Phineas

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1335479316' post='2959884'] That's a good point. Manhatten Project should be removed. Nukes used to be prestigious. [/quote] I am not sure what I think of that, since it gives newer nations a fighting chance, but your comment really reminded me of this: [img]http://oi46.tinypic.com/2cwpr2r.jpg[/img] Are you a mutant?

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1335415997' post='2959591'] All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. Interpretation being 'right' therefor I am right because my interpretation prevails at the given time due to my might. Or in this case, the mercy boards is the prevailing interpretation at the time therefor it is right. Also no it's not a circular argument, whomever has the most power at the time also controls what is right. [/quote] Now you are arguing that might by [i]prevailing[/i] military interpretation makes right by [i]prevailing[/i] interpretation? That also does not follow logically. It would be as if the mightiest military power were to assert that unicorns exist. It does not follow that the prevailing interpretation regarding the existence of unicorns will always agree. Now, what you can say by what you've limited yourself to in terms is [i]might [b]can[/b] make right[/i], [b]but only if the prevailing military and opinionative interpretations of what is right are aligned[/b]. Based on what I've read here in the variety of views on tech raiding presented, I don't see how anyone can claim any such alignment of powers exists, no matter how broadly defined or individually interpreted. edit: to answer what you've added. I tried to meet you using your own terms above, since it is clear that what means something to most is not always interpreted the same way by you.

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1335225782' post='2958032'] Cross the line? All you did was re-emphasize my point.... that might does make right. Unless I'm missing something here. [/quote] I think what they are saying is that while your definitions of might are proper, what you have avoided is defining anything for "right," other than it being whatever might produces. This is not a logical conclusion. This also is why [b]how[/b] "might makes right" often is used in CN is in mostly fallacious ways: there is little or no consideration of what products result from manifestations of "might." All might makes right means in CN is might means power, which is really a tautology, which makes this a circular argument. For reference, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum"]Argumentum ad baculum[/url].

First, awesome responses and exchanges all around. That, above all else, makes this worthwhile. Second, keep and build on your feelings on reps and anything else like that and platform it. Third, yeah, I don't know how, but I forgot how much MK loves the spotlight. Fourth, yes, a lot of alliances are perfectly content with being followers. This is why we need good leaders. Fifth, thank you for this open discussion and I repeat my best wishes for Bal Masque. Sixth, time for bed here.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335250306' post='2958397'] Here goes: you're stating that my issues stem exclusively from a personal falling out with them rather than various policy disagreements and differences in attitude that already existed. The vast majority of alliances [b]do not[/b] benefit from the current power structure and some that do maintain ties to it will find themselves on the receiving end of its fury. I think something you don't understand is that eventually parts of a side get jettisoned and become the "next target" and some are traded in for another thing. Consequently, it is not beneficial to anyone outside of the "core" long-term to maintain the current power structure. Cannibalization is something that will always result from such power systems. Now, having an especially dominant political force can be avoided if enough people are willing to do their own thing. I don't see this as very likely as the mentality a lot of people have is "we just want to be left alone and we'll let someone else be in command of politics." As long as most people don't want to be in command of their own destiny, there will be an especially dominant political force. [/quote] In the days and weeks ahead, outline and present these policy disagreements and differences in attitude for the world to see, point by point. So far, most just see your agenda as centered on a personal falling out, which was why I completely empathized with you from the start, and still do. Then, let's focus on the why, outline your principle differences, not necessarily here, but later and somewhere else, be it in embassies or blogs or threads, in an organized fashion. Simply disregard the MK & co. personal attacks stuff, I think most see right through them. [quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1335250742' post='2958401'] If you accept that then what's wrong with this one? Pacifica was removed to do what, install MK? So you want to remove MK to install whom? Where does that get anyone, used by a new master who can carve off non-core neo-neo-hegemony alliances for the next target? You don't like the people in power, that's apparent. Stop acting like you don't like the play though, if all you want to do is change the actors. [/quote] Exactly. The world is tiring of the hegemonic game of musical chairs. [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335251030' post='2958402'] It certainly wasn't my intent or anyone's really to install MK. MK had the right underdog story and other people didn't want to compete for the spotlight. I don't like anyone having an excess of control, but it's inevitable until people stop trying to be "well we just want to be safe, we just care about what affects us directly right now." If anything, it was kind of dismaying and I've spoken in-depth on the subject. MK were the cool guys and everyone was at the Restaurant? They raided alliances before GOONS ever made a scene? so what, archon was the hero of CN. So with that being given, I would prefer a softer dominant power over the one that exists. There was a thread called "The IRON age" and I was asked in a certain an embassy what I expected to happen after. The issue is, the people who make the most sense to rule don't want it in many cases. Everyone assumed that was the case with Umbrella when it's only really been the case for the past maybe 9 months? [/quote] I agree, they really did have a great narrative with the terms they were under, etc. I also agree that they probably don't like being the center of attention now. Again, and not here, but in the days ahead, think about what you mean by a "softer" hegemonic power. Beyond not being a bully, what can you see the next power offering? The more you can center on in terms of principles, the better.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335249209' post='2958387'] I'm not making any normative claims on the whole "people are discarded when they're no longer useful" It's a descriptive claim and it doesn't really mean I agree with the mentality. In fact, I think, in the end doing that ends with you in a similar position to NPO when Karma came. The vision I have is not one where the dominant powers are dominant by virtue of their cultural hegemony which entices people to buy into how cool they are, but rather what the dominant power can offer you. There has been a hegemony of ideology and brute force and there's been the cool kind. I advocate a different one. [/quote] And this is why I continue to believe you have enormous potential for what I call "good." So far the different path you propose is simply unknown to the world at large. Work on communicating what the next dominant power you envision can offer and watch to see how and where things fall. Right now I think you are perceived as the retrospective Archon & his hollow platitudes. These are what have everyone in the natural "opposition" to the present powers so jaded and distrustful. Offer real, tangible principles you really believe and be judged.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335248607' post='2958382'] As long as they support you. Even if it was as bad as you put it, at least there'd be no BS. I don't know where sociopathy comes in. How is it my Achille's heel? I mean, I'm under no delusions that my alliance is a potential hegemonic power. It'd be moronic to think that. It's more directed to people who have the NS. [/quote] It's just about how one approaches politics. Think of alliances you like as ends and not means and you will go far.

[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1335247504' post='2958369'] So don't be Machiavellian or do? I'm not sure now. [/quote] Many of us still have much to learn, but I have faith. I, too, was once on the wrong path and know its powerful allure. It is hard to shake off the ways of the past, and it is especially hard not to cling to the old methods when you remember how well they worked. Eventually it will make sense. It may take years, but it will happen. [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335247619' post='2958370'] . Secure an independent base of support and don't rely on anyone long-term. There is a reason people were upset that I frequently made non-core alliances a priority in terms of keeping them happy. [/quote] This is your Achille's heel, Roq.

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1335245605' post='2958352'] I was just trying to make the point. You're actually more akin to a revolutionary/freedom fighter in mentaility, which is still a type of fringe loony in the right cases. It's the NWO man. They control what you eat, when you sleep, what you watch/hear/read, and what you think, man. They've got control man and unless we step up it's over. GAME OVER MAN. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4eEGeqC-8M]Roq Roq, fight da powah! [/url] I also take issue with what seems to be your political belief system, that is something modeled off a Machiavellian world view. At least from what I see and how I interpret it. The problem is that such a world view while having a solid basis is somewhat off the mark. [/quote] I don't know you, but you need to moderate your kool-aid consumption, even if just a little. Roquentin may be unpopular and even considered Machiavellian, and for good reasons based on the past and even present events, but when it comes to his knowledge of history and present trends, he is hardly a conspiracy theorist. When a person comments on things he or she knows are uncomfortable to certain powers, they already know and accept that some people will want to marginalize them. Calling them conspiracists is tired and simply not founded on reality. I suspect you already know this, but sometimes I wonder given the consistency of your OWF comments.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1335244780' post='2958326'] Doesn't your hate depend on the alliance you joined for the week? [/quote] Oh, wow, sick burn to the GOONS detractor. [quote name='bakamitai' timestamp='1335244892' post='2958329'] Congratulations to Sardonic for once again proving that might makes right. o/ [/quote] Uh oh. [quote name='Letum' timestamp='1335244897' post='2958330'] I only know a few of these guys, but I will assume the rest are as awesome as that image up at the top. [/quote] Ruh-roh... [quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1335245038' post='2958332'] I love Sardonic, and he knows why. [/quote] Oh snap. [quote name='Lady Red' timestamp='1335245047' post='2958333'] That is officially the trippiest panda I've ever seen. [/quote] What [i]is[/i] the NPO smoking? [quote name='Zeta Defender' timestamp='1335245085' post='2958334'] Well at least the panda is a cool feature [/quote] Or drinking? [quote name='Gandroff' timestamp='1335245087' post='2958335'] I love the title. [/quote] Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational NPO posting brigade! Oh and congrats to the newly promoted. May you be as awful as those who preceded you.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1335243701' post='2958308'] GOONS has follower alliances? [/quote] I dislike naming names, but I can. There is at least one major alliance that has molded its entire ethos around what they think the GOONS represent.

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1335227107' post='2958067'] These topics have always been retarded. Everyone who bothers to post in them is a retard. And now I'm a retard. Thanks a lot, retards. [/quote] Also, I do not think GOONS come even close to being WAE 4.0. One or two or three of their wannabe follower alliances, much better candidates.

@Kzoppistan: Sardonic is one smart cookie. One might even call his comments here regarding this treaty those of an obtuse sycophant. Wink, wink to you Sardie. I also remember that the Brehon-led NPO does not [i]necessarily[/i] have a problem with the GOONS, which is saying a LOT. I mean, the GOONS do have quite a good activity pulse, right? Ah, now that may require a blog post. Don't worry, not today. Fun treaty announcement, this. edit, grammar failures

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1335226978' post='2958064'] I would challenge the NPO isn't spread out there at all. We are focused and our allies share our philosophical views and future. Add to that honest communication... No sir, we are a direct and solid straight line. [/quote] Well, keep on doing what you are doing since, judging from the reactions from multiple corners of the web, [i]many[/i] seem to be counting on the NPO to show them a new way. That is a great political accomplishment alone. [quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1335228355' post='2958097'] That's a good trap question As it has been in the most recent conflicts our allies roll together. If there is something brewing that puts our allies against each other, we will as always work and communicate with them to find solutions. Again as evidenced by the last global conflict. [/quote] That [i][b]was[/b][/i] a good trap question. [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1335228496' post='2958098'] Spoken like a true politician. Anyway, again congrats on your treaty. [/quote] To be fair, not knowing what circumstances might fall into place before things are where they should be in the eyes of GATO and/or the NPO, this question is unanswerable. [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1335228839' post='2958106'] Congratulations on the treaty fellas. People can whine and moan all they want but I think NPO and CnG members (GATO in this instance) are making smart moves that are beneficial to both parties. [/quote] Only time will tell. [quote name='BarbulaM1' timestamp='1335229649' post='2958128'] It's a trap! But carry on... Congratulations guys, hope a closer friendship works out better this time around. o/ GATO o/ NPO [/quote] On Planet Bob, nearly every treaty is a trap! [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1335232755' post='2958192'] If only there were a more direct, efficient way of becoming aligned with a group of alliances all at once. [/quote] Yes, but incrementalist approaches inspire more hope and fear. [quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1335233686' post='2958201'] Pre-Karma NPO is rolling over in their grave [/quote] Somehow, I really doubt this. Now, congrats on the treaty, nearly "everyone" is counting on you. Also, brb, going to go put on my fire suit.

Congrats and best wishes!

As much as this was not the resolution any fair-minded person wanted to see, you put up one hell of a good fight Kaskus and Mongols! Your excellence on the battlefield is most admirable.

A lot of good observations in the OP. However, is it possible that raiding is just a symptom, or another side of the same coin? Explanation: I find the alliance system, as most currently view it, holds far more responsibility to why leaders choose to abandon their nations. [i]Most[/i] alliances, as currently conceived (those with forum participation & irc requirements, etc) simply are far too demanding of most leaders' time and energy. Further, once a leader joins an alliance, bonds with other members develop, which means leaders start thinking of their nations as extensions of their []ooc[]ooc[/]ooc[/] friendships and not for the politics of this "world." That, in my opinion, is the biggest threat to interesting politics and an explanation for the present state of this world's population of nation leaders. Rounding this out, my experience is that those who openly boast that they are not taking this world seriously are some of the worst offenders. Those who refuse to admit that they are nation leaders but something else here fool only themselves. What this kind of thinking leads to is people become too afraid to take chances because they think running their nation is not as worthwhile as being here for "whatever else it is they are here for" and the result is this ceases to be an interesting place. Summation: The alternative to being unaligned and getting raided is to join an alliance. My opinion is that while I am not a fan of raiding, alliance membership leads to nation leader burn-out and evacuation far more than being raided does.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334601553' post='2954358'] The mercy board is a vile excuse to debase and humiliate others and any pretense that it is any sort of tool of diplomacy is a joke. It may be fine for getting those clueless unaligned nations to come in and prostrate themselves for your amusement, but no self-respecting alliance should ever consider it. Even suggesting it is a slap in the face. I would be shocked that any one decided to meet you halfway by doing any inane request suggested, but I'm not, because it's clear that they had no idea what it is really about. You actually expect them to be reasonable now after they came and humored your request and then was so disrespected? Anyway, I don't really care what your faux justification are, I doubt you were going to let them off, anyway. You just wanted to see them humiliate themselves first. [/quote] Somehow this got buried. itsamystery.jpeg The mercy board humiliation process is what gassed up this fire in the first place and seeing Pandora's Box support it in their united actions is more than a little disappointing.

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1334890549' post='2956011'] Except, as a member of CoJ, you cannot speak for the member alliances of Pandora's Box nor realistically hypothesize about their reactions to this war. PB is a bloc formed on friendship, cooperation and understanding. CoJ wouldn't understand that, considering you tried to be part of the failed attempt to attack GOONS. [/quote] When one is in your place it is natural that you only see your friends as they want you to see them. Like I said, some you consider to be your friends, for whatever reasons, are hesitant to be completely honest with you. [quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1334890779' post='2956013'] The ends justify the means. [/quote]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1334889414' post='2956004'] A whore's a whore, no matter how you try to spin it. Now get back on the street corner and make Schattenmann some ducats. [/quote] This is probably another good reason why devolving into the use of such language is only helpful to a point. Dealing in the currency of truth rather than that of lies are two very different things. The salient point here is that were the member alliances of Pandora's Box honest with themselves, they never would have entered this war as a bloc, and at least one alliance would not have entered at all.

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1334885775' post='2955990'] I'm shocked. I would have thought higher of CoJ. Would have never pictured you being interested in prostitution. Although, I guess being attention whores is, in a sense, part of the worlds' oldest profession. [/quote] I think being called an attention whore for saying what one believes in is preferable to being a double-speaking treaty whore. If certain alliances would just call things as they are, PB would not even be in the war. For that matter, PB would not even exist.

[quote name='Courland' timestamp='1334872163' post='2955897'] Don't worry, were going to surrender. I promise were, brah. If only we we're stronger than were... [/quote] Don't fret, you've provided us with one of the few interesting things in alliance politics for 2 months now. In doing so, you've made a laughing stock out of an entire bloc. Given your numbers, that's quite an achievement and for that, I thank you! This all being OOC here, I can't help but also thank Sardonic.

How dare you insult these Zombie alliances and how they go to war for their bloc without thinking? You are correct though, and we do have to remind ourselves that even the old VE was not as chaste as some would have us believe either. But at least they usually did their whoring in Marriotts and Hiltons instead of roach motels like Pandora's box.

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1334873305' post='2955905'] I think they expect to not be insulted when a party makes a mistake. Also the Mercy Board has been there and operating under the same guidelines for years. The rules are pinned and are available for all requesting mercy. Also, it blatantly states that: Obviously Bitburg (fixed it to match Courland's correction above) didn't play nice and GOONS was disappointed. Since they were disappointed, the victim must now be destroyed. [/quote] Seeing you are a member of VE gov (but internal gov ops), is it your sense that the rest of your government also defends the GOONS so called "mercy" process? Because, you know... it's been a quite a few pages back, but your sovereign already has made it clear, and very forcefully so, that the Viridian Entente does not concern itself with how or why this war started. If you want to revise your comments before he reads what you wrote, I can be an understanding person.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1334801726' post='2955578'] Yea I agree Starfox. It's pretty dumb. [/quote] It's only dumb if you want peace at any price. Remember, Kaskus/Mongols also do not want any outside parties paying reps on their behalf precisely because it would signal the defeat of the principle for which they are fighting: do not reward bullying.