A question of a platypus nature

[shahenshah]

R&R leadership also knows that they effectively stopped communicating, and up until the war dec led RIA to believe that R&R was going to only follow defensive treaties, which is not the case. You can argue whatever you like, R&R $%&@ed up with RIA, which is disappointing.

I still want to see TOP get rolled, but they're in peace mode, and until you actually present the discussed terms of their upper tier exiting peace mode for the two months or so suggested, they don't have a reason to exit PM.

Your opinion I am sure have been noted and someone who speaks for RIA can discuss it with RnR.

I'm personally not privy to the other discussions and I doubt you are either on first hand basis nor I have any reason to take your word for it, as things can be fluid often. I'm sure both sides will sort it out, the front is only a month old(another reason why delayed entry thing was silly, heads need to roll for this), so time isn't really a pressure point I would guess. Edited January 9, 2015 by shahenshah

[Letum]

Considering there aren't really sides until a war starts and NPO was clearly involved in the planning, what exactly are you referring to?

Of course there's sides prior to the start of the conflict. People assemble coalitions by getting key players on board in the weeks or even months running up to a conflict. It's not just a matter of someone firing randomly and hoping the treaty chess falls their way. (Usually at least).

[Prodigal Moon]

Of course there's sides prior to the start of the conflict. People assemble coalitions by getting key players on board in the weeks or even months running up to a conflict. It's not just a matter of someone firing randomly and hoping the treaty chess falls their way. (Usually at least).

 

I could've phrased that better, but what I'm getting at is saxasm's rationale that makes it sound like there were two sides fighting and then Pacifica just picked one based on which side you had more allies on. The only ally you had in the fight that I'm aware of was Umb, who you signed with like the day before, so obviously this wasn't Pacifica being forced to chain into a conflict that you hadn't helped plan. Which brings us back to the original question: why did you start this war?

[the rebel]

The rebel, practice what you preach, feel free to share with us your criticisms of your allies in other relevant discussions. No I do not publicly criticize my allies nor I expect others to do, and none of my allies have done it to this scale

I do practice what I preach and I'm in an alliance with no defense treaties, but just for you I have neutral feelings of the NAPs, ToA and PIAT allies.

None? That is cute. IRON has shook its hands with many over the years and at least one currently.

But before you get out your statistic hand book and feed me numbers as proof, statistics can be made to say anything and we both end up right using them. Edited January 9, 2015 by the rebel

[saxasm]

 
I could've phrased that better, but what I'm getting at is saxasm's rationale that makes it sound like there were two sides fighting and then Pacifica just picked one based on which side you had more allies on. The only ally you had in the fight that I'm aware of was Umb, who you signed with like the day before, so obviously this wasn't Pacifica being forced to chain into a conflict that you hadn't helped plan. Which brings us back to the original question: why did you start this war?

Sure, I don't think anyone would argue that we entered primarily in support of allies already in the field. However, as can be seen by how the war escalated, we did have a lot of allies committed to entering on the side we entered on. Those are the allies we were entering in support of, and those were the allies that made our choices in this war rational.

[Garion]

This is without wasting my time digging up all the posts from berbers cheerleading against us. Do you guys need a minute to get on message?

 
After the lectures we got in your embassy on our boards, you shouldn't be surprised from our reactions, I think.
 

R&R went out of their way to attack Polaris, an RIA ally, to say that R&R is really going out of their way to do anything is a joke.

Who burned those bridges first? Us or XX? But yes, let's conveniently forget all that because it doesn't suit your narrative. Edited January 10, 2015 by Garion

[Mogar]

Who burned those bridges first? Us or XX? But yes, let's conveniently forget all that because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Pretty sure XX gave US a chance to be on the winning team last war, can't help that you decided defending NPO was more important.

[Dajobo]

I was quite a bit behind in this discussion and it's a pretty interesting one.

Let me clear up some misconceptions as we have more than a few people who put words in my mouths and attributing quotes I have never made. EViL0nE read it right though. I have stated many times I believe this war will go for a long time yet. I've not said once that it's my desire. Nothing I've seen or heard lately has changed that opinion.

As for this crap about Polar refusing to discuss peace, I've not been approached. Considering others decided they would start this war, when they feel they have had their fill they can let me know. At this point no such feelings have been expressed.

Finally if anyone thinks we are leaving without ALL of our allies out, don't bother asking.

Carry on...

[Steve Buscemi]

I'm not usually a fan of these types of threads, but this has got to the one of the most severe cases of hypocrisy in all of Planet Bob.  Not even a shred of dignity left in TOP I guess.

[Icewolf]

I'm not usually a fan of these types of threads, but this has got to the one of the most severe cases of hypocrisy in all of Planet Bob.  Not even a shred of dignity left in TOP I guess.

Been true for a while now. 

 

Bottom line is, cutting through all the rubbish, TOP have never done their fair share in a war since I joined, and as a result are sliding further and further down the worlds estimation of them. Each war their stock gets less and less.

[Dajobo]

Been true for a while now. 
 
Bottom line is, cutting through all the rubbish, TOP have never done their fair share in a war since I joined, and as a result are sliding further and further down the worlds estimation of them. Each war their stock gets less and less.

Go look at the dates of the last war than read the sanction race thread for the last month+ of that war. While IRON was growing TOP was fighting. Get some dignity and stop this crap please!

[Groucho Marx]

I'm not usually a fan of these types of threads, but this has got to the one of the most severe cases of hypocrisy in all of Planet Bob.  Not even a shred of dignity left in TOP I guess.

 

 

 

 

Coming from you this is fantastic. IRON's been perpetuating a lot of falsehoods about TOP for quite some time now and it's typical to see NG falling in line with whatever the alliance who had consciously thrown you under a bus in the last war says for brownie points. IRON's spent the last few years picking their fights better than anyone, to some extent going completely out of their way to avoid a challenging fight or lifting their own weight at great expense to their allies and their coalitions. Every so often they carry more of the water when they have to in order to keep people from becoming too displeased with their unwillingness to sacrifice a lot of the dead weight that their alliance has in abundance but it's barely ever enough. 

[shahenshah]

Go look at the dates of the last war than read the sanction race thread for the last month+ of that war. While IRON was growing TOP was fighting. Get some dignity and stop this crap please!

You do know why the war was being fought at that time and you also knew we would take our own route if terms were pursued.

@Emperor Marx: So speaks member of GOONS. At least TOP posted a token defense, at lease Valhalla drew a line, how much ever close far or dotted it was, and both of them have/are taking the PR backlash, but the worst of them all is GOONS. Hiding, not picking up phones, keeping out of limelight. Hey, thanks for reminding us.

All you can do is throw empty rhetoric and do nothing else, talk all you want about our battle selections, even the ones we screw up, we do more for atleast certain set of allies then you have done for anyone of your ally in this war. im sure your words will deflect the nukes that most of your allies face on daily basis. There is only one alliance trying to put itself completely out of the way, be it pixels or PR, and that's none other than your own alliance, GOONS. Its hard to judge what's worst, TOPs antics or GOONS lecturing others on battle selections. I'm sure if we were a micro, you'd be all over by now. Don't throw stones when you're currently living in a glass castle. Go and keep quite like your more intelligent colleagues are doing. Talk about lifting weight and choosing battles when your doing something similar, what you are doing right now is nothing, lots of missed calls on your phone bro. Do call back. Edited January 10, 2015 by shahenshah

[Dcrews]

IRON sure pick their battle in EQ, those guys didn't lose anything. Sure as hell didn't do anything in Grudge either.

I swear some people don't even try to back up their rhetoric with facts.

[Icewolf]

Go look at the dates of the last war than read the sanction race thread for the last month+ of that war. While IRON was growing TOP was fighting. Get some dignity and stop this crap please!

I suppose we are talking of the same TOP that couldn't pull its weight in the grudge war, through a hissy fit that IRON wasn't totally keen on earning their reps from you for them, threw another hissy fit when we even dared to open basic communications with you, and then treatied the fuck out of you the moment their other powerbases fell apart? We are well rid of them and you really picked the wrong friends. 

 

But you know our fronts were over in all but name by the end of disorder, select history all you like and out of context numbers if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. Truth is, TOP don't work for anyone but themselves and you know it, whilst you burn and burn and they sit in hippie watching your top tier sink to the low 30Ks, giving them a temporary advantage over the n00bs there so idiots like Tywin can pretend you are winning the war (cause I guess it feels like winning to win the odd ground battle on a newbie), you can continue to call it strategic. Just be aware that if they are strategic, you are the dumbest idiots to walk this earth because you actually put your troops on the line, which by this definition, isn't strategic.

[iamthey]

Shah/icewolf, I understand that you all have a vested interest in the ~TOP Peace Mode~ narrative, be it for the purposes of self gratification, or because you foresee it having an impact, but the war isn't over. The reflexive responses between you all as you bump each other with variations of the same talking points makes you look like try hards.

Dcrews gets a pass, at least he's just defending you guys.

You'd be served well reflecting on what a normal/reasonable reaction might look like. Hint:
 

Personally, I do not have an issue with alliances utilizing excessive usage of peace modes as long as their intents are tactical, strategic, or to a lesser extent, avoidance. TOP's lucky to have allies that have no issues with TOP not deploying its upper tiers as far as I can tell. That may change, seeing that the war is not yet over so it is premature to conclude whether TOP will utilize its upper tiers or not.
 
I would like to note that NATO sacrificed most or all of its upper tiers  at Doombird Doomcave during the MQ's Jihad. That act demonstrates that NATO is not afraid to use its upper tiers against odds. That also applies to Random Insanity Alliance and New Polar Order. Those alliances have certainly earned my respect.

 
 

I'm okay with TOP's upper tier in PM despite that resulting in a paucity of targets in range of me. I think Keshav was right insofar as better timing of Polar and friends' upper tiers entering but it is what it is. TOP can enter as fresh legs at some point in the future once some DBDC et a.l have been worn down, but I'm not sure how tenable a strategy that is since a lot of us aren't sustaining any damage. For example, my GDA target hasn't attacked back at all or tried to rebuild since, presumably, he is away and unable to respond. I won't presume as to what the end-game here is for Polar, but there are only so few options remaining.  Just food for thought. :v:

Edited January 10, 2015 by iamthey

[Icewolf]

Peace Mode is a strategy would be fine....as long as there is some sane and sensible strategy. 

 

Kindly illuminate for me then why it was worth letting your allies completely lose their top tier before in the long term you actually bring out yours? I mean great, we take you down one at a time, nice and easy, no need to break a sweat....whats in it for you?

[berbers]

And don't forget the whole trying to negotiate limited engagement terms for it's upper tier as a condition of coming out of PM...thats pretty important too imho.

[Lord bagel]

@Emperor Marx: So speaks member of GOONS. At least TOP posted a token defense, at lease Valhalla drew a line, how much ever close far or dotted it was, and both of them have/are taking the PR backlash, but the worst of them all is GOONS. Hiding, not picking up phones, keeping out of limelight. Hey, thanks for reminding us.

All you can do is throw empty rhetoric and do nothing else, talk all you want about our battle selections, even the ones we screw up, we do more for atleast certain set of allies then you have done for anyone of your ally in this war. im sure your words will deflect the nukes that most of your allies face on daily basis. There is only one alliance trying to put itself completely out of the way, be it pixels or PR, and that's none other than your own alliance, GOONS. Its hard to judge what's worst, TOPs antics or GOONS lecturing others on battle selections. I'm sure if we were a micro, you'd be all over by now. Don't throw stones when you're currently living in a glass castle. Go and keep quite like your more intelligent colleagues are doing. Talk about lifting weight and choosing battles when your doing something similar, what you are doing right now is nothing, lots of missed calls on your phone bro. Do call back.

Do you even know what you are talking about? goons let TOP know early on that their hands were tied and would be unable to help us. We knew going in that GOONS couldn't help us and we acted as such. Unlike Valhalla who let us know they weren't helping after we had already anticipated their help.

Don't fault GOONS for not fighting in a war with half their treaties on one side and half on the other. They could have oA'ed on some weak target and called it a day, but they respected both their sets of allies and didn't.

[Rush Sykes]

And don't forget the whole trying to negotiate limited engagement terms for it's upper tier as a condition of coming out of PM...thats pretty important too imho.

 

It almost is a page right out of Valhalla's book.

[The Zigur]

... whilst you burn and burn and they sit in hippie watching your top tier sink to the low 30Ks, giving them a temporary advantage over the n00bs there so idiots like Tywin can pretend you are winning the war...

Doubt it's going to be that temporary bro, Polar definitely has the capacity to strangle the lower tiers of those who oppress us. I never said we are winning, but I didn't say that Im not enjoying "losing" this war either. :smug:

Like the Emperor said so long as the Enemy wants a taste of our military industrial complex we will be happy to supply it. But what I find really amusing is the recent surge of anti-TOP posts by IRON ITT. Im not all that familiar with IRON aside from the fact it always dodges hard wars, but seems kind of hypocritical to attack TOP for qualities you have shown in much more excess within your alliance.

[Icewolf]

Doubt it's going to be that temporary bro, Polar definitely has the capacity to strangle the lower tiers of those who oppress us. I never said we are winning, but I didn't say that Im not enjoying "losing" this war either. :smug:

Like the Emperor said so long as the Enemy wants a taste of our military industrial complex we will be happy to supply it. But what I find really amusing is the recent surge of anti-TOP posts by IRON ITT. Im not all that familiar with IRON aside from the fact it always dodges hard wars, but seems kind of hypocritical to attack TOP for qualities you have shown in much more excess within your alliance.

Find me one war where at any point 70%of our alliance was in Peace Mode whilst our allies burned to death? 

 

Oh that's right....you can't.

 

The suggestion IRON dodges hard wars is also completely off base-we've done our share of hard fighting. This "IRON dodges hard wars" rubbish is a fiction and a fantasy. You know we actually had a blazing fall out with TOP when we were allies because they wanted to run around tech raiding whilst IRON was still at war with Polar (and TOP nominally at war with them) just so they could get their tech reps? Yeah....some of us try hard in wars....some not so much. 

 

As for winning, we've been down this road before. For a while it can feel for those in the bottom tiers that there is a role reversal and the losers are actually winning, but give it a month or two as the top level of your nations gets pushed lower and lower you eventually find that isn't the case. During the grudge war IRONs bottom tier, which I was a part of, felt like it was losing. 6 weeks later a nation of 5K NS was struggling to get in range targets on Polar. 

[the rebel]

Kindly illuminate for me then why it was worth letting your allies completely lose their top tier before in the long term you actually bring out yours? I mean great, we take you down one at a time, nice and easy, no need to break a sweat....whats in it for you?

I could be wrong but wasn't TOP the only alliance on their front to even have a reasonable top tier?

If so then your point would be mute.

[DeathAdder]

@Emperor Marx: So speaks member of GOONS. At least TOP posted a token defense, at lease Valhalla drew a line, how much ever close far or dotted it was, and both of them have/are taking the PR backlash, but the worst of them all is GOONS. Hiding, not picking up phones, keeping out of limelight. Hey, thanks for reminding us.

All you can do is throw empty rhetoric and do nothing else, talk all you want about our battle selections, even the ones we screw up, we do more for atleast certain set of allies then you have done for anyone of your ally in this war. im sure your words will deflect the nukes that most of your allies face on daily basis. There is only one alliance trying to put itself completely out of the way, be it pixels or PR, and that's none other than your own alliance, GOONS. Its hard to judge what's worst, TOPs antics or GOONS lecturing others on battle selections. I'm sure if we were a micro, you'd be all over by now. Don't throw stones when you're currently living in a glass castle. Go and keep quite like your more intelligent colleagues are doing. Talk about lifting weight and choosing battles when your doing something similar, what you are doing right now is nothing, lots of missed calls on your phone bro. Do call back.

 

 

Do you even know what you are talking about? goons let TOP know early on that their hands were tied and would be unable to help us. We knew going in that GOONS couldn't help us and we acted as such. Unlike Valhalla who let us know they weren't helping after we had already anticipated their help.

Don't fault GOONS for not fighting in a war with half their treaties on one side and half on the other. They could have oA'ed on some weak target and called it a day, but they respected both their sets of allies and didn't.

 

Yeah. They informed us, too. Pretty sure that MI6 and Umbrella got told the same thing, at least from what members of each AA's Govt has said.

 

So, who exactly were they "not picking up phones" on again?

 

You claim that all GOONS can do is throw around empty rhetoric, but frankly, all I've seen out of you both during this war, as well as the lead-up to it, is talking out of your ass and tossing around baseless accusations, only to afterwards backpedal out of most when you were called out on it.

 

In reality, I'm sure you knew them to be just as false as anyone else who doesn't drink the Kool-Aid, but, it's pretty clear to anyone who has bothered to read the OWF recently that you like being purposefully obtuse in order to sling mud.

 

Never change, RON.

Edited January 10, 2015 by DeathAdder

[Prodigal Moon]

Just be aware that if they are strategic, you are the dumbest idiots to walk this earth because you actually put your troops on the line, which by this definition, isn't strategic.

That's a pretty big dumbdumbhead right there!