Viva Cuervo!

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1332460698' post='2941842']
I'm surprised you don't get thank you letters from Electron Sponge on the anniversary of the signing. You succeeded in making GOONS an eternal tech farm and fulfilled his dream, albeit in a slightly different manner than he had planned.
[/quote]
That was \m/ and not GOONS. They just basically wiped out the original GOONS, who weren't the same people in this one. There's a reason I mentioned outer space. That's also why they were close to NpO initially.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[JoshuaR]

Yeah, Methrage, you're bemoaning Umbrella for Roq's moves, and then praising him and his new group of nations for it. Most of what he's saying in this thread is true. Sparta was cancelled over him, not because MK has any desire to roll them. Roq signing GOONS was a Good move, and they are still great allies. The reason Umbrella and Roq don't get along is because he Did want to cut ties with MK (and destroy them), and we didn't.

That's the script. Going beyond that, you start to create your own fiction. Going just up to that, and then it's just a matter of opinion. Do you agree with Roq that MK is evil and needs to be destroyed or do you agree with Umbrella? (I know the answer for you, but that question is aimed at the general audience.)

Umbrella's opinion is incompatible with Roquentin's desires, so rather than change opinion from within, he is taking the tactic of loudly trying to convince the entire world that he is right by bringing the issue to many threads on the OWF, and sharing this opinion in embassies. Even beyond, he has decided that He is the God-King-Eternal of Umbrella, and thus he has decided that my alliance is therefore not the true Umbrella.

Because that's the height of narcissism and displays a slightly over-warranted ego (yes he did great things in Umbrella, but he's also slamming the great efforts of many others, including our current president, domisi), he is trying to create a new alliance for true Paraguans, with him at its head, and with no voting check on his power lest the overwhelming rationality of the majority overrule his decisions based on an extremely narrow world view bent on MK's (and by extension DH and allies') destruction.

[Monster]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332460939' post='2941847']
Yeah, Methrage, you're bemoaning Umbrella for Roq's moves, and then praising him and his new group of nations for it. Most of what he's saying in this thread is true. Sparta was cancelled over him, not because MK has any desire to roll them. Roq signing GOONS was a Good move, and they are still great allies. The reason Umbrella and Roq don't get along is because he Did want to cut ties with MK (and destroy them), and we didn't.

That's the script. Going beyond that, you start to create your own fiction. Going just up to that, and then it's just a matter of opinion. Do you agree with Roq that MK is evil and needs to be destroyed or do you agree with Umbrella? (I know the answer for you, but that question is aimed at the general audience.)

Umbrella's opinion is incompatible with Roquentin's desires, so rather than change opinion from within, he is taking the tactic of loudly trying to convince the entire world that he is right by bringing the issue to many threads on the OWF, and sharing this opinion in embassies. Even beyond, he has decided that He is the God-King-Eternal of Umbrella, and thus he has decided that my alliance is therefore not the true Umbrella.

Because that's the height of narcissism and displays a slightly over-warranted ego (yes he did great things in Umbrella, but he's also slamming the great efforts of many others, including our current president, domisi), he is trying to create a new alliance for true Paraguans, with him at its head, and with no voting check on his power lest the overwhelming rationality of the majority overrule his decisions based on an extremely narrow world view bent on MK's (and by extension DH and allies') destruction.
[/quote]


He's not bemoaning Umbrella for my moves, he criticized me as an individual for the one's I made. I have said I regret signing DH, but not GOONS individually.

I am right, and most people who aren't treatied to you can see that, the three day old flea analogy is correct.

It is not the true Umbrella because it has changed into something else over the past 8 months. It's transparent to anyone the degradation from an alliance with ambition to one with no real desire other than to follow the cool kids.

Given the alliances you are tied to are for the most part autocratic, you can bemoan my criticisms of the voting all you want, but it looks rather funny.

I didn't even give myself the God-King Eternal thing.

Paraguas is autocratic simply because it is a more effective mode of government in this medium.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332460794' post='2941846']
That was \m/ and not GOONS. They just basically wiped out the original GOONS, who weren't the same people in this one. There's a reason I mentioned outer space. That's also why they were close to NpO initially.
[/quote]


I was thinking it was GOONS and \m/ that was told that by ES.

But it was a very smart move signing GOONS. GOONS seem to consist mostly of players who don't care about actually building an effective nation. That leaves them free to sell tech for years on end. It slows down a bit in the extended wars when Umbrella has to feed them massive amounts of aid to keep them from going completely under. But most of the time it's very effective. Umbrella wouldn't likely be the tech powerhouse they are today without GOONS willingness to forego building their own nations in exchange for building Umbrella's and to an extent MK's.

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1332461466' post='2941852']
I was thinking it was GOONS and \m/ that was told that by ES.

But it was a very smart move signing GOONS. GOONS seem to consist mostly of players who don't care about actually building an effective nation. That leaves them free to sell tech for years on end. It slows down a bit in the extended wars when Umbrella has to feed them massive amounts of aid to keep them from going completely under. But most of the time it's very effective. Umbrella wouldn't likely be the tech powerhouse they are today without GOONS willingness to forego building their own nations in exchange for building Umbrella's and to an extent MK's.
[/quote]

Honestly, we lost a lot of money initially with GOONS, so it took a while for that investment to pay off. I usually tried to avoid too much reliance on one source to avoid an oilesque situation and it wasn't them forgoing their own building. We did deals specifically designed to make their nations bigger and provide an economic backbone internally.


To defend ES a bit: He has told Jason8 that it was a joke and he just wanted \m/ to get beaten down some more and Jason8 seems to believe him.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[kevin32891]

Good luck with this.

lol Sparta.

[Monster]

You're literally treatied to an alliance that fits the label people have given Sparta over the years, so lol.

But with GOONS, the reliance was more that they'd bring more people in rather than stay small.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Amossio' timestamp='1332424974' post='2941575']
Now I see what you're saying, we should drop our allies because you'd like to see it that way, like I said before, cry for help, your self importance is delusional.
[/quote]
Hmm. The last time someone told Sparta they should drop a treaty or two, Umbrella said they wouldn't defend in event of crisis, and Sparta got rolled. I hope you don't find yourself anywhere near Sparta's former situation, because that would truly be [i]aweful[/i].

But your situation is different, because GOD and co DESERVED it! So you shouldn't have anything to worry about..

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332461172' post='2941849']
It is not the true Umbrella because it has changed into something else over the past 8 months. It's transparent to anyone the degradation from an alliance with ambition to one with no real desire other than to follow the cool kids.
[/quote]

Of course, because everything you are saying is true. And in regards to alliance changes, alliances will [i]never[/i] change in terms of culture, politics, or direction, ever. Because if they do, they obviously aren't the same alliance any more?

No, that doesn't really add up to it not still being the one and only Umbrella.

[Monster]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1332464206' post='2941872']
Of course, because everything you are saying is true. And in regards to alliance changes, alliances will [i]never[/i] change in terms of culture, politics, or direction, ever. Because if they do, they obviously aren't the same alliance any more?

No, that doesn't really add up to it not still being the one and only Umbrella.
[/quote]

It does. Everything I am saying is true. When the culture changes into a subservient one where the will of the leadership doesn't even matter, it's a marked change.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332460939' post='2941847']
Because that's the height of narcissism and displays a slightly over-warranted ego (yes he did great things in Umbrella, but he's also slamming the great efforts of many others, including our current president, domisi), he is trying to create a new alliance for true Paraguans, with him at its head, and with no voting check on his power lest the overwhelming rationality of the majority overrule his decisions based on an extremely narrow world view bent on MK's (and by extension DH and allies') destruction.
[/quote]
With Umbrella, those who acted surprised when you guys dropped Sparta and MHA were foolish, as it should of been obvious to anyone that you'll drop any other ally for Doom House. By now it is obvious to pretty much everyone, all your other allies can't rely on you guys and if they're smart they know it. Doom House is all Umbrella is these days or the upper tier of Doom House, I no longer see Umbrella as a sovereign alliance as you guys gave that up and seem to be happy in doing so.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332464192' post='2941871']
Hmm. The last time someone told Sparta they should drop a treaty or two, Umbrella said they wouldn't defend in event of crisis, and Sparta got rolled. I hope you don't find yourself anywhere near Sparta's former situation, because that would truly be [i]aweful[/i].

But your situation is different, because GOD and co DESERVED it! So you shouldn't have anything to worry about..
[/quote]

Huh? Are you insinuating that we told you to drop allies for us?

[Monster]

I think he means the whole "Leave XX" thing.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332465550' post='2941886']
With Umbrella, those who acted surprised when you guys dropped Sparta and MHA were foolish, as it should of been obvious to anyone that you'll drop any other ally for Doom House. By now it is obvious to pretty much everyone, all your other allies can't rely on you guys and if they're smart they know it. Doom House is all Umbrella is these days or the upper tier of Doom House, I no longer see Umbrella as a sovereign alliance as you guys gave that up and seem to be happy in doing so.
[/quote]

We cancelled with Sparta after they got rolled because of their inability/refusal to deal with a rogue government member threatening us and interfering with our private alliance infrastructure until it was too late. They literally only kicked Roquentin out of gov once they got word that the parasols had requested a vote to cancel and that it was probably going to pass.

Also we're still treatied to MHA btw.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332465677' post='2941890']
I think he means the whole "Leave XX" thing.
[/quote]

Oh you mean the thing that I never actually said or asked of them? In fact what I said when notifying Sparta of our position was that if they were going to roll with XX then we were going to roll with PB. I completely understood that they wanted to put their bloc as their top priority but apparently it wasn't okay for us to do the same, as was evident by the ridiculous amount of temper tantrums I had to endure.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Johnny Apocalypse

[JoshuaR]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332465550' post='2941886']
With Umbrella, those who acted surprised when you guys dropped Sparta and MHA were foolish, as it should of been obvious to anyone that you'll drop any other ally for Doom House. By now it is obvious to pretty much everyone, all your other allies can't rely on you guys and if they're smart they know it. Doom House is all Umbrella is these days or the upper tier of Doom House, I no longer see Umbrella as a sovereign alliance as you guys gave that up and seem to be happy in doing so.
[/quote]
Roq just said that we dropped Sparta because of him. Again, you are creating your own fiction. But what should I expect from someone who lists Umbrella's current government lineup with Roquentin as president? You also seem to live in a world of Bizarro-Umbrella.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332465653' post='2941889']
Huh? Are you insinuating that we told you to drop allies for us?
[/quote]
Umbrella? Not that I am aware.

[Monster]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1332466018' post='2941896']
Roq just said that we dropped Sparta because of him. Again, you are creating your own fiction. But what should I expect from someone who lists Umbrella's current government lineup with Roquentin as president? You also seem to live in a world of Bizarro-Umbrella.
[/quote]

I didn't exactly say that. I said that it was an excuse. Simply put, all that happened was that feelings about MK and the rest of your allies were broadcasted by someone who had the ammo. There was other stuff, too, which was considered resolved by the President. However, people wanted to cancel anyway and they didn't hesitate when they had an excuse for something they were planning to do anyway with regards to a treaty that only existed in an MDoAP form because I argued for it internally within Sparta's government.

The idea that somehow I manufactured intense of dislike of MK within Sparta's halls is the funny part.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332465972' post='2941895']
We cancelled with Sparta after they got rolled because of their inability/refusal to deal with a rogue government member threatening us and interfering with our private alliance infrastructure until it was too late. They literally only kicked Roquentin out of gov once they got word that the parasols had requested a vote to cancel and that it was probably going to pass.

Also we're still treatied to MHA btw.
[/quote]
I was referring to how your treaty with them didn't mean anything when they were getting rolled, because your aggressive allies in Doom House and friends knew Umbrella wouldn't do anything to protect either MHA or Sparta. I'm surprised MHA still has a treaty with you guys, guess it might shield them a little bit from getting declared on directly by you guys.

[Monster]

In addition, the treaty was only kept at an MDoAP in hopes of Umbrella severing DH and someone like the anti-MK individual winning the Presidency, so a treaty with Sparta fits my alliance a lot more anyway.

[Enamel32]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332465972' post='2941895']
Oh you mean the thing that I never actually said or asked of them? In fact what I said when notifying Sparta of our position was that if they were going to roll with XX then we were going to roll with PB. I completely understood that they wanted to put their bloc as their top priority but apparently it wasn't okay for us to do the same, as was evident by the ridiculous amount of temper tantrums I had to endure.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what you meant by the first sentence, but as for the rest of it, you committed to a coalition, not to PB. You committed PB to a coalition, regardless of the result of the chains, sure. Of course we are going to be mad about that. I fail to see why you are surprised by the described outrage.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1332466359' post='2941901']
I didn't exactly say that. I said that it was an excuse. Simply put, all that happened was that feelings about MK and the rest of your allies were broadcasted by someone who had the ammo. There was other stuff, too, which was considered resolved by the President. However, people wanted to cancel anyway and they didn't hesitate when they had an excuse for something they were planning to do anyway with regards to a treaty that only existed in an MDoAP form because I argued for it internally within Sparta's government.
[/quote]

Actually it was the constant dragging of feet when it came to actually doing something about you threatening us and invading our private infrastructure that was the straw that broke the camels back, I love how you keep omitting that little fact and downplaying it as if it wasn't a big deal. If it wasn't such a big deal then why did you come crawling to us on your knees offering to [ooc]pay for our forums[/ooc] after being caught red-handed to make us forget about what you did?

We weren't actually looking for an excuse to cancel, in fact when Luka approached me a few weeks prior to your glorious return he brought up the idea of downgrading and I kind of flipped out because I wanted to maintain that relationship, it had nothing to do with your lobbying to keep the treaty when you were in Sparta and more to do with the fact that almost all of Umbrella government wanted to try and make it work but when it became apparent that Sparta didn't really care too much about the threats and provocative behaviour coming from one of their government members(i.e: you) we decided we might as well pull the plug because it clearly wasn't going to work. In fact when word got out that they finally kicked your ass out a fair few people thought we should've kept it but by then the damage had been done and it was too late. In hindsight; yes we probably did act rashly wrt that cancellation but we were sick to death of your BS and Sparta's reluctance to do anything about you.

Also let me get this straight; you argued in favour of keeping the treaty but continued to act in a way which endangered the treaty to the point which brought us to cancelling it? That's genius.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Monster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1332466996' post='2941914']
Actually it was the constant dragging of feet when it came to actually doing something about you threatening us and invading our private infrastructure that was the straw that broke the camels back, I love how you keep omitting that little fact and downplaying it as if it wasn't a big deal. If it wasn't such a big deal then why did you come crawling to us on your knees offering to [ooc]pay for our forums[/ooc] after being caught red-handed to make us forget about what you did?

We weren't actually looking for an excuse to cancel, in fact when Luka approached me a few weeks prior to your glorious return he brought up the idea of downgrading and I kind of flipped out because I wanted to maintain that relationship, it had nothing to do with your lobbying to keep the treaty when you were in Sparta and more to do with the fact that almost all of Umbrella government wanted to try and make it work but when it became apparent that Sparta didn't really care too much about the threats and provocative behaviour coming from one of their government members(i.e: you) we decided we might as well pull the plug because it clearly wasn't going to work. In fact when word got out that they finally kicked your ass out a fair few people thought we should've kept it but by then the damage had been done and it was too late.

Also let me get this straight; you argued in favour of keeping the treaty but continued to act in a way which endangered the treaty to the point which brought us to cancelling it? That's genius.
[/quote]


Nope, usually when someone has leverage on you, you negotiate accordingly. You don't take some dumb cow position. I haven't acted on the leverage as of yet and I'd consider yourselves lucky for that.

And no, the logs show a completely different picture and I was told by Natan someone was planning to put forth cancellation prior to the twitter thing. Caught red-handed? I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal since I still had access despite handing it over a month earlier and the only purpose was for Umbrella to follow through on something they had committed to. I didn't come crawling. I simply wanted to do anything I could do to avoid getting booted because it would not only be harmful for me to get booted, but it would also be harmful to Sparta and I can't say it has been beneficial for anyone. Basically, it just gave me a bigger soapbox against you.

At the end of the day I provided more of a benefit to Sparta by being there than any de facto NAP with you could. Simple as that. Your opinions on my actions are stupid at best given the crap you yourselves have pulled on me and anything I did to you was entirely justified.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Sephiroth]

I think whats happened with Umbrella is they've burned enough bridges with all the alliances they once had strong relationships with, that now they feel Doom House is all they have left. So if they're not 100% loyal to Doom House they'll have no allies they can trust not to ditch them first chance they get. Would VE, MHA, FOK, IRON, Argent or anyone else but DH/NG have their back if they have any conflicting treaties to put them on the other side as Umbrella? At this point I doubt it, all of those alliances Umbrella has either been complicit in getting them rolled or one of their close allies rolled.

[Monster]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1332467372' post='2941919']
I think whats happened with Umbrella is they've burned enough bridges with all the alliances they once had strong relationships with, that now they feel Doom House is all they have left. So if they're not 100% loyal to Doom House they'll have no allies they can trust not to ditch them first chance they get. Would VE, MHA, FOK, IRON, Argent or anyone else but DH/NG have their back if they have any conflicting treaties to put them on the other side as Umbrella? At this point I doubt it, all of those alliances Umbrella has either been complicit in getting them rolled or one of their close allies rolled.
[/quote]

Depends on the context entirely.

In addition, given I had sorted things out with domisi and had generally avoided Umbrella prior to the twitter thing, which only happened because you couldn't be bothered to aid a few nations that I had requested be aided when people had slots idling is the most hilarious bit. No wonder GOD is beating you.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Roquentin

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Enamel32' timestamp='1332466949' post='2941913']
I'm not sure what you meant by the first sentence, but as for the rest of it, you committed to a coalition, not to PB. You committed PB to a coalition, regardless of the result of the chains, sure. Of course we are going to be mad about that. I fail to see why you are surprised by the described outrage.
[/quote]

By that logic then surely Sparta also commited itself to a coalition and not to XX. When the war broke out with TOP and co. hitting Polar, Sparta had already decided they were going to be rolling with that coalition which is odd considering I was told months prior to the war that it was highly unlikely that Sparta would want to side with Polar.