Declaration from Vox Populi

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1345079313' post='3022283']
Not always true.
[/quote]

Please do tell. I won't be offended; I mused out that theory as I typed out the last post

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345081011' post='3022295']
Please do tell. I won't be offended; I mused out that theory as I typed out the last post
[/quote]
There's a few of us around here.

[Nintenderek]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1345059069' post='3022198']
More like:
Declaration from Vox Populi
[i]The Struggle For Modern Relevance Continues[/i]
[/quote]

The funny thing about relevancy is how irrelevant it actually is.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1345085211' post='3022320']
There's a few of us around here.
[/quote]

No offense Starry, but I wouldn't classify you as an "insider"

[kwell]

Oh Schat, it's good to see you back However, if you are trying to paint MK and Company as the new Hegemony you are sadly mistaken. Since the fall of NPO, we have seen a world where every color is raid-able and every alliance has the opportunity to reside on any color they would like. Reps are quickly becoming a thing of the past. What else would you like to see in this new world?

VE made their decision without outside interference; they are an independent alliance capable of making their own decisions. Any decision that they made regarding their foreign affairs was a product of their own desired foreign affairs path guided solely by their own beliefs/personalities/ideals/nature. VE is a sovereign alliance and anyone believing otherwise is an idiot or has serious delusional beliefs about what it means to be an alliance. Take their actions as you will, but it is their action, their choice.

Your perceived agenda would lead to a world where NPO would regain power, power in which they have abused. This is not eternal warefare, this is punishment for their past crimes. I remember the red senate. I remember a team that was dominated by a single alliance willing to inflict punishment on anyone who dared start an alliance or raid a nation on their color. I remember PZI and Eternal ZI. I remember watching FAN burn for 2 years. I remember reps. NPO deserved to be burned. NPO has done it's time, so to speak, however we should be wary of their past crimes much like a convicted felon. They may not deserve to be punished now, however they shouldn't be in a position to inflict punishment on others.

Planet bob needs an enemy, and NPO played it's part well. Vox Populi played the part of a judge as the rest of us played the part of the jurors. Is their predicament fair? I believe that someone already answered this question in this thread; let us forgive, but we won't forget. Do not forget NPO's past crimes nor allow them to gain significant influence. Their past speaks for their present. Can a convicted felon regain societal trust once they are released from prison? That is a mater of perception, however, everyone can agree that their past behavior influences how others should treat them in the present and future.

[Owned-You]

By the time the Pacifican power structure began to crumble upon itself, it had for the most part ceded the airways completely over to the opposition. I recall there being a year-long radio silence where members of NPO were prohibited from posting on the forums so as to prevent any further degrading of their PR standing on the OWF and by the time that was lifted the PR war was already well out of their reach.

So this romanticized idea of glorious debates being put forward from around that period is misleading. Walls of text were being posted in opposition to the Hegemony but there simply was not much credible opposition defending against those stances at that point. Vox and other opposition for the most part had the keys to the city and posted without much opposition. At one point Pacifica made a desperate attempt to reclaim some of the lost grounds by having Vladimir and some other less notable Pacificans actively debating on behalf of the Hegemony. But for the most part the arguments they made were easily discredited as propaganda pieces or diluted to the point where they fell on deaf ears as rambling texts of rubbish.

The real glory days of debates and political discussion came about in 2006-2007 ...not the time period of Vox. So while many of you are enjoying the nostalgic trip to the Voxian era let's not get too ahead of ourselves in proclaiming it the golden era of discussion.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345088618' post='3022334']
Oh Schat, it's good to see you back However, if you are trying to paint MK and Company as the new Hegemony you are sadly mistaken. Since the fall of NPO, we have seen a world where every color is raid-able and every alliance has the opportunity to reside on any color they would like. Reps are quickly becoming a thing of the past. What else would you like to see in this new world?

VE made their decision without outside interference; they are an independent alliance capable of making their own decisions. Any decision that they made regarding their foreign affairs was a product of their own desired foreign affairs path guided solely by their own beliefs/personalities/ideals/nature. VE is a sovereign alliance and anyone believing otherwise is an idiot or has serious delusional beliefs about what it means to be an alliance. Take their actions as you will, but it is their action, their choice.

Your perceived agenda would lead to a world where NPO would regain power, power in which they have abused. This is not eternal warefare, this is punishment for their past crimes. I remember the red senate. I remember a team that was dominated by a single alliance willing to inflict punishment on anyone who dared start an alliance or raid a nation on their color. I remember PZI and Eternal ZI. I remember watching FAN burn for 2 years. I remember reps. NPO deserved to be burned. NPO has done it's time, so to speak, however we should be wary of their past crimes much like a convicted felon. They may not deserve to be punished now, however they shouldn't be in a position to inflict punishment on others.

Planet bob needs an enemy, and NPO played it's part well. Vox Populi played the part of a judge as the rest of us played the part of the jurors. Is their predicament fair? I believe that someone already answered this question in this thread; let us forgive, but we won't forget. Do not forget NPO's past crimes nor allow them to gain significant influence. Their past speaks for their present. Can a convicted felon regain societal trust once they are released from prison? That is a mater of perception, however, everyone can agree that their past behavior influences how others should treat them in the present and future.
[/quote]
This is all correct. We need Vox Populi once again to counter the surging Pacifican threat, lest they return to destroy us all.

[kwell]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1345090414' post='3022339']
This is all correct. We need Vox Populi once again to counter the surging Pacifican threat, lest they return to destroy us all.
[/quote]
Never trust a convicted felon. They may pay their dues, but their past should never be forgotten. We may forgive, and we may work together, but your past has shown us what you are capable of. Pacifica may not be in her prime, but she is hungry for vengeance. She is an aging beauty queen turned cougar by time. The men she lured in see her as the desperate whore she really is; she will always sell out to the highest bidder.

Edited August 16, 2012 by kwell

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345088618' post='3022334']
Oh Schat, it's good to see you back However, if you are trying to paint MK and Company as the new Hegemony you are sadly mistaken. Since the fall of NPO, we have seen a world where every color is raid-able and every alliance has the opportunity to reside on any color they would like. Reps are quickly becoming a thing of the past. What else would you like to see in this new world?

VE made their decision without outside interference; they are an independent alliance capable of making their own decisions. Any decision that they made regarding their foreign affairs was a product of their own desired foreign affairs path guided solely by their own beliefs/personalities/ideals/nature. VE is a sovereign alliance and anyone believing otherwise is an idiot or has serious delusional beliefs about what it means to be an alliance. Take their actions as you will, but it is their action, their choice.

Your perceived agenda would lead to a world where NPO would regain power, power in which they have abused. This is not eternal warefare, this is punishment for their past crimes. I[b] remember[/b] the red senate. I [b]remember[/b] a team that was dominated by a single alliance willing to inflict punishment on anyone who dared start an alliance or raid a nation on their color. I [b]remember[/b] PZI and Eternal ZI. I [b]remember[/b] watching FAN burn for 2 years. I [b]remember[/b] reps. NPO deserved to be burned. NPO has done it's time, so to speak, however we should be wary of their past crimes much like a convicted felon. They may not deserve to be punished now, however they shouldn't be in a position to inflict punishment on others.

Planet bob needs an enemy, and NPO played it's part well. Vox Populi played the part of a judge as the rest of us played the part of the jurors. Is their predicament fair? I believe that someone already answered this question in this thread; let us forgive, but we won't forget. Do not forget NPO's past crimes nor allow them to gain significant influence. Their past speaks for their present. Can a convicted felon regain societal trust once they are released from prison? That is a mater of perception, however, everyone can agree that their past behavior influences how others should treat them in the present and future.
[/quote]

I remember when MK accepted Dave93 in order to create a CB for a matter which had been already resolved.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Tasuki]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345093283' post='3022351']
Never trust a convicted felon. They may pay their dues, but their past should never be forgotten. We may forgive, and we may work together, but your past has shown us what you are capable of. Pacifica may not be in her prime, but she is hungry for vengeance. She is an aging beauty queen turned cougar by time. The men she lured in see her as the desperate whore she really is; she will always sell out to the highest bidder.
[/quote]

I agree. NPO is now a cougar and deserves to be rolled again.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1345094507' post='3022355']
I remember when MK accepted Dave93 in order to create a CB for a matter which had been already resolved.
[/quote]

Those of us interested in another war against XX/SF--note that this desire was caused by the fact that Sparta, GOD, and RnR escaped major damage in the war previous--were going to find a CB. And because nobody is stupid enough to provide a strong CB these days, it would have been one that some people would have disagreed with. As such, what happened to be the CB used in the actual event is rather unimportant. Such are our times. Nothing would ever happen in CN anymore if we all sat around waiting for watertight CBs.

Would you have preferred that it be a "We don't think you took enough damage in the last war" CB? I suppose that could have been used also. I'm sure you get the point either way: political CBs are a thing of the past.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Crymson

[IYIyTh]

And then he said...
[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1345051545' post='3022178']we no longer feel the need to defend SF/XX.
[/quote]

:laughtrack:

Edited August 16, 2012 by IYIyTh

[potato]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1345072353' post='3022257']
Yes, but that was what, 5 years ago? In the Vox era, political discourse was as good as it ever was. NPO was rightly out to debate all of it's enemies, along with their allies. These days, you couldn't get a debate out of the MK troll squad if you paid them. The stage in general features all too many people quick to insults, who mistake speaking out as a PR error, or something that makes you unintelligent. I've never really seen Archon out to debate NPO in their prime. If I recall, didn't you guys sign a treaty with NPO whilst we in Vox fought? Denial was just ages ago, so that's just grasping at straws. Most certainly, MK only led the backroom resistance.

And look, I was sharked. So, yes, I remember.
[/quote]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I admit my "theory" is probably biased and I never said our side had the best posters (although I do think, comparatively, we are largly superior). I just think the opposition against NPO was better than the one vs MK. You're free to disagree. If the general level of political discourse was higher, as opposed to the cheap shots, half truthes, lack of logic and blattant lies those I mentionned spread, then you'd find less of a troll squad and more of a political discourse.
I'll give you it probably goes both ways but look at it from my perspective: we make an announcement (whatever it is), the opposition comes in, hinges on every word and goes 'omg ur eeveel!1!!" and you expect us to answer in a polite and intelligent manner? Come to us with some sort of response and you'll get a proper counter.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345093283' post='3022351']
Never trust a convicted felon. They may pay their dues, but their past should never be forgotten. We may forgive, and we may work together, but your past has shown us what you are capable of. Pacifica may not be in her prime, but she is hungry for vengeance. She is an aging beauty queen turned cougar by time. The men she lured in see her as the desperate whore she really is; she will always sell out to the highest bidder.
[/quote]
Well a convicted felon isn't consisted of hundreds of players and a government that has changed several times since he was convicted. This is why if you don't know how to properly make analogies, you shouldn't do it.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1345127195' post='3022422']
Well a convicted felon isn't consisted of hundreds of players and a government that has changed several times since he was convicted. This is why if you don't know how to properly make analogies, you shouldn't do it.
[/quote]

The analogy of NPO to a felon might not hold up, but the idea that Pacifica exists today on a probationary status definitely does. You were released from MK's custody on good behavior, and now as long as you toe the line, you won't get rolled again. It's pretty straightforward really. Also, it's no uncommon nor unreasonable in analogies to treat alliances as singular individuals, since that's how they behave on the global stage.

[corazon]

[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345088618' post='3022334']I remember reps.
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109189"]Me too.[/url]

Edited August 16, 2012 by corazon

[Mergerberger II]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345088618' post='3022334'] I remember the red senate. I remember a team that was dominated by a single alliance willing to inflict punishment on anyone who dared start an alliance or raid a nation on their color. I remember PZI and Eternal ZI. I remember watching FAN burn for 2 years. I remember reps. NPO deserved to be burned. NPO has done it's time, so to speak, however we should be wary of their past crimes much like a convicted felon.
[/quote]


I remember when MK took gargantuan reps from TOP. I remember when bros spied on the alliances he ran websites for. I remember the ghostbust of Kait and Hoo. I remember when they trolled Assarax. I remember the support of alliance-level tech raids. I remember the use of the same CB that started the Karma War. I remember when they accepted someone on a ZI list so that they could start a war. I remember when they declared on Pacifica without reason. I remember when they trolled a good friend of mine into deletion. I remember the support of OOC attacks. I remember the wars declared for no reason. I remember the enormous reps levied on alliances that were merely defending themselves. I remember the undying support of the recklessness of their allies. [/size][/font]

I remember when MK promised to create a brave new world, then turned around and became worse than NPO.

In what way is this world better than the one Pacifica ruled?

[Daimos]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345127666' post='3022424']
The analogy of NPO to a felon might not hold up, but the idea that Pacifica exists today on a probationary status definitely does. You were released from MK's custody on good behavior, and now as long as you toe the line, you won't get rolled again. It's pretty straightforward really. Also, it's no uncommon nor unreasonable in analogies to treat alliances as singular individuals, since that's how they behave on the global stage.
[/quote]

Are you implying NPO exist today because MK allows it?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1345070415' post='3022247']
In the past, whether you agree with them or not, you had people like Archon, Denial, Schatt, Tyga... who could and would argue against the powers that be. Look at what MK is left with: people like d34th, Alterego, IYIyth, King Wally, SCY... who, when they are not spouting moronic lies and drooling all over themselves, are just being contrarian for the sake of looking cool by sticking it to the man.
[/quote]
In the past, when a serious thread was posted, there were always quick replies by people who either didn't have the desire or ability to get into a serious debate, but they were generally peons and people no one ever heard of, and real discussion was going on. Now, you, Archon, and many others are all the time saying you wish that the opposition wasn't so inept and that they posted better; however, every time you get that, you don't do anythign with it. Look at this thread, it's not even an argument against MK, GOONS or any of your periphery, and yet a parade of Umbrell, TOP, and GOONS personal attacks regarding whether or not Schattenmann is still relevant (PS: if you have to ask, the answer is yes). And it's not silly little peons who don't have the capacity to actully discuss this thread.
Plus a 1.5-page diversion on the topic of GOONS persecution complex after people started reacting to GOONS own goal of making people hate them.

I don't like the meta-argument about dscourse level, but I am genuinely baffled when you guys bring it up, especially in an exemplary thread like this where you--Potato--personally might not be doing it, but the people you're representing basically make this a matter of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Recently, after a year of OsRavan PMing and querying me a request for an "intellectual talk" every time we butted heads on the OWF, I opened just such a talk with him in my blog (link in my signature). Go on and read his reply, Potato. You'll find out such scintillating scandals as Schattenmann uses OOC attacks to run anyone he doesn't like out of the game, and CoJ's style is destroying the world. But no examples.

When the topic inspires me, I've tried to maintain my [i]Pax Pacifica [/i]and Vox-era proclivity to active, topical debate. There's a list of threads on my wiki. Open any one, and you'll find that when given the opportunities you say you want, the topic you guys respond to is rarely what I'm saying, but who I am.

You say you want real political discourse, you all deliver hurrdurr, OOC attacks, and weird fetishes over relevence.
[hr]
[quote name='kwell' timestamp='1345088618' post='3022334']
Oh Schat, it's good to see you back However, if you are trying to paint MK and Company as the new Hegemony you are sadly mistaken. Since the fall of NPO, we have seen a world where every color is raid-able and every alliance has the opportunity to reside on any color they would like. Reps are quickly becoming a thing of the past. What else would you like to see in this new world?

VE made their decision without outside interference; they are an independent alliance capable of making their own decisions. Any decision that they made regarding their foreign affairs was a product of their own desired foreign affairs path guided solely by their own beliefs/personalities/ideals/nature. VE is a sovereign alliance and anyone believing otherwise is an idiot or has serious delusional beliefs about what it means to be an alliance. Take their actions as you will, but it is their action, their choice.

Your perceived agenda would lead to a world where NPO would regain power, power in which they have abused. This is not eternal warefare, this is punishment for their past crimes. I remember the red senate. I remember a team that was dominated by a single alliance willing to inflict punishment on anyone who dared start an alliance or raid a nation on their color. I remember PZI and Eternal ZI. I remember watching FAN burn for 2 years. I remember reps. NPO deserved to be burned. NPO has done it's time, so to speak, however we should be wary of their past crimes much like a convicted felon. They may not deserve to be punished now, however they shouldn't be in a position to inflict punishment on others.

Planet bob needs an enemy, and NPO played it's part well. Vox Populi played the part of a judge as the rest of us played the part of the jurors. Is their predicament fair? I believe that someone already answered this question in this thread; let us forgive, but we won't forget. Do not forget NPO's past crimes nor allow them to gain significant influence. Their past speaks for their present. Can a convicted felon regain societal trust once they are released from prison? That is a mater of perception, however, everyone can agree that their past behavior influences how others should treat them in the present and future.
[/quote]
I began actively working with NPO a few weeks after I founded CoJ post-Vox, and as a person who bucked the tactic of [i]Pax Pacifica[/i]-style isolation of NPO, I find this sort of reply silly. I have for 3 years.

This is a bait-and-switch. It's the clever tactic of the Pacifican Boogeyman to allow the true threat to go on unchallenged. I'm sorry, kwell, it may have taken everyone else longer than CoJ, but we've gotten to the point where it's just not going to work anymore.

Now, don't mistake me, the Pacifican Reckoning is coming, but it's not coming because NPO is intrinsically evil, it's coming because you guys kicked NPO while they were down for 3 years.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345127666' post='3022424']
The analogy of NPO to a felon might not hold up, but the idea that Pacifica exists today on a probationary status definitely does. You were released from MK's custody on good behavior, and now as long as you toe the line, you won't get rolled again. It's pretty straightforward really. Also, it's no uncommon nor unreasonable in analogies to treat alliances as singular individuals, since that's how they behave on the global stage.
[/quote]
If you're going to make analogies, you need to have the relevant pieces of logic line up. In this case, we are discussing the mental inclination of felons to stick with the same behavior before and after prison. This doesn't hold true for an alliance because alliances are constantly changing personalities and inclinations. It's more apt, in this case, to compare an alliance with a corporation or a nation.

And I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your arguments because you have no evidence to back it up, and you're simply more interested in simplifying narratives rather than delving into the intricacies of how events really happened. You are free to believe whatever bs you want, but don't cry about it when most of us refuse to listen to you.

[potato]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1345131755' post='3022434']
In the past, when a serious thread was posted, there were always quick replies by people who either didn't have the desire or ability to get into a serious debate, but they were generally peons and people no one ever heard of, and real discussion was going on. Now, you, Archon, and many others are all the time saying you wish that the opposition wasn't so inept and that they posted better; however, every time you get that, you don't do anythign with it. Look at this thread, it's not even an argument against MK, GOONS or any of your periphery, and yet a parade of Umbrell, TOP, and GOONS personal attacks regarding whether or not Schattenmann is still relevant (PS: if you have to ask, the answer is yes). And it's not silly little peons who don't have the capacity to actully discuss this thread.
Plus a 1.5-page diversion on the topic of GOONS persecution complex after people started reacting to GOONS own goal of making people hate them.

I don't like the meta-argument about dscourse level, but I am genuinely baffled when you guys bring it up, especially in an exemplary thread like this where you--Potato--personally might not be doing it, but the people you're representing basically make this a matter of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Recently, after a year of OsRavan PMing and querying me a request for an "intellectual talk" every time we butted heads on the OWF, I opened just such a talk with him in my blog (link in my signature). Go on and read his reply, Potato. You'll find out such scintillating scandals as Schattenmann uses OOC attacks to run anyone he doesn't like out of the game, and CoJ's style is destroying the world. But no examples.

When the topic inspires me, I've tried to maintain my [i]Pax Pacifica [/i]and Vox-era proclivity to active, topical debate. There's a list of threads on my wiki. Open any one, and you'll find that when given the opportunities you say you want, the topic you guys respond to is rarely what I'm saying, but who I am.

You say you want real political discourse, you all deliver hurrdurr, OOC attacks, and weird fetishes over relevence.
[/quote]

I don't think I ever said we weren't at fault. As I said, I'm probably biased in saying that but I do find the current opposition to be dumber than the former one. There's a reason why people like Archon and Denial (and even myself if I may be as bold as to put myself up in that list alongside them) have pretty much left the OWF. Trolls (from both sides) are running the place and I have my hand in it since I am one of the biggest culprits around here.
What I am saying is political discourse is dead these days. But if you really want it to come back, both sides will have to work hand in hand (lol :sissies:). And I do think if it's one thing the opposition can do, it's start an intelligent discourse (see Vox to an extend). Don't let the usual dumb loudmouthes represent you, speak up if you can. Someone's got to start somewhere. And you'll see we'll respond in kind.

Schatt, you know well I am long retired and have very little interest in the affairs of this world. And you know me well enough to know that if someone is worthy of respect, he'll get it from me, regardless of sides. But you can't fault me for what my allies say. Contrary to popular beliefs, MK doesn't control what GOONS, Umbrella, TOP or ODN say. I certainly wouldn't mind if we did sometimes but the fact remains, we don't.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1345103044' post='3022371']
Those of us interested in another war against XX/SF--note that this desire was caused by the fact that Sparta, GOD, and RnR escaped major damage in the war previous--were going to find a CB. And because nobody is stupid enough to provide a strong CB these days, it would have been one that some people would have disagreed with. As such, what happened to be the CB used in the actual event is rather unimportant. Such are our times. Nothing would ever happen in CN anymore if we all sat around waiting for watertight CBs.

Would you have preferred that it be a[b] "We don't think you took enough damage in the last war"[/b] CB? I suppose that could have been used also. I'm sure you get the point either way: political CBs are a thing of the past.
[/quote]

The real issue is not the crappy CB. Peace was offered & peace was accepted. The peace was a lie, it was never intended to he honoured. Offering peace while intending to beat the alliance down again for no reason is a eternal war and shows that the people who speak for the alliances in question lie and admit to lying after the fact when they need to hide their true intentions.

Where were we? Oh yeah. MK swear they have no intention of hitting AI. They swear they have no intention of hitting NPO again. However, this is the before period and a quick look at my sig and all the DH private comments expose the new lies for what they are

[Crymson]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1345133013' post='3022440']
The real issue is not the crappy CB. Peace was offered & peace was accepted. The peace was a lie, it was never intended to he honoured. Offering peace while intending to beat the alliance down again for no reason is a eternal war and shows that the people who speak for the alliances in question lie and admit to lying after the fact when they need to hide their true intentions. [/quote]

That argument makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, peace was offered and accepted. Political factors were involved. Many alliances still wanted to take a bite out of those alliances whom they felt had escaped damage in the previous war, and, as such, there was another war against the same parties. Deeming this eternal war is asinine. Eternal war is eternal war. This is not. And unless I'm sorely mistaken, the peace agreements in the war that ended in February did not include provisions forbidding another war. Nor were intentions for the future declared, with the sole exception being the peace between Polar and TOP.

I understand you're passionate in your dislike of MK, but the diatribe you've uttered here is completely nonsensical. Take care that your passion does not become mindless zealotry. As things stand, it appears you're headed in that direction.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1345130913' post='3022430']
I remember when MK promised to create a brave new world, then turned around and became worse than NPO.

In what way is this world better than the one Pacifica ruled?
[/quote]

The simple fact is that there is no other alliance that has ever had the level of power and influence that NPO had in the pre-Karma days, and there isn't likely to ever again be one during the remaining lifespan of CN. NPO was a huge alliance that possessed a large, powerful, and (mostly) very loyal group of allies. The latter quality was what allowed the NPO to act as it did. And the gradual alienation of those allies was a major factor in the NPO's eventual defeat. Whatever the case, neither MK nor any other alliance in the game has that sort of loyal sphere willing to follow them in all things. I'm sure that many find it convenient to believe that one party is responsible for all of the large-scale actions in CN that they find distasteful--your alliance, for example, blamed the occurrence of the War of the Coalition exclusively on TOP--but such is generally an insensible belief. Where this particular instance of it is concerned, MK does not wield nearly so much influence as you and others amongst MK's detractors believe. I understand that you cannot see what goes on behind the scenes in certain areas and that this naturally limits your ability to know exactly how things go down, so to speak, and this is of course the case for many others as well (Alterego amongst them). What it comes down to, as such, is whether or not you choose to believe what those who do know tell you, or if you instead choose to believe what you wish to believe regardless of what information is presented to you.

I do, of course, agree that the doctrine preached by the Karma coalition during the war of that name was not borne out in reality. This is hardly surprising, given that it was PR-based propaganda and given the nature of CN. That said, the list of alliances in the Karma coalition that did not abide by said doctrine is very long. Of course--as noted--it's always tempting to simplify such affairs down to one party in order to provide a defined focus.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Crymson

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1345130913' post='3022430']
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I remember when MK took gargantuan reps from TOP. I remember when bros spied on the alliances he ran websites for. I remember the ghostbust of Kait and Hoo. I remember when they trolled Assarax. I remember the support of alliance-level tech raids. I remember the use of the same CB that started the Karma War. I remember when they accepted someone on a ZI list so that they could start a war. I remember when they declared on Pacifica without reason. I remember when they trolled a good friend of mine into deletion. I remember the support of OOC attacks. I remember the wars declared for no reason. I remember the enormous reps levied on alliances that were merely defending themselves. I remember the undying support of the recklessness of their allies. [/size][/font]

I remember when MK promised to create a brave new world, then turned around and became worse than NPO.

In what way is this world better than the one Pacifica ruled?
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Good examples, but I think if anything though they are a testament to a job well done. At least in my opinion it is the responsibility of those with power to act with it and cause wars and drama around here. Would you really prefer a benevolent hegemon, enforcing peace throughout the land, completely reasonable and fair, never prosecuting a grudge or political agenda. A true Pax Pacifica where we all grew our nations in peace and sang kumbaya? Of course not, you need someone to play the villain. Side note though, whatever happened to Assarax? Haven't heard that name in years, such a nice chap.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Lord Fingolfin