Viva Cuervo!

[JoshuaR]

If that's the case, then I don't get why Sparta wouldn't just have canceled the treaty themselves and kept you in government. If those were the prevailing viewpoints, then yes the treaty was doomed regardless. Odd decisions even with what you said. Hmm.

[Monster]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332475069' post='2942037']
If that's the case, then I don't get why Sparta wouldn't just have canceled the treaty themselves and kept you in government. If those were the prevailing viewpoints, then yes the treaty was doomed regardless. Odd decisions even with what you said. Hmm.
[/quote]
Because they had some moral issues with what I did and Tulak wasn't around, basically. I didn't say my morality was the same as theirs', though.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332470558' post='2941982']
Exactly rush, we did know our path months ago, which is why it was so outraging when umb chose a path that didn't include us whatsoever.
[/quote]
And it's not outrageous that [i]you[/i] made a path that didn't include [i]them[/i] whatsoever? That critique can go both ways.

Outside of fighting on your side, what would have satisfied you? They severely limited their commitment to our side out of respect for you (they refused to hit anyone in XX, the meat of your coalition). To say that they completely ignored you is blatantly false.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1332475526' post='2942043']
And it's not outrageous that [i]you[/i] made a path that didn't include [i]them[/i] whatsoever? That critique can go both ways.[/quote]
I knew someone would point this out. Like I said in my last post, Sparta doesn't give a !@#$ about the majority of the issues that happen on this silly planet. We have 1 item, that we feel strongly about, and you're going to sit here and tell me that I'm not being fair? Even after we went out on a limb for Umb against aztec, and in wars previous to that? I don't recall the general populous of Sparta ever feeling so strongly about a single issue. Someone wasn't being fair, and I don't feel it was Sparta. I realize you have to toot the doomhouse horn, but come on, anyone outside our sphere can see the relationship was over a very long period of time becoming very one-sided. Umb's last moves really took the cake imo. You have to draw the line and say enough is enough at some point. So no, I don't think I'm being outrageous. If sparta made a habit making silly requests or jumping under a bus, then sure, I'd agree with you.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1332475526' post='2942043']
Outside of fighting on your side, what would have satisfied you? They severely limited their commitment to our side out of respect for you (they refused to hit anyone in XX, the meat of your coalition). To say that they completely ignored you is blatantly false.
[/quote]
Wow, fantastic question! Um, In my most humble opinion, I'm not sure, actually. Maybe nothing? They offered aid, but really that's practically useless from my perspective. [ooc]let's face it money has lost it's value in this game[/ooc] In fact, I'd say it hurts Umb more then it helps Sparta, and that's just....not even logical for allies to do to each other. Yes, they did help Sparta by not hitting our allies, and I am very thankful for that. It set a standard for us that I presently lambast GATO and CnG for. But, I digress, the umb treaty had been under the microscope for quite some time (we have a very long history with umb even longer then MK and Umb do, remember). Sparta had never been rolled before, so getting rolled was a pretty big event for us. If we can't count on an ally when we are most in need, and consider when we have really gone out on a limb for said ally in the past, and all the ally can promise is not to hit a couple people that are already getting gangbanged and send us some money that basically has no value? At some point, you ask yourself, why are they even our ally? We had alliances pile onto us like we couldn't hardly believe, and umb says, we'll send you some money. You are perfectly entitled to have your own opinion on the matter, but my opinion is that they could have done considerably more.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Enamel32

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332478810' post='2942047']
In fact, I'd say it hurts Umb more then it helps Sparta, and that's just....not even logical for allies to do to each other.
[/quote]

What I fail to see is how it is considered totally logical for Sparta to take on an adamant FA stance aligning itself essentially with a coalition opposed to a majority of Umbrella's allies, and Umbrella itself, without first consulting Umbrella to get their opinion and work it out so it could have possibly been mutually beneficent. Then, instead of trying to work it out with them in the preliminaries of the planning, try to coerce Umb into joining your side by citing our treaty without Umb being included in the thought-process. And then you are upset that Umb doesn't bend over backwards while spinning ceramic plates while at the same time isolating the rest of its allies, all just for you guys, who had already chosen your path, and at the same time should have acknowledged where Umb itself was FA-wise.

If you could explain, that would be most delightful.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1332482858' post='2942067']
If you could explain, that would be most delightful.
[/quote]
Read all my posts above. I'm not going to type it all out again so you can come back and say "I disagree". Clearly your alliance disagrees, lol.


EDIT: and the part you quoted has nothing to do with what you are actually responding about, just FYI. The part you quoted is with respect to sending monetary aid to sparta, in case you missed that. That post was getting wall of texty, I apologize for that.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Enamel32

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1332482858' post='2942067']
What I fail to see is how it is considered totally logical for Sparta to take on an adamant FA stance aligning itself essentially with a coalition opposed to a majority of Umbrella's allies, and Umbrella itself, without first consulting Umbrella to get their opinion and work it out so it could have possibly been mutually beneficent. Then, instead of trying to work it out with them in the preliminaries of the planning, try to coerce Umb into joining your side by citing our treaty without Umb being included in the thought-process. And then you are upset that Umb doesn't bend over backwards while spinning ceramic plates while at the same time isolating the rest of its allies, all just for you guys, who had already chosen your path, and at the same time should have acknowledged where Umb itself was FA-wise.

If you could explain, that would be most delightful.
[/quote]


Things like this I find pretty funny. You make it sound as if Sparta and it's allies were plotting to roll UMB's allies, which given their nature I find highly unlikely. It was UMB's allies doing the planning to take down Sparta's allies. In the end Sparta became another in the line of people that were once allied to, then were screwed over by DH/PB/allies.

Now with this treaty most of UMB/allies have taken the hostility up a notch.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1332484416' post='2942075']
Things like this I find pretty funny. You make it sound as if Sparta and it's allies were plotting to roll UMB's allies, which given their nature I find highly unlikely. It was UMB's allies doing the planning to take down Sparta's allies. In the end Sparta became another in the line of people that were once allied to, then were screwed over by DH/PB/allies.
[/quote]
Exactly. Umb's current "disagreement" with Sparta's ability to internally make a decision that turned out (see: weaboo war and aftermath) being against their FA plans, just goes to show how one-sided the relationship was, and still would be. Any relationship is a two way street.

Edit: good post +1

Edited March 23, 2012 by Enamel32

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1332470206' post='2941977']
You do not accrue debts from war to war. Any notion that you do, is silly at best.
[/quote]
Why would you say that? Everything someone does in a war is remembered and can be later used as consideration on how to deal with that alliance in the future. NpO was hit twice after BiPolar and got heavy reps the second time, that was because TOP felt they were responsible for most of the money they were forced to agree to pay MK and those assisting MK at the time. An alliance can easily accumulate debt for actions they took leading to somebody getting screwed in a previous war, just as easily as someone can accumulate debt for more recent actions. All it takes is an alliance who thinks someone does owe them something.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Methrage

[kriekfreak]

[quote]
Sparta had never been rolled before, so getting rolled was a pretty big event for us.[/quote]
You haven't been rolled. The latest war hardly gave you a beating, you dug in and never came out.

Also it's funny, most of our side of the web didn't had a problem with your alliance. We kinda saw you favorably due to the war before the last one. It was very hard for you to piss of that many alliances in this war but for some reason you pulled it off and that is what astounds me. You just had to sit there and endure some damage. Instead you !@#$%*ed and moaned like no other and dug yourself in to prevent any damage. Even if that meant that the rest of your allies were grinded into !@#$.

Edited March 23, 2012 by kriekfreak

[potato]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332467233' post='2941917']
Caught red-handed? I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal since I still had access
[/quote]

I love the irony here.

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332471195' post='2941999']
Idk.
[/quote]

This seems to be a regular occurrence with you.

Edited March 23, 2012 by potato

[Jgoods45]

Haha, this is a fabulous grouping.

[Monster]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1332501795' post='2942103']
I love the irony here.
[/quote]

How exactly? I had sent out most of the messages on the twitter to begin with. They knew I still had access to it and it was never going to be some super spy op or anything. Not like they didn't deserve it, either. If they had been not as !@#$%*, maybe the point would resonate more, but even then in the grand scheme of things, it can't really be said to have been a big deal compared to what you're referring to, which involved a far longer string of breaches of trust.

[IYIyTh]

I find some of the explanations for Umbrella's foreign policy actions [i]hilarious.

[/i]It's like attempting to rewrite a book that's already a best-seller and selling it again.

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332473416' post='2942026']
but Umbrella was NOT going to attack allies of MHA or Sparta.
[/quote]

Love it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Alterego]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1332427032' post='2941592']
Umbrella will remain strong because Roquentin is not what kept them unified. He just gave their nations steroids.

Also, if you think Umbrella handed their sovereignty over to MK...what did BAPS do when it reformed and signed with the alliances that originally killed it? lol
[/quote]

I stand corrected you have shown me Umbrella...wait you just changed the subject and didnt put me straight at all. I guess Umbrella really are just GGA with a bit of NS

[Monster]

Agreed entirely.

[Leerjet]

I'm not going to waste my time reading this so I'll cut to the chase. Glad to see this treaty happen, look forward to getting to know you guys better and to communicate quite often!

o/ Paraguas
o/ Sparta

[mrcalkin]

The richest part to all this is that I was really the only vocal one who wanted the Sparta treaty canceled before Roqgate (I got laughed out of one of our threads for even putting forth the idea and that was even AFTER you had already tried to blackmail us, lol. Glad you kept up the charades after that though, made things a lot easier).

I mean hell, Domisi was still completely gung-ho about aiding the !@#$ out of Sparta for weeks after your initial threats until the twitter thing became the straw that broke the camel's back. They should be really glad someone with your levelheadedness and self-control is looking out for their interests Roquentin.

Edited March 23, 2012 by mrcalkin

[Monster]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1332529116' post='2942246']
The richest part to all this is that I was really the only vocal one who wanted the Sparta treaty canceled before Roqgate (I got laughed out of one of our threads for even putting forth the idea and that was even AFTER you had already tried to blackmail us, lol. Glad you kept up the charades after that though, made things a lot easier).

I mean hell, Domisi was completely gung-ho about aiding the !@#$ out of Sparta for weeks after your initial threats. They should be really glad someone with your level of self-control is looking out for their interests Roquentin.
[/quote]

Nope. Not what Natan said and Raken had been planning to put it forth before that. I'm glad I kept up the charades, as well. The fact that an inconsequential twitter message was what pushed Umbrella to cancel a treaty is hilarious and just makes you look dumb if you're putting it forth as the true story. It also shows Natan was really responsible unlike what the logs depict. So either he was lying, or you are. Which is it?

Yet, nothing happened, which triggered the twitter thing to begin with just goes to show he has no control over the alliance he supposedly leads.

I'm glad I kept it up as well, because you were never going to ditch DH anyway, so it was inevitable and I should have just assented to the downgrade plan when everyone was else was calling for it.

The idea you have in your head that Umbrella can get away with everything consequence free, but take every thing done against them as some sort of crime against humanity is ultimately what shows Umbrella is dumb.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332529362' post='2942248']
Nope. Not what Natan said and Raken had been planning to put it forth before that. I'm glad I kept up the charades, as well. The fact that an inconsequential twitter message was what pushed Umbrella to cancel a treaty is hilarious and just makes you look dumb if you're putting it forth as the true story. It also shows Natan was really responsible unlike what the logs depict. So either he was lying, or you are. Which is it?

Yet, nothing happened, which triggered the twitter thing to begin with just goes to show he has no control over the alliance he supposedly leads.

I'm glad I kept it up as well, because you were never going to ditch DH anyway, so it was inevitable and I should have just assented to the downgrade plan when everyone was else was calling for it.

The idea you have in your head that Umbrella can get away with everything consequence free, but take every thing done against them as some sort of crime against humanity is ultimately what shows Umbrella is dumb.
[/quote]

I was the only one who called for the cancelation and got no seconds. That is a fact. No Raken, no anybody. Natan himself ripped me to shreds for bringing it up. But thats a little easier for me to figure out [i]since I'm in the damn alliance after all[/i]. While Raken might have supported the idea given your antics, he wasn't willing to push it forward til after your repeated threats and abuse of privileges finally pushed the alliance opinion over the top. I find it hilarious that you think this somehow makes domisi a weak leader, considering how petrified you were of the membership going against your own wishes in your lengthy span as leader.

Get away with consequence-free? What am I trying to get away with? You're the one who was begging us to ignore what you did with the twitter. Once you get upset, you can't control yourself. It's why you blackmailed us in the first place, its why you took advantage of the fact that you could still post on our twitter, its why you've tried to poach our members off facebook and our app aa, its why you can't help but respond to every criticism of your behavior, real or imagined. You have been this way forever, and I should know, we only talked daily for years. If you would just pull your head out of your ass and stop being such a dick and recognize that we're really not trying to get away with anything, you might lower your blood pressure a bit, but that's probably a bit too much to ask from someone like yourself.

Edited March 23, 2012 by mrcalkin

[Monster]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1332530052' post='2942255']
I was the only one who called for the cancelation and got no seconds. That is a fact. No Raken, no anybody. Natan himself ripped me to shreds for bringing it up. But thats a little easier for me to figure out [i]since I'm in the damn alliance after all[/i]. While Raken might have supported the idea given your antics, he wasn't willing to push it forward til after your repeated threats and abuse of privileges finally pushed the alliance opinion over the top. I find it hilarious that you think this somehow makes domisi a weak leader, considering how petrified you were of the memberships going against your own wishes in your long span as leader.

Get away with consequence-free? What am I trying to get away with? You're the one who was begging us to ignore what you did with the twitter. Once you get upset, you can't control yourself. It's why you blackmailed us in the first place, its why you took advantage of the fact that you could still post on our twitter, its why you've tried to poach our members off facebook and our app aa, its why you can't help but respond to every criticism of your behavior, real or imagined. You have been this way forever, and I should know, we only talked daily for years. If you would just pull your head out of your ass and stop being such a dick and recognize that we're really not trying to get away with anything, you might lower your blood pressure a bit, but that's probably a bit too much to ask from someone like yourself.
[/quote]

No, he's government and he said that it was being pushed by other people. I recommend you read the logs that were posted. Don't just ignore contradictory evidence and pretend it's not there. I usually got what wanted. If a simple twitter message was what it got from being ripped to shreds to having veto override support, then the treaty wasn't worth keeping to begin with. It does make him a weak leader if the alliance goes against his wishes and I've posted instances of him having views that contradict with what mrcalkin thinks.

You're the ones who tried to get away with empty promises of aid, ballcupping a despicable alliance, and not to mention all the crap Umbrella members were saying about me.

I didn't try to "poach" anyone who hadn't expressed interest prior and the applicant AA thing was made clear. How about you take your own advice, mrcalkin?

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332530303' post='2942257']
How about you take your own advice, mrcalkin?
[/quote]

Can do, later my old friend <3

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332472996' post='2942024']
I thought you were a nice guy Chalaskan. I'm reminded of the fact that all of TOP has sipped the MKool-Aid, myself. Luckily, most of your allies don't like them much.
[/quote]

Honestly, I've always liked you, but recently you have really sounded like a car salesman. I have seen multiple people warn you of your behavior coming across as erratic, but you are obviously very emotional about this. Sometimes, it is best to tamper your emotions a bit, because it has taken away a considerable amount of credibility.

As to the TOP/MK relations, I don't think anyone has done anything other than shown respect and backing when needed. It is natural to appreciate those qualities.

I don't agree with all they have done, but then I can't think of an alliance that I do agree with in that manner that is politically active, especially on the level they have been. Hell I don't even agree with all TOP has done WHILE I've been a member alone!

[JoshuaR]

I'll admit that for ME the Twitter thing was NOT the straw that broke the camel's back. It was the days of Sparta implicitly supporting your actions without one word to the contrary. Twitter was just one additional means of showing that you were out of control.

As for Raken planning to bring up a Sparta cancellation? mrcalkin is stating facts. There was no support for any such thing. Umbrella wanted to keep that treaty until we realized Sparta supported your actions, thus clearly showing that our two alliances had vastly differing world views and could not continue together.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1332550156' post='2942415']
Honestly, I've always liked you, but recently you have really sounded like a car salesman. I have seen multiple people warn you of your behavior coming across as erratic, but you are obviously very emotional about this. Sometimes, it is best to tamper your emotions a bit, because it has taken away a considerable amount of credibility.

As to the TOP/MK relations, I don't think anyone has done anything other than shown respect and backing when needed. It is natural to appreciate those qualities.

I don't agree with all they have done, but then I can't think of an alliance that I do agree with in that manner that is politically active, especially on the level they have been. Hell I don't even agree with all TOP has done WHILE I've been a member alone!
[/quote]
By supporting MK, you're also supporting everything GOONS does. As MK supports whatever GOONS does and are empowered to do so thanks to alliances like TOP. That's what I dislike about the MK/TOP relationship and the direction of your alliance in general lately.