Which alliance is the biggest MK lapdog?

[King Louis the II]

I think it is really funny when many umbrellians (which in fact I still care for)OptionalDNs and others say that the war that ruined our relations was basically about God and NpO and that XX was only collateral damage...I heard so many times from MKers and others that XX was a problem because had a lot of NS and could change the result of a war between more proactive spheres.

So when OsRavan says that optionalDN was only following the chains that is complete BS. C&G decided to ignore the treaties with R&R and Sparta to pick other allies. Internoptional did the same this war.

So Basically there is no point to sign a treaty with a C&G alliance because at the end of the day they will completely ignore it to do whatever they want. Which curiously, is always what MK wants...what a coincidence...

The only one that I say that is different is TLR, it is the only one that has balls and are vocal in what they want. In this particular case it looks that their goals casually allign with MK. The others are exactly what the OP is about.

[itseZe]

Let me see if I got this right.
Your bloc launched an attack on an ally of CnG. You expected ODN to support your bloc's aggression against an ally of CnG over defending said ally of CnG?

I don't think I can even attempt to argue with your impeccable logic.

[keeology]

[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1342573189' post='3011333']
Let me see if I got this right.
Your bloc launched an attack on an ally of CnG. You expected ODN to support your bloc's aggression against an ally of CnG over defending said ally of CnG?

I don't think I can even attempt to argue with your impeccable logic.
[/quote]

that logic can be used to attack NoR. but NoR is only fighting LSF. just saying

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
How fast Roq was promoted really has little to do with the matter. Roq will quickly move up any alliance he's in, umbrella [formerly] included. Relative instability is arguable, a loose cannon is a loose cannon. I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.
[/quote]

That you believe Umbrella is an alliance that seeks to control others has me convinced you don't know the first thing about Umbrella and why the Sparta and Umbrellan relationship turned south not long after Roquentin's admittance into Sparta and near instant promotion into your government. Sparta was well aware of the falling out between Umbrella and Roquentin and his desire to use any means necessary to strike at Umbrella, but he was promoted anyway. I won't fault the man for using his position for his personal goals but Sparta shot themselves in the foot with the series of bad decisions they have made, one of which being Roquentin. Sparta had to be aware of what he would do once given a megaphone and any semblance of authority. I [i]suspect[/i] that Sparta did that because they did not value their friendship with Umbrella, which isn't the hallmark of a good ally.

I can understand that Sparta is bitter for the way things turned out for you but you only have yourselves to blame. Every decision you have made has landed you here. Instead of blaming everyone else for your mistakes by calling them lapdogs and acting like the victim, perhaps you could try [i]not[/i] making idiotic decisions that cause you and your allies so much grief.

[Monster]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1342574330' post='3011342']
That you believe Umbrella is an alliance that seeks to control others has me convinced you don't know the first thing about Umbrella and why the Sparta and Umbrellan relationship turned south not long after Roquentin's admittance into Sparta and near instant promotion into your government. Sparta was well aware of the falling out between Umbrella and Roquentin and his desire to use any means necessary to strike at Umbrella, but he was promoted anyway. I won't fault the man for using his position for his personal goals but Sparta shot themselves in the foot with the series of bad decisions they have made, one of which being Roquentin. Sparta had to be aware of what he would do once given a megaphone and any semblance of authority. I [i]suspect[/i] that Sparta did that because they did not value their friendship with Umbrella, which isn't the hallmark of a good ally.

I can understand that Sparta is bitter for the way things turned out for you but you only have yourselves to blame. Every decision you have made has landed you here. Instead of blaming everyone else for your mistakes by calling them lapdogs and acting like the victim, perhaps you could try [i]not[/i] making idiotic decisions that cause you and your allies so much grief.
[/quote]
clarificatory comment since you insist on continuing to bring me up

If you seriously think it turned south [i]after[/i], you aren't really aware of the dynamics of the situation. What Enamel pointed out is that the relationship was already bad because there were preexisting tensions. I think you're the one who's stretching it beyond his knowledge elvel. So given the Sparta-Umbrella relationship was already something they couldn't count on and were going to downgrade/cancel as enamel already said.

It made sense to promote me because I was actually putting work into benefit the alliance, which is why he made the point that I'd get promoted pretty quickly. Merit, in other words. I don't think it could be denied that I'm willing to invest significant effort int alliances.

Plenty of people were aware of the possibility of Sparta cancelling and Luka had even delivered Johnny notice of a downgrade before, which he did his best to delay.

I mean, you do realize they cancelled on ODN during the war that preceded for similar reasons, right?

edit:
But the main point as he said is it was already bad. It was temporarily prolonged and then the events took place that you're referring to. I'll let enamel handle further clarification.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Roquentin

[itseZe]

[quote name='keeology' timestamp='1342573556' post='3011337']
that logic can be used to attack NoR. but NoR is only fighting LSF. just saying
[/quote]

I don't see how it is relevant to the subject, but if you want to discuss who should be viewed as the aggressor in that conflict hit me up on IRC later tonight.

None of that changes what happened back then. Nobody in their right mind should have "expect" CnG to let NPO burn simply because NPO posted that they will follow their treaties. And that's apparently what we should have done according to him (and you?).

[Prodigal Moon]

[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1342573189' post='3011333']
Let me see if I got this right.
Your bloc launched an attack on an ally of CnG. You expected ODN to support your bloc's aggression against an ally of CnG over defending said ally of CnG?

I don't think I can even attempt to argue with your impeccable logic.
[/quote]
I don't really care about the whole Sparta thing, but this statement is pretty funny considering you have C&G directly attacking an ally of C&G in the current war.

[itseZe]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1342579981' post='3011406']
I don't really care about the whole Sparta thing, but this statement is pretty funny considering you have C&G directly attacking an ally of C&G in the current war.
[/quote]

I must have missed the part where RnR got attacked out of the blue

Allies fighting on different sides happens quite frequently, and usually friendships survive that. Us and GATO went through the same thing and look where we are now.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
How fast Roq was promoted really has little to do with the matter. Roq will quickly move up any alliance he's in, umbrella [formerly] included. Relative instability is arguable, a loose cannon is a loose cannon. I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.
[/quote]

4 months before the war we stated clearly to Sparta we would not support XX in any military way but, out of respect for them and MHA, we wouldn't hit anyone in XX. Right before the war we explained you the situation. You said you were ok. During the beggining of the war we reminded you of our stance and you said you were ok. Into the war you made a public request for help at your embassy in our forums. We thought you were idiots and lacked the balls to maintain what you said. After the war you threatened to downgrade and cancel and we were pissed off because of the amount of !@#$ we went through because of Sparta that war, but you backed out. Then you figured out that your new victim status allowed you to get away with anything and so you enlisted Roq and supported his moves. When he took it too far we just got ride of you because, all things summed up, you had become a bad ally: you were unreliable, you didn't deliver to your allies during the war, you lacked the endurance to maintain you word, you were quick to forget the !@#$ we went through and you thought you had the right to piss us off because you thought you were a victim.

Speaking for myself, half-way there you just disgusted me. No one in Umbrella liked you anymore. And you did it all by yourself. They say a losing war has a way to reveal an alliance's true nature: and we didn't like what we saw.

EDIT: MHA on the other hand was really ok.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Lusitan

[Reyas]

[quote name='keeology' timestamp='1342573556' post='3011337']
that logic can be used to attack NoR. but NoR is only fighting LSF. just saying
[/quote]

1. LSF started it
2. You have a treaty with LSF
Just saying.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
How fast Roq was promoted really has little to do with the matter. Roq will quickly move up any alliance he's in, umbrella [formerly] included. Relative instability is arguable, a loose cannon is a loose cannon. I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.
[/quote]
Is everyone as dense as you are in your nation? Perhaps you should try weaponizing your density into advanced armors for your tanks and soldiers. Not that they'd get much use, of course.

You have no idea what the relationship between Umbrella and GOONS is, and you shouldn't embarrass yourself further by speculating.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1342569962' post='3011313']
So when OsRavan says that optionalDN was only following the chains that is complete BS. C&G decided to ignore the treaties with R&R and Sparta to pick other allies. Internoptional did the same this war.

So Basically there is no point to sign a treaty with a C&G alliance because at the end of the day they will completely ignore it to do whatever they want. Which curiously, is always what MK wants...what a coincidence...[/quote]
By this SAME logic it's not worthwhile to sign a treaty with Sparta because Sparta and XX ignored your treaties with ODN and Umbrella in favor of your other treaty partners.

I don't know why I'm bothering because this has been explained by various people several times already.

What's also funny is that you knew where ODN and Umbrella stood months before the war and then acted like it was some kind of surprise when the war actually came.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Azaghul

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342591346' post='3011519']
4 months before the war we stated clearly to Sparta we would not support XX in any military way but, out of respect for them and MHA, we wouldn't hit anyone in XX. Right before the war we explained you the situation. You said you were ok. During the beggining of the war we reminded you of our stance and you said you were ok. Into the war you made a public request for help at your embassy in our forums. We thought you were idiots and lacked the balls to maintain what you said. After the war you threatened to downgrade and cancel and we were pissed off because of the amount of !@#$ we went through because of Sparta that war, but you backed out. Then you figured out that your new victim status allowed you to get away with anything and so you enlisted Roq and supported his moves. When he took it too far we just got ride of you because, all things summed up, you had become a bad ally: you were unreliable, you didn't deliver to your allies during the war, you lacked the endurance to maintain you word, you were quick to forget the !@#$ we went through and you thought you had the right to piss us off because you thought you were a victim.

Speaking for myself, half-way there you just disgusted me. No one in Umbrella liked you anymore. And you did it all by yourself. They say a losing war has a way to reveal an alliance's true nature: and we didn't like what we saw.

EDIT: MHA on the other hand was really ok.
[/quote]

Just because they were okay with you hitting their MDoAP allies and doing yourselves the favor of not fighting what at the time you thought to be a potentially costly affair for your alliance does not mean the rest of the world has to willingly suspend reality that Umbrella has no ground to stand on when calling anyone a bad ally.

You then decided that you could control the sovereign affairs of your allies in one sphere and decided to scapegoat Roq after it was clear you had intended to knife both Sparta and MHA in the back for some time.

Revisionism and fabrication only works when you stick to the script. Your story keeps changing.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1342559833' post='3011272']
How fast Roq was promoted really has little to do with the matter. Roq will quickly move up any alliance he's in, umbrella [formerly] included. Relative instability is arguable, a loose cannon is a loose cannon. I wouldn't say Roq soured the relations between Umbrella and Sparta. Roq soured relations between Roq and Umbrella. After Sparta threatened to downgrade/cancel Umb, I suspect Umbrella realized Sparta was out of their control and wanted any excuse to give them the satisfaction of the cancellation. Roq was by association, the fastest and easiest answer to all the problems MK had been whispering in their ear about. [/quote]

If I'm interpreting what you are getting at correctly, actually any place Roq went after Umbrella not called 'GOONS' or 'Mushroom Kingdom' was likely to have a FA problem where Umbrella was concerned. It was a bitter divorce and there was much dirty laundry aired to the delight of thousands. It was just a question of whether that destination was worth trying to pressure into giving him up. Could be Sparta-Umbrella relations were already on the skids, but that relations went sour at that moment wasn't just a coincidence. Also I doubt that any sort of dog chain was held by Umbrella around Sparta's neck at any point. Umbrella already has an alliance it can call on to throw lower tier nations into the mix on call.

[quote]Goons are lucky they still drink the kool-aid, or else they could find a reason, as outrageous as Rey, a source of contention.[/quote]

Too much co-dependence between Umbrella and GOONS for any one person to cause trouble. Umbrella needs the favorable tech deals they get from GOONS to maintain their tech edge and GOONS needs Umbrella's cash to...well...fight beyond simple, short tech raids. If one disappeared, the other would be on the endangered list. One might also ask how Mushroom Kingdom fits into that mix, and essentially they are "Umbrella Light" these days--though their dependence on GOONS isn't quite so strong. The good news in that is that they have the ability to find new friends and shift FA policy as required, and they have done so repeatedly the past few years. Perhaps it could be argued that Umbrella and GOONS needs MK a lot more than MK needs Umbrella and GOONS. Should MK lose that FA agility and become totally dependent upon the DH bloc, they are likely screwed.

Sorry, Sardonic I'm speculating without permission. Would you like a crying towel?

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1342632535' post='3011656']
Too much co-dependence between Umbrella and GOONS for any one person to cause trouble. Umbrella needs the favorable tech deals they get from GOONS to maintain their tech edge and GOONS needs Umbrella's cash to...well...fight beyond simple, short tech raids. If one disappeared, the other would be on the endangered list. One might also ask how Mushroom Kingdom fits into that mix, and essentially they are "Umbrella Light" these days--though their dependence on GOONS isn't quite so strong. The good news in that is that they have the ability to find new friends and shift FA policy as required, and they have done so repeatedly the past few years. Perhaps it could be argued that Umbrella and GOONS needs MK a lot more than MK needs Umbrella and GOONS. Should MK lose that FA agility and become totally dependent upon the DH bloc, they are likely screwed.

Sorry, Sardonic I'm speculating without permission. Would you like a crying towel?
[/quote]
Man if you didn't have that dripping bias towards GOONS being "lapdog" status you would be close to right.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='myself']
you shouldn't embarrass yourself further by speculating.
[/quote]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1342632535' post='3011656']
Lots of embarrassing, ,speculation
[/quote]
Great work there champ, you figured out that GOONS and Umbrella have a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. Something the rest of the world has only known for years now.

Your speculation about us needing MK for FA purposes is way, way off base though.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1342642360' post='3011753']
Your speculation about us needing MK for FA purposes is way, way off base though.
[/quote]

Only one way to prove that. I anxiously await the cancellation thread, though I know it will never come from you.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1342648073' post='3011783']
Only one way to prove that. I anxiously await the cancellation thread, though I know it will never come from you.
[/quote]
We're going to cancel on one of our closest allies to appease Chairman Hal. Right.

[Ogaden]

It's not so much that Umbrella and GOONS have no FA policy, it's just that they are content to be largely passive enablers, two engines hooked up to MK's ambition, which drives them fast and slow, left and right like a steering wheel.

This is hardly unique, there are very few "Drivers" on planet Bob, most alliances (even very large, powerful or militarily capable alliances) are in the "passive enabler" category, content to provide horsepower to someone else's agenda.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Ogaden

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1342632535' post='3011656']

Sorry, Sardonic I'm speculating without permission. Would you like a crying towel?
[/quote]

No but you can write a book about it and we'll proof read it.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1342664597' post='3011932']
No but you can write a book about it and we'll proof read it.[/quote]

Cool, though in keeping with theme of the Ai-IRON treaty I'll compose it in Morse Code. Any resemblance between the book and a Terence Trent D'Arby song will be purely coincidental.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1342623654' post='3011608']
By this SAME logic it's not worthwhile to sign a treaty with Sparta because Sparta and XX ignored your treaties with ODN and Umbrella in favor of your other treaty partners.

I don't know why I'm bothering because this has been explained by various people several times already.

What's also funny is that you knew where ODN and Umbrella stood months before the war and then acted like it was some kind of surprise when the war actually came.
[/quote]

The difference is that Sparta and XX are NOT proactive and would never start a war. C&G and DH plots to start wars against their own members allies.
I don't known why I am bothering because this has been explained by various people several times already.....


After the war is over, it is pretty obvious who DH/C&G will start to plot against it. And it is an ally of one of C&G members.. Thats is the difference.

[quote]What's also funny is that you knew where ODN and Umbrella stood months before the war and then acted like it was some kind of surprise when the war actually came. [/quote]

with Umbrella it was not a surprise, and I think their position more understanding. With ODN I think it was different. I expected that they would have the honour to do what FOK and The International (now Internoptional) did in that war.

Edited July 19, 2012 by King Louis the II

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1342701750' post='3012051']
After the war is over, it is pretty obvious who DH/C&G will start to plot against it. And it is an ally of one of C&G members.. Thats is the difference.
[/quote]
Please tell us. I'm so excited to know!

[Alterego]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342407411' post='3010631']
I know you think MK and co. are pure evil, but they really do have to maintain a level of respect for their allies to be in this position.
[/quote]

You didnt refute his claim. Not that it matters MK and co have whitewashed their whole history. MK even claim every war they fought in was a victory and any thing that shines a negative light on them has been erased from their official history. All their lapdogs happily regurgitate the message their master wants.


[IMG]http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4854/54881533.png[/IMG]

Edited July 19, 2012 by Alterego

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1342723690' post='3012134']
You didnt refute his claim. Not that it matters MK and co have whitewashed their whole history. MK even claim every war they fought in was a victory and any thing that shines a negative light on them has been erased from their official history. All their lapdogs happily regurgitate the message their master wants.
[/quote]
That has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing and refutes absolutely nothing. Thanks for coming to the shooting range with a basketball, but we don't do that kind of shooting here.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Neo Uruk