Viva Cuervo!

[potato]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332842413' post='2943677']
Usually, if there is a consistent enemy, it'll be clear who it is. He was pissed off precisely for the reasons I've already mentioned and he didn't like MK because he didn't like MK's other allies. Eventually MK did take his advice and stopped having 14 treaties to all kinds of blocs, but that didn't end well for him lol.

I'm lambasting MK for being fickle and TOP for thinking MK is a stalwart ally to anyone who isn't new and shiny or in C&G or DH. Um, Sparta could have lived up to the reputation for real by leaving XX and treatying you, as requested by yourselves. lol

Anyway, like I said it's veering off course, so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.
[/quote]

If that's really what you believe (or pretend you believe), be my guest. I was LHE/LHC for most of that time. Or at least in gov't. It's safe to assume I have a good grip of what actually happened. As opposed to the filtered half truthes you're delivering here.

And I won't even touch your imaginery Sparta treaty.

But, you're right one thing at least: we've gone completely off topic. So good luck with whatever it is you're doing. I hope it goes well.

Edited March 27, 2012 by potato

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332468531' post='2941944']
As far as I know, we have no written or unwritten allegiance to Polar, of course we wouldn't want to get rolled for them. It's been noted many times on Sparta boards, idk how much on the OWF..Due to Sparta/Umb's actions in NPO-DH we told RIA we had their backs [b]no matter what [/b]in the next war.
[/quote]

I don't recall you defending RIA last war (not that you did much defending of anything).

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332471906' post='2942014']
MK began pushing the anti-SF movement.
[/quote]

Oh ho ho. The "anti-SF" movement began long before anything we started "pushing." We just tend to be more vocal than others, and as you are incorrectly pointing out here, more likely to pegged as the ring leader.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332478810' post='2942047']
I knew someone would point this out. Like I said in my last post, Sparta doesn't give a !@#$ about the majority of the issues that happen on this silly planet. We have 1 item, that we feel strongly about, and you're going to sit here and tell me that I'm not being fair? Even after we went out on a limb for Umb against aztec, and in wars previous to that? I don't recall the general populous of Sparta ever feeling so strongly about a single issue. Someone wasn't being fair, and I don't feel it was Sparta. I realize you have to toot the doomhouse horn, but come on, anyone outside our sphere can see the relationship was over a very long period of time becoming very one-sided. Umb's last moves really took the cake imo. You have to draw the line and say enough is enough at some point. So no, I don't think I'm being outrageous. If sparta made a habit making silly requests or jumping under a bus, then sure, I'd agree with you. [/quote]

Congrats on using a lot of words that in no way refute the claim Azaghul made.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332478810' post='2942047']Sparta had never been rolled before, so getting rolled was a pretty big event for us. [/quote]

The world is really mourning the terrible beating Sparta finally took after half a decade of success. Total devastation.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332828380' post='2943638']
There's that. Let's look at STA, Polar, GR, TORN, etc. Or why do you think this treaty is happening to begin with? Why am I constantly against MK?
[/quote]
[b]STA[/b] - Tyga was the first among us to suggest that we were growing apart and that the treaty wouldn't last. While we technically canceled in Gunnergate, I think the course of history has shown that he was right in the debate that erupted at the time (we were growing apart) and STA would have canceled the treaty eventually if we hadn't.

[b]Polaris[/b] - Guy in charge hates us and the last thing he said to us would be censored here. Can't really hold a treaty with that.

[b]GR[/b] - Merged into an alliance with whom we are now allied. Never found ourselves on opposite sides in a war.

[b]TORN[/b] - I still like TORN. I've never had an ill word for bigwoody or any of those gentlemen.

If you're going to attack MK, you're going to need to do better than call us disloyal. That dog don't hunt.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Ardus

[Monster]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332893760' post='2943883']
[b]STA[/b] - Tyga was the first among us to suggest that we were growing apart and that the treaty wouldn't last. While we technically canceled in Gunnergate, I think the course of history has shown that he was right in the debate that erupted at the time (we were growing apart) and STA would have canceled the treaty eventually if we hadn't.

[b]Polaris[/b] - Guy in charge hates us and the last thing he said to us would be censored here. Can't really hold a treaty with that.

[b]GR[/b] - Merged into an alliance with whom we are now allied. Never found ourselves on opposite sides in a war.

[b]TORN[/b] - I still like TORN. I've never had an ill word for bigwoody or any of those gentlemen.

If you're going to attack MK, you're going to need to do better than call us disloyal. That dog don't hunt.
[/quote]

Um, that was brief list to begin with. GR was disliked by MK for being inactive. GOD?

How about BAPS for instance? It will hunt, because you're not loyal to anything that doesn't follow you.

I can make this into a blog entry since it's still kind of off course.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Roquentin

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332895557' post='2943901']
Um, that was brief list to begin with. GR was disliked by MK for being inactive. GOD?

How about BAPS for instance? It will hunt, [b]because you're not loyal to anything that doesn't follow you[/b].

I can make this into a blog entry since it's still kind of off course.
[/quote]

I am going to play the devil's advocate here but last time I checked, loyalty is a gate that swings both ways.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332893760' post='2943883']
[b]GR[/b] - Merged into an alliance with whom we are now allied. Never found ourselves on opposite sides in a war.
[/quote]

Tbf to Roq, You almost did.

[Monster]

Oh right, I remember that. GR wanted to attack MK for the Mushqaeda thing.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332858671' post='2943730']
I don't recall you defending RIA last war (not that you did much defending of anything).[/quote]
We begged RIA to not hit valhalla, but they did it anyway. Once they hit valhalla, our hands were tied as it would have had some treaty conflicts. And not to mention once we were in, due to the odds, there was nothing we could do. We did pull NS off of them for attacking a different coalition, but that wasn't exactly what we were hoping for way back in the beginning.


[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332858671' post='2943730']
Oh ho ho. The "anti-SF" movement began long before anything we started "pushing." We just tend to be more vocal than others, and as you are incorrectly pointing out here, more likely to pegged as the ring leader.[/quote]
Don't like being called a ring leader, hmmm? I'm afraid that's not my my problem. Ardus is the one who said in [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109584&view=findpost&p=2936014]this post (last quote/response)[/url]a bit ago that he/MK planned the whole war, but nice try, ring leader.


[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332858671' post='2943730']
Congrats on using a lot of words that in no way refute the claim Azaghul made.[/quote]
No, I think I made it quite clear, we've never asked much of Umb, and we have 1 thing we feel strongly about, and Umb tells us to suck a d***? Relationships are always two way streets, and with Umb it was always one way. So no, I don't buy your argument, but feel free to keep tooting that DH horn!

I suppose you want me to say that it is awful relationship etiquette making that request, but to say that would imply that you believe Sparta should have let Umb continue to be the only one in our [i]mutual relationship[/i] to take benefit from our allegiance. So, If that's the argument you want to make, then go right ahead, but I'm telling you right now, saying that sole request is one sided is not going to help portray Umbrella or DH in a more positive manner, so it would probably be in your best interest to agree with me. Saying otherwise just adds insult to injury to your continuously growing persona as a user.


[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332858671' post='2943730']
The world is really mourning the terrible beating Sparta finally took after half a decade of success. Total devastation.
[/quote]Hey, You should be proud of yourself. I've never seen the people in Sparta so pissed off

EDIT: wtf no word filter?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Enamel32

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332896217' post='2943909']
Oh right, I remember that. GR wanted to attack MK for the Mushqaeda thing.
[/quote]

Yea in defense of CCC, iirc.

[potato]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332895557' post='2943901']
Um, that was brief list to begin with. GR was disliked by MK for being inactive.
[/quote]

That's your problem here: you take one comment in passing and assume it's a general policy. Did we get annoyed now and then when we couldn't reach GR? Sure. But to say we hated them or even disliked them is totally wrong.

[Phineas]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1332896077' post='2943907']
I am going to play the devil's advocate here but last time I checked, loyalty is a gate that swings both ways.
[/quote]

Ironically and completely side-stepping you , a one-side gated is all that needs to be said about MK's brand of loyalty. Their loyalty is defined by both you must fall in line with [b]what they think[/b] AND [b][i]how they think[/i][/b].

Anyhow, seeing the MK criticize Sparta here is rather humorous.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332895557' post='2943901']
Um, that was brief list to begin with. GR was disliked by MK for being inactive.[/quote]

And Londo was disliked for doing dumb things. We nonetheless zealously defended him and Athens.

[quote]How about BAPS for instance? It will hunt, because you're not loyal to anything that doesn't follow you.[/quote]

Anything I might say on BAPS would be total hearsay, but I believe the distance that grew between us was even more inevitable than that which grew between us and STA.

Your argument is no more than pointing out every alliance with whom MK once held a treaty. Is there an alliance of meaningful age on CN that has not canceled a treaty or seen a relationship fade with time? People change, and the formal instruments that bind us all must recognize that fact. Otherwise this world would grow even more stagnant than it already is while our treaties grew meaningless and counter-factual, defining friendships where no friendship exists.

[quote name='Omni']Tbf to Roq, You almost did.[/quote]

And for we so loved GR that we busted our ass to ensure that such did not come to pass. That event and subsequent work on our relationship is ultimately evidence contrary to Roq's assertion: we worked to patch up mistakes and remain loyal to them even in the absence of formal relations.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Ardus

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1332896614' post='2943915']
Ironically and completely side-stepping you , a one-side gated is all that needs to be said about MK's brand of loyalty. Their loyalty is defined by both you must fall in line with [b]what they think[/b] AND [b][i]how they think[/i][/b].

Anyhow, seeing the MK criticize Sparta here is rather humorous.
[/quote]

Heh, like I said, devils advocate.

[Phineas]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1332896685' post='2943917']
Heh, like I said, devils advocate.
[/quote]


You made an excellent point and it's one I also hope Roq and others like him remember and/or learn from.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332896278' post='2943910']
We begged RIA to not hit valhalla, but they did it anyway. Once they hit valhalla, our hands were tied as it would have had some treaty conflicts. And not to mention once we were in, due to the odds, there was nothing we could do. We did pull NS off of them for attacking a different coalition, but that wasn't exactly what we were hoping for way back in the beginning. [/quote]

You didn't defend them though!!!!! Isn't that how the rhetoric usually goes around here? lol

Anyways, I guess I can agree that with the given treaty conflicts it bound you away from them. I still feel like the larger point stands.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332896278' post='2943910']Don't like being called a ring leader, hmmm? I'm afraid that's not my my problem. Ardus is the one who said in [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109584&view=findpost&p=2936014]this post (last quote/response)[/url]a bit ago that he/MK planned the whole war, but nice try, ring leader. [/quote]

Now you're putting words in my mouth I never said I disliked the ringleader role, I'm just saying it's a tag that has been thrown on to us in situations where it doesn't always apply. I suppose you'll say something like "it goes with the territory," though. While MK certainly did play our part in planning the war, it was only in conjunction with a long list of other allies and friends, including but not limited to TOP, TLR, NG, IRON, and NPO. I don't know how Ardus would know of this - by November he had resigned his role as Prince to me and held no more power (or insight) than the next member within MK.


[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332896278' post='2943910']No, I think I made it quite clear, we've never asked much of Umb, and we have 1 thing we feel strongly about, and Umb tells us to suck a d***? Relationships are always two way streets, and with Umb it was always one way. So no, I don't buy your argument, but feel free to keep tooting that DH horn!

I suppose you want me to say that it is awful relationship etiquette making that request, but to say that would imply that you believe Sparta should have let Umb continue to be the only one in our [i]mutual relationship[/i] to take benefit from our allegiance. So, If that's the argument you want to make, then go right ahead, but I'm telling you right now, saying that sole request is one sided is not going to help portray Umbrella or DH in a more positive manner, so it would probably be in your best interest to agree with me. Saying otherwise just adds insult to injury to your continuously growing persona as a user.[/quote]

If you really think the way Umbrella treated you was a "one-way" street relationship, you clearly do not appreciate how much they went to bat for Sparta. The fact they couldn't at the end of the day side with you in that war was by nature of far, far more of their friends sitting on the other side of the battlefield. They did [b]everything[/b] else in their power to ensure Spartan interests were still accounted for. It is truly pathetic how you wasted all that goodwill.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332896278' post='2943910']Hey, You should be proud of yourself. I've never seen the people in Sparta so pissed off
[/quote]

Alright, I'll bite. Why am [i]I[/i] (or, I suppose, MK) the one Spartans are mad at? Because I assume it's due to the MHA attack, which was a CnG attack initiated by the coaltion's approval (a [i]group[/i] which I highlighted earlier). I too will join you in laughing at that Spartan rage, though.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332896640' post='2943916']
Anything I might say on BAPS would be total hearsay, but I believe the distance that grew between us was even more inevitable than that which grew between us and STA.
[/quote]

Not at all. Unless MK publicly insulting us at every opportunity just before, during and going into overdrive after the WOtC was inevitable.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332943673' post='2944321']
Now you're putting words in my mouth I never said I disliked the ringleader role, I'm just saying it's a tag that has been thrown on to us in situations where it doesn't always apply. I suppose you'll say something like "it goes with the territory," though. While MK certainly did play our part in planning the war, it was only in conjunction with a long list of other allies and friends, including but not limited to TOP, TLR, NG, IRON, and NPO.[/quote]
Not to worry, they haven't been forgotten about.



[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332943673' post='2944321']
If you really think the way Umbrella treated you was a "one-way" street relationship, you clearly do not appreciate how much they went to bat for Sparta. The fact they couldn't at the end of the day side with you in that war was by nature of far, far more of their friends sitting on the other side of the battlefield. They did [b]everything[/b] else in their power to ensure Spartan interests were still accounted for. It is truly pathetic how you wasted all that goodwill.[/quote]
You are clearly not taking into account our vast history with Umbrella.



[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1332943673' post='2944321']
Alright, I'll bite. Why am [i]I[/i] (or, I suppose, MK) the one Spartans are mad at? Because I assume it's due to the MHA attack, which was a CnG attack initiated by the coaltion's approval (a [i]group[/i] which I highlighted earlier). I too will join you in laughing at that Spartan rage, though.
[/quote]
The general population within sparta seems to be mad at a lot of people right now. Go ahead and read through my posts, I don't spare GATO when the time arises. I expect to start digging deeper into TLR at some point as well. At the end of the day, TOP didn't have the balls to DoW Polar on their CB alone. If they did, it would have been done two years ago. It wasn't until MK decided they didn't like GOD that finally enabled TOP to declare, because they were able to gain the support of Umbrella, and other swing alliances that allowed the war to finally attain enough support to win. TLR/IRON/TOP aren't primarily responsible for that. MK is. I guess you could argue NG could be. Regardless, all the possible alliances that I would say are responsible are tightly clustered together, so on the grand scheme of things, I see determining who is ultimately responsible as a moot endeavor at this time.

And, on top of that. I think DH's presence in the war was much less then they anticipated it to be due to the FARK hit on NPO, so lets not try and play innocent.

I don't know if I would laugh if I were you. I've never seen the alliance so collectively mad. Sparta has what I would characterize as a don't bother me, and I won't bother you, unwritten policy. You/your coalition certainly poked the bees nest.

[Ogaden]

MK were just followers of those devious masterminds in NG and TLR, is that it?

Edited March 28, 2012 by James Dahl

[Enamel32]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1332961889' post='2944424']
MK were just followers of those devious masterminds in NG and TLR, is that it?
[/quote]
I believe this would sum it up fairly well:

[img]http://www.mallenbaker.net/csr/images/blame.jpg[/img]

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Oh well, in any case MK, thanks for taking the blame for us. It's appreciated.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1332965058' post='2944455']
Oh well, in any case MK, thanks for taking the blame for us. It's appreciated.
[/quote]
They do us too nicely.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332960176' post='2944413']
The general population within sparta seems to be mad at a lot of people right now. Go ahead and read through my posts, I don't spare GATO when the time arises. I expect to start digging deeper into TLR at some point as well. At the end of the day, TOP didn't have the balls to DoW Polar on their CB alone. If they did, it would have been done two years ago. It wasn't until MK decided they didn't like GOD that finally enabled TOP to declare, because they were able to gain the support of Umbrella, and other swing alliances that allowed the war to finally attain enough support to win. TLR/IRON/TOP aren't primarily responsible for that. MK is. I guess you could argue NG could be. Regardless, all the possible alliances that I would say are responsible are tightly clustered together, so on the grand scheme of things, I see determining who is ultimately responsible as a moot endeavor at this time.

And, on top of that. I think DH's presence in the war was much less then they anticipated it to be due to the FARK hit on NPO, so lets not try and play innocent.

I don't know if I would laugh if I were you. I've never seen the alliance so collectively mad. Sparta has what I would characterize as a don't bother me, and I won't bother you, unwritten policy. You/your coalition certainly poked the bees nest.
[/quote]
The whole world knew TOP was going to come for NpO one day and I made it plenty clear to Sparta on many occasions that their chosen FA course put them in a bad position in regards to both Polaris and GOD. Your government was given ample opportunity and encouragement to do what it claimed to want to do: not support either of those alliances in a war. Instead, Tulak, with some justification, desired to prove Sparta's honor in combat. Your government chose a path of war and death over peace and a further opportunity to be let alone. 1337 and I pressed you to do otherwise, much to the chagrin of many in our membership and the countless others throughout CN who disdain Sparta.

The war came as was warned and the hammer fell on Sparta as it had to. Instead of accepting these events as your choice, instead of striding forth into glorious battle with self-respect, instead of regaining your honor... you threw a tantrum and pointed fingers at all those sympathetic to you. Instantly whatever consideration Sparta had once possessed in the victorious camp evaporated, save the eternally patient Umbrella. And even them you drove away through your own childish bitterness.

I will claim the heads of many alliances among my accomplishments. Long is my history and vast is my capability to remake the world and punish those who seek to harm me and mine. I worked hard to make that war happen, the war that ultimately came to you, but the global opprobrium and utter lack of respect Sparta faces is your true destruction. And that, my friend, was not my doing. It was your own. And you will never undo it; you are too consumed by bitterness. This treaty is evidence of such.

I've nothing more to say.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Ardus

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332971789' post='2944498']
.
[/quote]
Here yee! Here yee! Today's proclamation is do what ardus says, or be rolled! I hope that keeps working out for you.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332960176' post='2944413']
I don't know if I would laugh if I were you. I've never seen the alliance so collectively mad. Sparta has what I would characterize as a don't bother me, and I won't bother you, unwritten policy. You/your coalition certainly poked the bees nest.
[/quote]

Bees are going extinct.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332971789' post='2944498']
The whole world knew TOP was going to come for NpO one day and I made it plenty clear to Sparta on many occasions that their chosen FA course put them in a bad position in regards to both Polaris and GOD. Your government was given ample opportunity and encouragement to do what it claimed to want to do: not support either of those alliances in a war. Instead, Tulak, with some justification, desired to prove Sparta's honor in combat. Your government chose a path of war and death over peace and a further opportunity to be let alone. 1337 and I pressed you to do otherwise, much to the chagrin of many in our membership and the countless others throughout CN who disdain Sparta.

The war came as was warned and the hammer fell on Sparta as it had to. Instead of accepting these events as your choice, instead of striding forth into glorious battle with self-respect, instead of regaining your honor... you threw a tantrum and pointed fingers at all those sympathetic to you. Instantly whatever consideration Sparta had once possessed in the victorious camp evaporated, save the eternally patient Umbrella. And even them you drove away through your own childish bitterness.
[/quote]

You weren't allied to Sparta, but I'm sure your concern for their well-being (and as soon as it became clear they would not defect to suit your and yours' purposes,) was well received. Especially when as soon as it became clear Sparta wasn't going to pull a double break-off flank maneuver you and your kind turned to publicly and privately berating them as much as possible. The revisionism and attempts to say any of your actions were in anyone's best interests but your own is really drab. It's a nice story that you're trying to tell but to say that your intimations towards Sparta were borne out of anything other than self-interest is just a bad joke.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1332971789' post='2944498']
I will claim the heads of many alliances among my accomplishments. Long is my history and vast is my capability to remake the world and punish those who seek to harm me and mine. I worked hard to make that war happen, the war that ultimately came to you, but the global opprobrium and utter lack of respect Sparta faces is your true destruction.

I've nothing more to say.
[/quote]

If anything, your gaffes made the inevitable much harder to realize. You might or might not realize it, but your desire for recognition from these inevitable events have inadvertantly lessened and diminished the contribution you actually made and what you could have done with the results now.

Edited March 28, 2012 by IYIyTh