Sniper Joe Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1357937015' post='3074918']words[/quote] I don't think you understand the significance of what NEW did to us man. There was a string of incidents leading up to this that we thought made them less then great allies but we kept the treaty out of sentimentality and figured their horrid inactivity and our past relationship with them would be enough to keep them in check. We thought, in our stupidity, that they would be good to us out of respect for our relationship, even if they are known to be pretty erratic. They even promised to cancel all their treaties if they decided to go off the reservation. Then they turn around and pull this. What someone quoted earlier about the NEW guy saying they'd activate our treaty "if we didn't mind" was spun pretty hard. We had no choice in the matter. They were activating a mandatory treaty, after pulling a completely ridiculous stunt without a peep to us. It was a horrible thing to do to an ally. And yes, outside pressure was an enormous factor. I and most of BFF wanted to simply defend NEW normally. Then we had the jackals coming to us from all corners of the world trying to persuade us in their usual slimeball fashion to do something that would best serve THEIR interests. So we tried simultaneously do the right thing and please everybody. Lesson learned, never again. Edited January 11, 2013 by Sniper Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1357927209' post='3074813'] We were informed of the idea via a third party, a party whom also suggested that Non Grata might be partial to agreeing. We came to you with that background in mind. To Non Grata's credit (as I saw the contrary implied earlier and wanted to clear it up), they [i]did [/i]reject the offer.[/quote] Not sure why everyone is !@#$%footing around here. It was already mentioned earlier in this thread that the "third party" was OsRavan. [quote]We were under pressure from many sides. The DR/NPO side thought this was an elaborate DH trap. The DH side was understandably worried watching NPO's allies bulk up. Let me restate, [b]BFF was never informed of the aid until after it had been sent, and we were informed by Non Grata, not NEW. [/b]As stated in the OP, declaring an aggressive war on somebody (NSO in this case) without informing somebody who is [u]treaty-bound[/u] to defend you is putting said ally in danger, thus violating article II of this treaty. And to clarify, [b]BFF only had the limited war option if NEW hit NPO aggressively in those 7 days. [/b]All it took was NEW not declaring an aggressive war on NPO and none of that would have happened. If NEW had hit another alliance, or if NEW had been hit [i]by [/i]NPO, BFF was prepared to burn all the way down with them, beyond the 7 days if the war continued that long, until our former allies could get honorable peace. <snip> [b]As I stated above, this "backroom dealing" was only in the event that NEW went, as some say, "full retard" and aggressively declared war on NPO. [/b]Should, say, Non Grata have hit Kaskus to draw out NEW (that's a hypothetical), and NEW had hit them, full war would have resulted. Same goes for ANY other alliance. Had NPO hit NEW directly for aiding Kaskus again (if they had), and if they do any time within the next 7 days, we will burn with them until they can get an honorable peace. That is and has always been our bottom line. The problem with NEW's actions in aiding Kaskus were that they not only endangered BFF, but they endangered all those they were indirectly tied to. They put TORN in a rough spot, but I don't know what TORN is doing, but I suspect they would have defended NEW alongside us no-questions asked, despite hearing rumors to the contrary. NEW's actions endangered every alliance tied to BFF, every alliance which would have refused to e-lawyer via non-chaining clauses. As BFF has done here, we are refusing to e-lawyer our way out of defending NEW. The only supposed "criminal offense" here is protecting ourselves from a war with NPO declared aggressively. We are grateful for the mercy shown by the NPO in this case, somebody who had absolutely [i]no [/i]reason to stick their necks out for us. From a personal standpoint, Brehon acted to me in an honorable way, going above and beyond, reminding me that despite Invictagate, we are still friends and "radio" associates. [/quote] Thanks for clarifying. But why does it matter if NG hits Kaskus to pull NEW out? NPO already hit Kaskus to pull NEW out; whats the difference? [quote]Man stabs longtime friends in the back. Kaskus sees it as respectful. Man pushes longtime friend into a knife. Man tries to remove knife while still protecting friend as best as possible. Kaskus calls man coward.[/quote] An over-generalization of Kaskus and the situation as a whole. I, and others, in Kaskus believe you made the best move considering the circumstances. [quote]As soon as that first aid parcel left NEW for Kaskus, BFF was under no legal binding to so much as look NEW's way as they got hit. Instead, we chose to stick by them defensively and aggressively, with a limited option with NPO and NPO alone. Considering only two weeks ago NEW was having a serious discussion about attacking, out of the blue, both MK and VE, [b]one of whom we are treatied to directly, [/b]one cannot even pretend NEW is the innocent party here. To downgrade to ODoAP in this instance, before the war kicked off, or to flatout cancel would have been seen as bailing on an ally right before a curbstomp. After many, many days of pleading with NEW not to attack MK and kick off something stupid for the sake of "because we want to", it was only an internal debate in NEW that prevented it. They were completely disregarding the wishes of their MDAP allies. BFF bloc would not have had that problem, because BFF bloc had a veto stamp to prevent idiocy. Our problem was thinking NEW could uphold an MDAP without that safety switch. [/quote] I don't think it was going to be out of the blue. I believe there was a CB on GOONS from one of NEWs allies. NEW wanted to hit MK preemptively. [quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1357937015' post='3074918'] everyone knew of the NEW-K relationship, hell it was practically a dual-membership. they talk as a single alliance, NEW members joined K during the Goon war and some K joined NEW during Dave War iirc? correct me if i'm wrong on that?[/quote] That is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1357937973' post='3074934'] If everything is so obvious, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the events that will be happening, ummmm, let's say next Christmas. -Craig [/quote] GPA idling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1357938682' post='3074950'] Not sure why everyone is !@#$%footing around here. It was already mentioned earlier in this thread that the "third party" was OsRavan. [/quote] Except it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1357938790' post='3074954'] Except it wasn't. [/quote] Err it wasn't Ravan or it wasn't mentioned here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1357939355' post='3074963'] Err it wasn't Ravan or it wasn't mentioned here? [/quote] No. The first offer of nonnuclear came from neither NPO nor NG, and it certainly did not come from OsRavan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1357939759' post='3074970'] No. The first offer of nonnuclear came from neither NPO nor NG, and it certainly did not come from OsRavan. [/quote] I got OsRavan from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=114715&st=280#entry3074665"]this[/url] post. If that is not true then where did the nonnuclear offer come from? since you have said you will be completely honest here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1357939999' post='3074977'] I got OsRavan from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=114715&st=280#entry3074665"]this[/url] post. If that is not true then where did the nonnuclear offer come from? since you have said you will be completely honest here. [/quote] NG has already proven their inability to post here with the truth. I will speak with the person who initially came up with it (not in BFF, btw) and see if they are okay with me posting the logs here. I don't post the logs of friends without their permission. We can talk in private sometime about it, but that's the most I'll do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1357874566' post='3074427'] NEW was going to get help from BFF as long as the treaty grace period was in place. How does that not make sense? [/quote] Non-nuclear help? The best kind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brehon Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) Lets get this right... Limited engagement was offered by BFF. Non nuke didn't come from NPO or NG. AirMe thought it might have come from him, in the end it originated in the CnG Sphere (I think it was Ravan). I was willing (am willing) to do this because I have no desire to fight my allies (my reason for the DoW on Kaskus vs NEW). BFF is caught in a !@#$ position. Chax has always been good to his word with me when it was nothing important and general bs, I have no reason not to extend that respect back to him. Its that simple. All parties involved (and I mean all) are culpable. We can accept that and move on people, good lord. Edited January 11, 2013 by Brehon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 i think we all just need to have a beer and a hug and cuddle this horrible war and radiation pain away. what say you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brehon Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I dunno Ken you let me know this is all my fault and I am the reason it has escalated... so you tell me voice of Kaskus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 alright its all youre fault im pregnent i expect aid packages as child support. but other then that were all at fault for playing the game how its suppose to be played through psychosis, treason, lying and betrayl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brehon Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Typically your humor sucks... that was funny however Not my baby... clearly you need to look at NEW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) $%&@ why am i such a s%$:&&t oh well single motherhood here i come. and thanks i have my moments kenocore 1 brehon 168 catching up! Edited January 11, 2013 by KenoCore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote]01[18:06] <Chax[BFF|Gov]> we get peace, back out, let NG/NPO/whomever &^%* the #@!$ out of NEW[/quote] That is the most contemptible thing I have read since 2010 my nation declared itself. Never in my life would I have thought to see you say this. You had every right to cancel on NEW, you had no right to negotiate a deal that would see you get early peace by offering up NEW on a platter. My god man, what happened to you guys?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='KenoCore' timestamp='1357945832' post='3075026'] $%&@ why am i such a s%$:&&t oh well single motherhood here i come. and thanks i have my moments kenocore 1 brehon 168 catching up! [/quote] I smell a comeback!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='berbers' timestamp='1357945945' post='3075027'] That is the most contemptible thing I have read since 2010 my nation declared itself. Never in my life would I have thought to see you say this. You had every right to cancel on NEW, you had no right to negotiate a deal that would see you get early peace by offering up NEW on a platter. My god man, what happened to you guys?!?! [/quote] I had the exact same reaction to that, haha. Decided in the end not to post anything because at least he posted the logs in their full and was honest about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1357946944' post='3075037'] I had the exact same reaction to that, haha. Decided in the end not to post anything because at least he posted the logs in their full and was honest about it. [/quote] Honestly, I'd almost have rather not read them. I am sick to my virtual stomach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster83 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) [quote name='berbers' timestamp='1357947244' post='3075039'] Honestly, I'd almost have rather not read them. I am sick to my virtual stomach. [/quote] I don't see why you are surprised... I assume your interaction with some of the individuals involved is limited heh. Edited January 11, 2013 by Robster83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1357946944' post='3075037'] I had the exact same reaction to that, haha. Decided in the end not to post anything because at least he posted the logs in their full and was honest about it. [/quote] being honest about backstabbing. sounds familiar ( no reference to you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Jaym Il Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 [quote name='berbers' timestamp='1357945945' post='3075027'] That is the most contemptible thing I have read since 2010 my nation declared itself. Never in my life would I have thought to see you say this. You had every right to cancel on NEW, you had no right to negotiate a deal that would see you get early peace by offering up NEW on a platter. My god man, what happened to you guys?!?! [/quote] wait what, how is fighting for 2 or 3 rounds then getting peace offering NEW up on a platter versus straight up cancelling and letting NEW get rolled alone right out of the gate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 [quote name='Kim Jaym Il' timestamp='1357949554' post='3075066'] wait what, how is fighting for 2 or 3 rounds then getting peace offering NEW up on a platter versus straight up cancelling and letting NEW get rolled alone right out of the gate? [/quote] id rather have them be honest and say were throwing you out of a moving car right now then say were going to get up to speed then throw you out. but hey no hard feelings right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigelopisan Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I'm the one who against NEW joined BFF and this is the reason. [color=#505050][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3] <Chax[BFF|Gov]> we get peace, back out, let NG/NPO/whomever $%&@ the !@#$ out of NEW[/size][/font][/color] Holy !@#$, I wish I can enter NEW private channel and do my wakakakaka spell for 48 hours straight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenoCore Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 wakakakakakakakak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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