A Statement from BFF

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1357914948' post='3074762']

Yes we have, you were a bollocks back then and you are a bollocks still now. I've been in BFF longer than you stayed in Polaris if that's anything to go by.
[/quote]

I didn't keep track of how long, only that I like them and did them a disrespect with my inactivity. You should get on Chat more

[Isaac MatthewII]

Though lately I have not been a fan of BFF, this is a reasonable move done in a very classy way. Also my mother only had a little bit to do with the war damnit!


Edit: Then again, I may not know the whole story, will be interesting to see how this plays out for NEW, Kaskus, and BFF.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Isaac MatthewII

[suryanto tan]

[quote name='Altheus' timestamp='1357910860' post='3074737']
That is interesting to say the least. Could you expand?
[/quote]
May be not UPN it could be Invicta. Purple alliances looks all the same to me (sorry).

I have the log somewhere, perhaps I can look it up. I am pretty sure I have posted it in NEW government forum, though. We need to dig, will take time.

[Robster83]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1357912151' post='3074748']
Robster, remember what we were talking about last night? It's in full effect here.
[/quote]

Certainly.

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357908248' post='3074728']
I have to ask, but is it true that BFF actually struck a deal for a non-nuclear war so that they can limit the damage they would have taken just so that they can save face and pretend to be "honorable"?

Not that I am surprised, but still I cannot believe it actually happens to us. I remembered when I was in NEW leadership and BFF told us (actually it is Europa told FEAR and FEAR told us) that they intentionally treaty to both UPN and GOONS which are on opposite side just so that they can choose the winning side when a war break.

You guys are truly terrible. Just 1 week ago, you come to us asking us to get ready to defend you because you were about to protect someone in some alliance ZI list. IS the MADP a one way things for you? You get to tell us to go to war to defend you anytime you need, but when the situation is reverse you are citing hundreds of protocol breach to get out of it?
NEW will never blink a bit no matter how bad your odd is fighting your enemy. They will defend you no matter what, at all cost. But you pulling this kind of stuff. Truly deplorable. Sad to see the good friend in FEAR got bad influence from the sissy of Europa. FEAR, we still think you are good people who got mixed with the wrong kind. Terrible kind. Coward and opportunist.

I have yet to see BFF being honorable. Do not cite the DF-KASKUS war. In that war, BFF surrender in 3 days, and complaining all the way. Members of iFOK and PC however, support us restlessly and for that we are forever in debt with them.
[/quote]

Don't blame the FEAR and WolfPack folk. The high majority of them are still class.

[Prozenz]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357908248' post='3074728']
You guys are truly terrible. Just 1 week ago, you come to us asking us to get ready to defend you because you were about to protect someone in some alliance ZI list. IS the MADP a one way things for you? You get to tell us to go to war to defend you anytime you need, but when the situation is reverse you are citing hundreds of protocol breach to get out of it?
NEW will never blink a bit no matter how bad your odd is fighting your enemy. They will defend you no matter what, at all cost. But you pulling this kind of stuff. Truly deplorable. Sad to see the good friend in FEAR got bad influence from the sissy of Europa. FEAR, we still think you are good people who got mixed with the wrong kind. Terrible kind. Coward and opportunist.

I have yet to see BFF being honorable. Do not cite the DF-KASKUS war. In that war, BFF surrender in 3 days, and complaining all the way. Members of iFOK and PC however, support us restlessly and for that we are forever in debt with them.
[/quote]this guy speak the truth. Good luck guys!

[Thrash]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357915297' post='3074765']
May be not UPN it could be Invicta. Purple alliances looks all the same to me (sorry).

I have the log somewhere, perhaps I can look it up. I am pretty sure I have posted it in NEW government forum, though. We need to dig, will take time.
[/quote]

We've actually been red for awhile. I'd, too, like to see these logs. You can PM me here.

[suryanto tan]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1357915498' post='3074767']
Certainly.



Don't blame the FEAR and WolfPack folk. The high majority of them are still class.
[/quote]

Agree. It is just that Europa is the one who make all the call on behalf of BFF. We know FEAR very well, wolfpack I cannot really say, but FEAR always vouch for them 100% and they never disappointing. The original FEAR will not pull something like this. Dropping treaty is one thing, but to work out a backroom deal to limit the damage on themselves while let NEW get toast, that is really disgusting.

[Robster83]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357922091' post='3074784']
Agree. It is just that Europa is the one who make all the call on behalf of BFF. We know FEAR very well, wolfpack I cannot really say, but FEAR always vouch for them 100% and they never disappointing. The original FEAR will not pull something like this. Dropping treaty is one thing, but to work out a backroom deal to limit the damage on themselves while let NEW get toast, that is really disgusting.
[/quote]

I agree. I don't understand the need to cover it up and make it seem as if they are "honouring" the treaty. I am sure NEW would of understood BFF's decision to drop the treaty, even if they did not agree with the reason. But to go behind your back, to fix a war and agree to a non nuclear war for a short amount of time, meh. You deserved a respectful parting at least. It's a shame BFF stooped that low.

[Vespassianus]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357922091' post='3074784']
Agree. It is just that Europa is the one who make all the call on behalf of BFF. We know FEAR very well, wolfpack I cannot really say, but FEAR always vouch for them 100% and they never disappointing. The original FEAR will not pull something like this. Dropping treaty is one thing, but to work out a backroom deal to limit the damage on themselves while let NEW get toast, that is really disgusting.
[/quote]

Yeah long ago FEAR and NEW were good allies and got rolled together many times (mainly by FEAR's treaty ties), but none questioned that FEAR would fight for NEW, no matter who's the enemy or what's the CB.

Now there was some chance that NEW was getting rolled (it happened a lot of times sooner), some guys started to panic that maybe they will fight a loosing war on the side of their most loyal ally (what war will happen inevitably, but now without the support of NEW) and ended long years friendship in some moments.

That non-nuclear !@#$%^&* is just laughable.

[Imran Ehsan]

[quote name='Vespassianus' timestamp='1357924273' post='3074802']
That non-nuclear !@#$%^&* is just laughable.
[/quote]

That sums up my feelings on this whole situation. Whoever worked that out and agreed to it should be ashamed of themselves.

[Comrade Craig]

I'm just going to say this once and everyone can ignore it.

The mantra of CN was always "Private Channels FTW." The meaning behind this is that when negotiations are performed in public, they become spectacles of belligerence and public posturing.

I see in this thread that certain alliances have sunk to a new low. When backchannels are no longer secure for the purposes of negotiating peace, they won't be used.

-Craig

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1357864432' post='3074257']
Suddenly MADPs are permanent.
[/quote]

There was a time when they weren't dropped when they suddenly became a liability because of a pending conflict. That era passed with VE-GOD, though honestly it was always more a standard of foreign relations, not an absolute.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1357889173' post='3074665']
[i]Neither NG or NPO offered the deal. BFF offered us the deal.[/i]
[/quote]

We were informed of the idea via a third party, a party whom also suggested that Non Grata might be partial to agreeing. We came to you with that background in mind. To Non Grata's credit (as I saw the contrary implied earlier and wanted to clear it up), they [i]did [/i]reject the offer.

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1357897815' post='3074688']
words
[/quote]

We were under pressure from many sides. The DR/NPO side thought this was an elaborate DH trap. The DH side was understandably worried watching NPO's allies bulk up. Let me restate, [b]BFF was never informed of the aid until after it had been sent, and we were informed by Non Grata, not NEW. [/b]As stated in the OP, declaring an aggressive war on somebody (NSO in this case) without informing somebody who is [u]treaty-bound[/u] to defend you is putting said ally in danger, thus violating article II of this treaty. And to clarify, [b]BFF only had the limited war option if NEW hit NPO aggressively in those 7 days. [/b]All it took was NEW not declaring an aggressive war on NPO and none of that would have happened. If NEW had hit another alliance, or if NEW had been hit [i]by [/i]NPO, BFF was prepared to burn all the way down with them, beyond the 7 days if the war continued that long, until our former allies could get honorable peace.

[quote name='sigelopisan' timestamp='1357899649' post='3074702']
You have my respect and my gun.
[/quote]

Man stabs longtime friends in the back. Kaskus sees it as respectful.

Man pushes longtime friend into a knife. Man tries to remove knife while still protecting friend as best as possible. Kaskus calls man coward.

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357908248' post='3074728']
Words
[/quote]

Europa fought for 5 days in that war, and we had [b]no [/b]treaty with NEW at the time. What you did in that war was stupid, and what they're doing here is stupid. Some things never change, I'm just sad that I thought NEW would. I should have listened to Deebo all those years ago, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Guess I'm learning my lesson here. Once unstable, always unstable. And please, [i]please [/i]don't call PC and iFok's actions in that war "helping us the whole time". They literally stood there and watched their allies pound you into the ground. They let 4 or 5 much larger alliances dogpile onto NEW, and [i]then [/i]they came out and said "oh, well if anybody ELSE hits NEW, we'll help". Meanwhile, us "cowards" in Europa dove into the war with you despite a lack of a treaty, kept our allies out of the war to avoid the obvious trap (just like this time), and accepted peace [b]when NEW told us and FEAR to accept it. [/b]Nice try joining the spindoctors, but you've got some learning to do.

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1357915292' post='3074764']
Though lately I have not been a fan of BFF, this is a reasonable move done in a very classy way. Also my mother only had a little bit to do with the war damnit!
[/quote]

I must have been misinformed. I apologize.

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1357915297' post='3074765']
May be not UPN it could be Invicta. Purple alliances looks all the same to me (sorry).
[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, and this is what I was working on the entire time (and never had plans to the contrary, mind you), Europa's point in allying GOONS and Invicta was that no matter how difficult it may have been (politically) as Schattenmann told me many times in private chats, we stuck by those who had stuck by us. Post UCNgate, Invicta was the only non-BFF former ally who even [u]listened[/u] to what we had to say. GOONS, lacking any treaty of any kind, told those who were threatening us with war to get $%&@ed. I'm sorry, if you don't see both of those as honorable alliances worth taking a political bullet for, then I don't know who you see as honorable.

[b]As I stated above, this "backroom dealing" was only in the event that NEW went, as some say, "full retard" and aggressively declared war on NPO. [/b]Should, say, Non Grata have hit Kaskus to draw out NEW (that's a hypothetical), and NEW had hit them, full war would have resulted. Same goes for ANY other alliance. Had NPO hit NEW directly for aiding Kaskus again (if they had), and if they do any time within the next 7 days, we will burn with them until they can get an honorable peace. That is and has always been our bottom line. The problem with NEW's actions in aiding Kaskus were that they not only endangered BFF, but they endangered all those they were indirectly tied to. They put TORN in a rough spot, but I don't know what TORN is doing, but I suspect they would have defended NEW alongside us no-questions asked, despite hearing rumors to the contrary. NEW's actions endangered every alliance tied to BFF, every alliance which would have refused to e-lawyer via non-chaining clauses. As BFF has done here, we are refusing to e-lawyer our way out of defending NEW. The only supposed "criminal offense" here is protecting ourselves from a war with NPO declared aggressively. We are grateful for the mercy shown by the NPO in this case, somebody who had absolutely [i]no [/i]reason to stick their necks out for us. From a personal standpoint, Brehon acted to me in an honorable way, going above and beyond, reminding me that despite Invictagate, we are still friends and "radio" associates.

As soon as that first aid parcel left NEW for Kaskus, BFF was under no legal binding to so much as look NEW's way as they got hit. Instead, we chose to stick by them defensively and aggressively, with a limited option with NPO and NPO alone. Considering only two weeks ago NEW was having a serious discussion about attacking, out of the blue, both MK and VE, [b]one of whom we are treatied to directly, [/b]one cannot even pretend NEW is the innocent party here. To downgrade to ODoAP in this instance, before the war kicked off, or to flatout cancel would have been seen as bailing on an ally right before a curbstomp. After many, many days of pleading with NEW not to attack MK and kick off something stupid for the sake of "because we want to", it was only an internal debate in NEW that prevented it. They were completely disregarding the wishes of their MDAP allies. BFF bloc would not have had that problem, because BFF bloc had a veto stamp to prevent idiocy. Our problem was thinking NEW could uphold an MDAP without that safety switch.

[D34th]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1357911139' post='3074739']
You are outright lying. Clearly no deal was 'struck' or else this thread wouldn't have happened. The whole purpose of this thread is to explain that there is no deal, that what happens to NEW, happens to them, and that BFF will fully honor their treaty, nukes and everything.

Suryanto tan, rather than try to get your information from this hellhole, try to talk privately with people like Brehon, Chax, or others that were actually involved in this situation.
[/quote]

Lying?

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1357880823' post='3074567']
With regards to our nonnuclear agreement, as has been stated several times, we were not the "masterminds" behind that plan, the idea was tossed our way at some point in the crisis and [b]we rolled with it[/b].
[/quote]

Now seems like he gave up this stupid plan after they get caught, but you don't need to spin like that never happened, just make you look foolish.

Edited January 11, 2013 by D34th

[KenoCore]

if i was NEW i would roll BFF for the back roo dealing and trying to set NEW up to get burned.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1357911346' post='3074740']
You're a good guy, I like you, but whoever is feeding you information is outright wrong. The idea of this was suggested to Chax by someone outside of NPO/BFF. Then it was actually proposed to BFF by NPO. Both of these happened in query, and the logs exist. Before you keep railing on without the facts to back you up, I encourage you to simply ask Brehon or Chax where the idea came from.
[/quote]
Where did you think I got the info from goldie? Yep, Brehon. Maybe you need to check your facts. And I also thought you were one of the betters in VE, but please stop the spin.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1357911139' post='3074739']
Clearly no deal was 'struck' or else this thread wouldn't have happened. The whole purpose of this thread is to explain that there is no deal, that what happens to NEW, happens to them, and that BFF will fully honor their treaty, nukes and everything.

Suryanto tan, rather than try to get your information from this hellhole, try to talk privately with people like Brehon, Chax, or others that were actually involved in this situation.
[/quote]
Yes, Tan, please go talk to Brehon. No deal was struck because we didn't agree to it. Chax/BFF offered it to us. I've read logs, I've had it confirmed by Brehon. Go ask him.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Steve Buscemi

[Mr Havok]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1357864724' post='3074260']


He's not referring to the cancellation, the cancellation was absolutely the right thing to do, in fact you should never have signed the treaty in the first place. NEW goes insane on an annual basis, you knew that when you inked the treaty, it's not a new character trait. So trying to strike backroom deals so you take minimal damage if you have to enter in their defence is pretty poor. If you agree to enter on a limited conflict basis it diminishes the act of coming to their aid, essentially you are entering so you can save face while your MADP partners get theirs smashed in because you have no real intention of being of any assistance. You'd be better just being honest and saying NEW you are !@#$@#$ retarded, you violated the terms of our treaty and you can go die in the fire you have built for yourself. Instead you choose to try and claim a moral victory in a situation where it wasn't really required selling out your MADP allies in the process.
[/quote]

Have to agree with mcrabt here

I'm sure this cancellation has more to do with outside pressure from BFF allies than BFF themselves

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1357884721' post='3074618']
You misunderstand me. Real cowards are lower than dirt. People you declare cowards because your delusional, attention-seeking brain thinks it has a grasp on the situation when in reality you know $%&@ all are not real cowards. From just about anybody else, I would take your post to heart, but coming from you it means nothing more than a gentle breeze in the wind. Your only contribution to this planet is to act as the lowest common denominator, the bottom of the food chain. GOONS trains their new members by letting them fight RUKUNUNUKUKUNUK or whatever his name is. We, the rest of the planet, train our members by teaching them how not to be like you.

What I'm trying to say to you, good sir, is that I couldn't give less of a fraction of a !@#$ about you, your opinion, your thoughts or your ideas in this situation. Before you jump up and say "lol why'd you post that then", I want you to realize that while I don't give a $%&@ about you, I do give one about keeping my community free from pollution and the spread of moronic behavior. Consider this my community service for the month.
[/quote]I had to go to bed so I missed your long winded response. But, in brief: lol, u buttmad.

[Daimos]

I am finally caught up. Good read!

OWF is like junk food. You know it’s bad but you just can’t help yourself.

[sir pwnage]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1357935061' post='3074858']
I am finally caught up. Good read!
[/quote]

What thread are [b]you[/b] reading?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1357931529' post='3074832']

Where did you think I got the info from goldie? Yep, Brehon. Maybe you need to check your facts. And I also thought you were one of the betters in VE, but please stop the spin.


Yes, Tan, please go talk to Brehon. No deal was struck because we didn't agree to it. Chax/BFF offered it to us. I've read logs, I've had it confirmed by Brehon. Go ask him.
[/quote]

Hey man, you seem pretty concerned over BFF's stance here and are posting quite a bit. I don't really understand why you're getting so emotional over something only tangentially related to NPO/NSO's well being.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Il Impero Romano

[Lurunin]

honestly i'm sad that the respect i've held for BFF the alliance(s) and bloc just disappeared in a hot flash.

your own name is "Blood For Friends" and had a MADP pact which literally was "Live together, die together". MADPs are pretty much suicide pacts and you can't say that none of you didn't know NEW when the entire planet could tell you how they are. they love war and will antagonize one if they don't get it. simply put. You all knew this about NEW and was one of the reasons you loved having them as an ally.

Hell everyone has always said it's better to be on the same side as them than against them

now semantics are getting in the way of such a relationship where outside pressure was probly more of a reason than anything else for this treaty being cancelled (see BFF members posting ITT)

everyone knew of the NEW-K relationship, hell it was practically a dual-membership. they talk as a single alliance, NEW members joined K during the Goon war and some K joined NEW during Dave War iirc? correct me if i'm wrong on that?

to say you weren't expecting NEW to help them again in this conflict means you don't know your own ally as much as a random stranger on Bob would.Should NEW have let you guys know more? hell yes they should have. But should you have cancelled a MADP because of it when you youselves have dragged them into countless wars? thats the real question.

You all keep saying "you would have done the same"...$%&@ no. any real alliance would look at their ally, one of their most trustworthy allies, and if they decided to do anything with the treaty would have done so after they burned their homes to the ground. when you have a treaty you abandon the idea of solely protecting your own membership because that is expected when the treaty is signed. you put away your own desires and reservations and help out an ally when they are in need. no matter how stupid the reason. You can literally be holding up a stump of an arm and yelling at them how retarded this all was but you don't abandon them. especially not the absolute highest level treaty that can be signed bar a MADP-dual membership. and you sure as hell don't agree to nor even consider taking the easy way out that is only a token commitment to the treaty.



now i don't doubt that i'll get a few red faced retorts at my post, hell i'll probly have some people laugh at my face about it. but i guess i'm one of the few that do still value Friends > Infra.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1357937015' post='3074918']
to say you weren't expecting NEW to help them again in this conflict means you don't know your own ally as much as a random stranger on Bob would.Should NEW have let you guys know more? hell yes they should have. But should you have cancelled a MADP because of it when you youselves have dragged them into countless wars? thats the real question.
[/quote]

No, the real question is this: will you write down all your predictions and publish them before the incidents happen? This way, your genius will be proven to the world and you won't look like a loudmouth who simply proclaims knowledge after the fact.

If everything is so obvious, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the events that will be happening, ummmm, let's say next Christmas.

-Craig

Edited January 11, 2013 by Comrade Craig

[Daimos]

[quote name='sir pwnage' timestamp='1357935548' post='3074870']
What thread are [b]you[/b] reading?
[/quote]

I was entertained, hence a good read.

To the OP,

Two ways to remove a Band-Aid: slowly and painfully, or quickly and painfully. Your choice"
[b] [/b]

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

Alright, we've heard plenty of talk of logs, right? Logs here, logs there. We're either on an episode of Ax Men or at a water treatment plant; the difference is negligible. In this thread, we have seen accusations that NPO, that BFF came up with a nonnuclear option. The insinuation, comrades, is that BFF lacked the testicular fortitude to back their allies in NEW.

This insinuation, sadly, has less of a grasp on reality than HoT. Now, for reasons of privacy and respect for the others in question, I shall not leak additional logs at this time. However, here's a summary of what we've gathered and our allies have seen:

NG: (Stewie) contacts me on the evening of the 8th with the news that NEW had aided Kaskus
BFF: Will regretfully protect NEW if NG hits NEW for aiding
MK: Private chats with MK/BFF gov, MK offers a solution of a limited engagement in the event that NEW hits NG, being that MK, NG, and NSO fight Kaskus, BFF and The International for 1 round of war. I decline this, pushing for 2 or 3 rounds. Sounds weak, I know, but I was being offered an opportunity to protect my members and my allies, and wasn't about to push my luck. This talk eventually evolves to the offer [b]to [/b]BFF of keeping said war nonnuclear.

And then we have this:
[url="http://freetexthost.com/klqyv53a3m"]http://freetexthost.com/klqyv53a3m[/url]

Enjoy everybody. The NPO situation evolved out of that.

edit: To expand, this was a non-issue. This situation was nearing a conclusion. In "helping" a friend in Kaskus, NEW $%&@ed over all their partners, along with Kaskus itself.

http://i.imgur.com/gPC9l.png

Edited January 11, 2013 by Ernesto Che Guevara