrage is right here, it's not a morality debate at all but a common sense one.
Using sanctions over minor matters is the thin edge of a seriously stupid wedge.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Methrage is right here, it's not a morality debate at all but a common sense one.
Using sanctions over minor matters is the thin edge of a seriously stupid wedge.

 

Morality gets a bad rap around here, but when you look past the propaganda nonsense what is left is mostly just little bits of 'common sense' like this one.

 

Don't defecate where you ingest your nutrients is pretty basic really.

[KenMorningstar]

Methrage is right here, it's not a morality debate at all but a common sense one.Using sanctions over minor matters is the thin edge of a seriously stupid wedge.

Nah sanction everyone all the time. This world is dying, sanction away.